SFDanny

R+L=J v.164

259 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Maia said:

So what? Targaryens had been one of the lesser of 40 dragon-riding Houses and nothing that they have  accomplished on Dragonstone remotely compares to what the threesome achieved. And it is not believeable that the three-headed dragon of Targaryen sigil wouldn't be associated with "dragon has 3 heads" of the prophecy in the mind of people studying it. In fact, the 3 siblings may have been inspired by that very same prophecy to make their audacious move - and pick their sigil. It would feel like a rather contrived coincidence otherwise.

The prophecy of the promised prince is much older than the Targaryen sigil, going back at least a thousand years if we can believe Marwyn. That makes it possible that Aegon and his sister-wives were influenced by the prophecy when they chose their own sigil.

Even more so, if the prophecy was one of their reasons to invade Westeros in the first place. Aegon doesn't appear to be the guy who wanted power and glory of their own sake, and, quite frankly, the last dragonlord house should have been much more inclined to unite and subdue to the Daughters of Valyria than the savage backwater that were the Seven Kingdoms at this point.

If Aegon figured out that the prophecy referred to Westeros then this could have been the deciding factor. Not to mention that he and his sisters might have believed - at one point - that they were the three dragon heads the prophecy talked about. That might have been a very good reason to choose the sigil they chose, don't you think?

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Actually, there are some hints, IMHO. We know that the comet is significant for the Promised Prince prophecy and heralds his reveal.  Now, let's look at the timing of Harrenhal - the commonly accepted thinking among the fandom is that it happened a few months after the comet - that Elia was already pregnant with Aegon, but not yet showing. So, the timing of Harrenhal was not coincidental - Rhaegar was spurred on by the comet to make his bid for power, to seal his destiny as the tPP. Instead, he failed. And when his next child was a boy, he retroactively noticed that Aegon's conception was seemingly heralded by the comet  and also fit "born in smoke and salt" stipulation.

Harrenhal was planned long before Aegon's conception. And Rhaegar gave up all his covert Great Council plans when Aerys decided to attend the tourney personally.

But I really don't see what politicking has to do with the prophecy. The promised prince has some sort of prophesied destiny but nothing indicates that trying to take power from a Mad King has anything to do with it.

Whatever led Rhaegar to believe he wasn't the guy must have been something else. Something that really affected him. But we'll never know while we don't know the actual text of the prophecy. It may be possible that there are hints in the text that prince will face his destiny early in life, or something like that. This could explain why Rhaegar eventually thought that he wasn't the guy. And we do know that both Daenerys and Jon will have to deal with the challenges early in life.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

Now, we can be pretty confident that Rhaegar didn't consider generational difference to be an obstacle for "dragon has three heads" back when he believed himself to be tPP, because he and Viserys were actually of different generations and any other sibling he may have gotten would have been younger still. Neither did Aemon in AFFC.

But Rhaegar could also have lost the belief that he was the promised prince because he had no living siblings for as long as he did. He may have lost the belief that he was the promised prince before Viserys was even born, no?

3 hours ago, Maia said:

I also looks like Rhaegar  wasn't bothered by the lack of an obvious 3-rd head of the dragon  when he still considered himself tPP, if we are going either with "all male" or "siblings" hypothesis.  But after the birth of Aegon - "there must be one more".

Well, he followed his parents and Aemon in the belief that he was the one when they gave him the prophecy to read and told him about their interpretation of Summerhall. The fact that his parents didn't produce the brothers/siblings required for him to fulfill the prophecy may have convinced him otherwise by the, say, mid-270s.

3 hours ago, Maia said:

IMHO, there is a good case to be made for Rhaegar looking back at the possible reasons for his failure and concluding that lack of the third head fitting the criteria that led him to "one more",  was the sign that he wasn't tPP, after all. We also know that he shared his reasoning on Aegon being tPP with Aemon. But there is no hint in Aemon's ravings that generational differences were ever an issue in their wrong interpretations of the prophecy - only the sex of the tPP.

But what then is Rhaegar's reasoning then that he needs 'one more' after Aegon's birth. There are actually four descendants of Aerys and Rhaella out there at this point - Rhaegar himself, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Aegon. More than enough dragon heads already. And even three more if we counted Aerys and Rhaella themselves as well as Aemon.

The only way Rhaegar can make sense in the vision if he somehow developed the mad idea that he was the father of the entire savior trinity now. That could have been the case, of course, but it it did then Rhaegar was completely wrong there, and not justified in this thinking by the knowledge we have up to this point.

The chances of him having a prophetic dream or him receiving another personal prophecy (like Jaehaerys II did) are always there, of course, but if something of that sort happened we have yet to learn it.

The idea that Rhaegar's beliefs were shaped by the image of Aegon and his sister-wives is considerably less likely if you ask me.

In fact, the importance prophetic dreams get in the Dunk & Egg stories with both Daeron and Daemon the Younger having them (and apparently Aerion, Aegon V, and Aemon, too) makes it not unlikely at all that Rhaegar may have had them, too.

The truth behind the Lyanna obsession could simply be some sort of dream about a dragon springing forth from Lyanna's womb.

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On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Jon has more Stark-like features than any of his half-brothers.[3] He is graceful and quick, and has a lean build.[4] Jon has the long face of the Starks,[5][6] with dark,[4][6] brown hair[7][8] and grey eyes[6] so dark they almost seem black.[4]

Maybe his eyes are a mix of Rhaegar and Lyannas eyecoloring?

On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?

Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

I believe Ned not telling Jon of his parentage is an example of a noble lie. A untruth told and propegated to maintain cohesion in Westeros.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Jon would not be Rhaegars heir since Aegon son of Elia was still alive when Rhaegar left the 3 kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. If we accept that Jon is legitmate he would still be Aegon's heir not Rhaegars!

On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?

Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.

George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is alsothis SSM predating the worldbook.

On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

It is not about what one character sees polygamy as it is if the state, inteligentsia and relgious authorites accept it, they dont! The faith of the Seven views polygamy as immoral and unlawfull.

On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?

Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Rhaegar still had another son to be his heir when he left.

On 23.4.2017 at 4:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's CrannogmanHowland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

The people of planetos may never discover Jon's paretage. Even if Bran, Howland or someone else tells Jon of his parentage it may not change anything.

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1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

It is not about what one character sees polygamy as it is if the state, inteligentsia and relgious authorites accept it, they dont! The faith of the Seven views polygamy as immoral and unlawfull.

And incest is abomination in the eyes of gods old and new, and what did the state, inteligentsia and religious authorities do about Targaryen incest? Shuffled their feet and looked another way.

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And incest is abomination in the eyes of gods old and new, and what did the state, inteligentsia and religious authorities do about Targaryen incest? Shuffled their feet and looked another way.

but

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Posted (edited)

Edited: possible show spoiler, sorry

Edited by Aeron_Damphair

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On ‎10‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

The only way Rhaegar can make sense in the vision if he somehow developed the mad idea that he was the father of the entire savior trinity now. That could have been the case, of course, but it it did then Rhaegar was completely wrong there, and not justified in this thinking by the knowledge we have up to this point.

 

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!

I am curious to know who persuaded Rhaegar into thinking it was his son who fulfilled the prophecy. Before this it appears Aemon and Rhaegar believed it was Rhaegar himself who fulfilled it.

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12 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

"It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!

I am curious to know who persuaded Rhaegar into thinking it was his son who fulfilled the prophecy. Before this it appears Aemon and Rhaegar believed it was Rhaegar himself who fulfilled it.

That is the other problem. I think he must first have lost the belief in himself, the belief that he was the promised prince. Only then would he have been open to the idea that signs and portents - like the comet that was seen over KL in the night of Aegon's conception - were pointing to somebody else rather than him.

What made him lose the faith that he was the One is completely unknown at this point. Perhaps, as I've suggested, the fact that his parents were unable to produce the other two dragon heads? Perhaps the lack of signs and portents indicating that the darkness would return to the world and the cold winds were rising, etc.? We don't know.

What we do know is that the Ghost's prophecy that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella means that descendant of theirs could be either the promised prince or the father/mother of the promised prince.

Rhaegar would have had a certain significance as Aerys-Rhaella's firstborn son. While he was their only child he was either the promised prince already, or the father or ancestor of the promised prince (it is not specified when exactly the promised prince is going to be born). But as Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Daenerys are born things get much more complicated. Now there is a 20% chance that Rhaegar is the promised prince or the father/ancestor of the promised prince, no longer a 100& chance. Instead it could be Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon, or Daenerys.

I'm not sure if 'persuaded' has to mean 'persuaded by somebody' instead of 'reaching a conclusion by yourself' but if it implies that some other party was involved I'd be interested to learn who that was, too. But it could be something as trivial as somebody telling Rhaegar about the comet. We don't know whether he himself looked out the widow in the night Aegon was conceived.

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Posted (edited)

On 18/08/2017 at 3:40 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is the other problem. I think he must first have lost the belief in himself, the belief that he was the promised prince. Only then would he have been open to the idea that signs and portents - like the comet that was seen over KL in the night of Aegon's conception - were pointing to somebody else rather than him.

What made him lose the faith that he was the One is completely unknown at this point. Perhaps, as I've suggested, the fact that his parents were unable to produce the other two dragon heads? Perhaps the lack of signs and portents indicating that the darkness would return to the world and the cold winds were rising, etc.? We don't know.

What we do know is that the Ghost's prophecy that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella means that descendant of theirs could be either the promised prince or the father/mother of the promised prince.

Rhaegar would have had a certain significance as Aerys-Rhaella's firstborn son. While he was their only child he was either the promised prince already, or the father or ancestor of the promised prince (it is not specified when exactly the promised prince is going to be born). But as Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Daenerys are born things get much more complicated. Now there is a 20% chance that Rhaegar is the promised prince or the father/ancestor of the promised prince, no longer a 100& chance. Instead it could be Viserys, Rhaenys, Aegon, or Daenerys.

I'm not sure if 'persuaded' has to mean 'persuaded by somebody' instead of 'reaching a conclusion by yourself' but if it implies that some other party was involved I'd be interested to learn who that was, too. But it could be something as trivial as somebody telling Rhaegar about the comet. We don't know whether he himself looked out the widow in the night Aegon was conceived.

Just spitballing here, but how about Rhaegar realized Elia's children were not fathered by him. Since he knew the Dragon needs 3 heads, he could still have believed himself to be the first head. The vision Dany sees is then of Rhaegar at Jon's birth, naming Jon Aegon and stating that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

But that only gives the Dragon two heads - Rhaegar and Jon. Rhaegar then rightly states that there must be one more. The third head being Dany, who is not yet born at that point.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just spitballing here, but how about Rhaegar realized Elia's children were not fathered by him. Since he knew the Dragon needs 3 heads, he could still have believed himself to be the first head. The vision Dany sees is then of Rhaegar at Jon's birth, naming Jon Aegon and stating that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

But that only gives the Dragon two heads - Rhaegar and Jon. Rhaegar then rightly states that there must be one more. The third head being Dany, who is not yet born at that point.

The problem with this is The Citadel entry which states that Martin confirmed that particular vision is Elia, Rhaegar and newborn Aegon. I doubt Ran would fabricate such a thing.

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3 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

The problem with this is The Citadel entry which states that Martin confirmed that particular vision is Elia, Rhaegar and newborn Aegon. I doubt Ran would fabricate such a thing.

Ok. Sounds vaguely familiar but I seem to have forgotten that SSM entry. Fair enough.

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just spitballing here, but how about Rhaegar realized Elia's children were not fathered by him. Since he knew the Dragon needs 3 heads, he could still have believed himself to be the first head. The vision Dany sees is then of Rhaegar at Jon's birth, naming Jon Aegon and stating that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

The very idea that the father of Elia's children wasn't Rhaegar doesn't make any sense. We have no reason to believe that. Why not assume Rodrik Cassel or Maester Luwin is the father of all the Stark children? There is about as much evidence for that than the idea that Elia wasn't faithful to her princely husband. If we doubt Rhaegar is the father of Elia's children who could basically doubt the parentage of all of other children. Perhaps Steffon Baratheon is also not the father of Robert, Stannis, and Renly? Or Jaehaerys II not the father of Aerys II and Rhaella? 

Elia wasn't the kind of woman who could have entertained any lovers because her health issues made pregnancies very risky. We know she must have gotten pregnant shortly after her wedding, and afterwards she was six months confined to her bed because the pregnancy and birth took such a toll on her. And then we actually know that Rhaegar knew the night in which Aegon was conceived. That all means she actually did have sex with Rhaegar. One would assume she would not have wanted to carry the children of some lover, so she would actually have taken measures to prevent a pregnancy to not risk her own life if she had entertained a lover. But then she would not have gotten pregnant at all.

We know that Rhaegar was the one who wanted sons. He had dynastic and prophetic reasons to ensure the continuation of the Targaryen line. If Elia had cuckolded Rhaegar that would have been treason. And if Rhaegar had found that out the story would have spread, most likely ending in her being burned alive. Keep in mind that she spent her last months as Aerys' hostage. If he had known what she did she would have died for that.

In addition, we do know they resided on Dragonstone, a much smaller castle where, most likely, mainly Rhaegar's friends and people were living with them. Even if Elia had wanted to have sex with some other men I doubt she ever got the opportunity.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that Rhaegar was the one who wanted sons. He had dynastic and prophetic reasons to ensure the continuation of the Targaryen line. If Elia had cuckolded Rhaegar that would have been treason. And if Rhaegar had found that out the story would have spread, most likely ending in her being burned alive. Keep in mind that she spent her last months as Aerys' hostage. If he had known what she did she would have died for that.

In this thread people were debating about Ashara's reasons for suicide and the possibilty of a baby swap with Elia came up.  So, some believe that Aegon wasn't even Elia's.

I myself even speculated (only for the sake of debate) that perhaps it was the revelation of Elia's baby identity that compelled Rhaegar to seek Lyanna in order to have a legitimate heir or to generate the real "prince that was promised" (thus supporting the Ashara's baby swap theory on the misteryous reasons that lead Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna).

As much as it is crackpot, the finding out of an heir's illegitimacy seems to be a stronger (and more realistic) justification for Rhaegar's delayed infidelity than a simple crush on Lyanna or an esoteric desire to generate the third head of the dragon.

However, I must admit: it still doesn't fit into the larger picture.

Edited by Ckram

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3 hours ago, Ckram said:

In this thread people were debating about Ashara's reasons for suicide and the possibilty of a baby swap with Elia came up.  So, some believe that Aegon wasn't even Elia's.

Well, there is really no reason to believe a child of Ashara's would have looked like Elia's Aegon. She may have had purple eyes but she did have dark hair. And if Rhaegar was the father of such a child (which could have given him the Valyrian looks) why on earth should he want Lyanna if he could have Ashara?

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

I myself even speculated (only for the sake of debate) that perhaps it was the revelation of Elia's baby identity that compelled Rhaegar to seek Lyanna in order to have a legitimate heir or to generate the real "prince that was promised" (thus supporting the Ashara's baby swap theory on the misteryous reasons that lead Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna).

If we assume such things which are not really hinted at in the text we could just as well assume that all the three Tully children are Walder Frey's love children with Minisa Whent. It is possible that they had an affair, right?

Or take any other main character. Any husband could have been cuckolded by his wife while the author and the characters weren't looking. But we usually get hints when this is the case.

In Rhaegar's case we have every reason to believe that Aegon is his son as well as every reason to believe that the fact Elia could either no longer have children or no longer risk becoming pregnant after Aegon's birth is what caused Rhaegar to look for another woman to father a son on, or even to marry.

If Rhaegar had had any reason to believe his children by Elia were not his we would know about that as of yet, too. Or would at least have some hint in that direction. We have gotten a couple of Martell POVs so far, not to mention Jon Connington. Some of these people would have known something.

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

As much as it is crackpot, the finding out of an heir's illegitimacy seems to be a stronger (and more realistic) justification for Rhaegar's delayed infidelity than a simple crush on Lyanna or an esoteric desire to generate the third head of the dragon.

Rhaegar was a Targaryen, and they have tendency to do mad thing. They don't have to go clinically insane to follow their passions (even Robb did that). It is not just Prince Daemon throwing his place at Rhaenyra's side away for fourteen-year-old peasant girl (and then committing a suicide attack atop the Gods Eye) but also Egg and his sons who followed where their hearts led them. That is not uncommon, even if there are no prophecies in the mix. Which clearly were there in Rhaegar's case.

How he thought he could get away with taking Lyanna and making her his second wife is unclear. But it seems clear that he did. But Prince Duncan also didn't really care about the consequences when he married his Jenny, so this is not exactly something that's unheard of at all.

And in the end all of Egg's sons - including Rhaegar's own grandfather and grandmother - got away with their marriage choices. What should actually have dissuaded and discouraged Rhaegar may actually have encouraged him. There were wars and rebellions fought over this, but the Targaryens won in the end. Rhaegar clearly was fool enough to assume prophecy and destiny would guide and protect him ... but they did not.

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On 8/1/2017 at 7:41 AM, Lord Varys said:

Again, show me the evidence that Rhaegar thought Rhaenys were the first dragon head alongside Aegon. Don't you see what problems it causes if we think Rhaegar thought Rhaenys counted? Then there would already have been three Targaryens of the same generation - Viserys, Rhaenys, and Aegon. There would be no need for a third head.

Viserys is not in the same generation as Rhaenys and Aegon, he is Rhaegar's brother.

Other than that minor correction, I tend to agree with you here.

According to Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar in the HotU, Rhaegar believes his son will be the P that was P'd. He also tells Elia the dragon must have three heads. I believe Elia's deteriorating health was a strong motivation for Rhaegar's infidelity. Later, Maestor Aemon (who we know had correspondence with Rhaegar about this specific prophesy) is surprised to find that the Valyrian word for prince actually isn't gender specific. I take this to mean that Rhaegar believed they had to be males as well.

Sorry that isn't the most eloquently written  

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"The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."

Can we take this to mean that this vision of Rhaegar is accepting Dany as one of the heads, and that Young Griff is indeed truly Aegon? And the 'one more that must be' is Jon? Of course it's cryptic but there is obviously more in here than could possibly just be in Dany's sub-conscience, no?

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45 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

Viserys is not in the same generation as Rhaenys and Aegon, he is Rhaegar's brother.

Other than that minor correction, I tend to agree with you here.

Oh, I meant that Viserys was of the same generation as Rhaenys and Aegon in the sense that he was much younger than his brother Rhaegar and much closer in age to Rhaenys and Aegon. I know he was technically their uncle but had they all grown up together he, Daenerys, Rhaenys, and Aegon could essentially have been all raised as siblings while Rhaegar would have been as much a father figure to them as Aerys.

45 minutes ago, Khal Pod said:

According to Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar in the HotU, Rhaegar believes his son will be the P that was P'd. He also tells Elia the dragon must have three heads. I believe Elia's deteriorating health was a strong motivation for Rhaegar's infidelity. Later, Maestor Aemon (who we know had correspondence with Rhaegar about this specific prophesy) is surprised to find that the Valyrian word for prince actually isn't gender specific. I take this to mean that Rhaegar believed they had to be males as well.

Sorry that isn't the most eloquently written.

Never mind, it is basically my point, too. Rhaegar apparently wanted sons, and they believed that the promise prince had to be male. And there is no hint that they ever cared about women there or thought that the three dragon heads must all be the children of Rhaegar's. So Viserys could also have been a candidate.

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9 hours ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

Wasn't Viserys only four years old at the time of the usurper's rebellion?

I think he was eight.

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Posted (edited)

Viserys' date of birth is given to be 276AC.

That makes him seven in 283AC when most of the Rebellion happened and his brother's and father's deaths made him King.

He was eight when he was fully orphaned and spirited away from Dragonstone to Essos in 284AC.

 

Edited by TMIFairy

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40 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Viserys' date of birth is given to be 276AC.

That makes him seven in 283AC when most of the Rebellion happened and his brother's and father's deaths made him King.

He was eight when he was fully orphaned and spirited away from Dragonstone to Essos in 284AC.

 

unless Jon was already born, and was a legitimate child of Rhaegar. The Crowned Prince's son comes before a second son, if I'm not mistaken.

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