Grazdan zo Azer

Why Aerys killed Brandon?

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Posted (edited)

Aerys took Jaime and Elia as "captives" against Tywin and Doran. But Brandon alive could be more important:

  • Ned Stark couldn't take action to gather troops in North quickly.
  • Stark-Tully alliance couldn't rise so easily since wedding was cancelled.

Edit: Compare it to Ned's execution and how Tywin and Tyrion reacted to it.

Edited by Brandon Baratheon

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Posted (edited)

Because Brandon committed a crime so unspeakably vile that he had to be executed.  He rode in to the Red Keep, surrounded by his future bannermen, all fully armed, threatening to kill Prince Rhaegar.  No lord would ever allow such impudence to go unpunished.  The king could never allow Brandon to leave with his life.  That Stark idiot deserved to be flayed and salted over the course of ten years for his cheek.  

I am sure Brandon was tortured and put to the question.  Probably by Varys.  He would have revealed everything by the end.  He'll be Lord Chatty before too long.  I believe he sang about the plot called Southron Ambitions and that was why Aerys lured Rickard to the city.  

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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26 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Because Brandon committed a crime so unspeakably vile that he had to be executed.  He rode in to the Red Keep, surrounded by his future bannermen, all fully armed, threatening to kill Prince Rhaegar.  No lord would ever allow such impudence to go unpunished.  The king could never allow Brandon to leave with his life.  That Stark idiot deserved to be flayed and salted over the course of ten years for his cheek.  

I am sure Brandon was tortured and put to the question.  Probably by Varys.  He would have revealed everything by the end.  He'll be Lord Chatty before too long.  I believe he sang about the plot called Southron Ambitions and that was why Aerys lured Rickard to the city.  

What? Huh?

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Because Aerys II is a nutjob who seeks excuse to burn people alive. You don't expect him to make rational decisions right?

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6 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Because Aerys II is a nutjob who seeks excuse to burn people alive. You don't expect him to make rational decisions right?

Short, sweet, and to the point.

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Brandon committed treason. Image if 5 guys went to the White House with loaded Machine Guns and demanded that on of the presidents children die and their spouse be returned to them. They would likely get shot on the spot.

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Well, Brandon had committed treason, so the execution in and of itself would not be all that unjustified. However, considering the political fuck-up his own son had just caused with Lyanna, a sane, smart Aerys would probably have used Brandon as leverage to calm the situation down. Certainly, the Stark family would have to be punished but Brandon might have been given his life and freedom in exchange for, say, Ned and Benjen as royal 'guests' or the like. Rickard and Aerys could certainly have worked out something cordial; indeed, considering the severity of Brandon's crime Aerys might actually have been able to make Rickard more loyal with a calm head and a strong but fair deal.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I am sure Brandon was tortured and put to the question.  Probably by Varys.  He would have revealed everything by the end.  He'll be Lord Chatty before too long.  I believe he sang about the plot called Southron Ambitions and that was why Aerys lured Rickard to the city.  

Jaime makes no mention of torture, or of Brandon appearing tortured, despite the detail he gives us regarding his execution and the execution of Rickard. Care to supply some evidence that Rickard was plotting something treasonous that justified a lack of a trial? Also, were the fathers of all of Brandon's companions part of the plot as well? Arryn, Royce, Mallister and Glover were all traitors too? You can't just state that this was the case with a total lack of textual evidence. All we know about Rickard is that he had 'Southron Ambitions' - and that comes from a source whose reliability is unknown. And Southron Ambitions could be anything from plans to replace the Targaryens to making the Starks slightly more important in court politics.

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2 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Well, Brandon had committed treason, so the execution in and of itself would not be all that unjustified. However, considering the political fuck-up his own son had just caused with Lyanna, a sane, smart Aerys would probably have used Brandon as leverage to calm the situation down. Certainly, the Stark family would have to be punished but Brandon might have been given his life and freedom in exchange for, say, Ned and Benjen as royal 'guests' or the like. Rickard and Aerys could certainly have worked out something cordial; indeed, considering the severity of Brandon's crime Aerys might actually have been able to make Rickard more loyal with a calm head and a strong but fair deal.

Jaime makes no mention of torture, or of Brandon appearing tortured, despite the detail he gives us regarding his execution and the execution of Rickard. Care to supply some evidence that Rickard was plotting something treasonous that justified a lack of a trial? Also, were the fathers of all of Brandon's companions part of the plot as well? Arryn, Royce, Mallister and Glover were all traitors too? You can't just state that this was the case with a total lack of textual evidence. All we know about Rickard is that he had 'Southron Ambitions' - and that comes from a source whose reliability is unknown. And Southron Ambitions could be anything from plans to replace the Targaryens to making the Starks slightly more important in court politics.

Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon is one evidence.  

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Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Brandon committed treason. Image if 5 guys went to the White House with loaded Machine Guns and demanded that on of the presidents children die and their spouse be returned to them. They would likely get shot on the spot.

Where does the machine gun comes from all of a sudden.  Because a whole bunch of knigths ride with their swords to KL? That's their right, no?

The men sent to KL in aGoT over Gregor's crimes did somethign similar. They rode as hell to KL, armed, and then sought audience at court.

Haven't heard of any rules that knights are to give up their arms when they walk in. Might be. But if there isn't. Apparently knights are allowed to walk in with swords on their hip.

If I remember some of those in aGoT were also quite hotheated over Gregor.

While I agree that Brandon was stupidly hotheaded to challenge a crown prince (who isn't there), seeking address at court and make his complaint, no matter how emotional, is quite within his feudal right. Where else is he to "charge the crown prince of a crime" than at the court of Aerys?

Edited by sweetsunray

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Lady Dustin's conversation with Theon is one evidence.  

I addressed this in my post but 'Southron Ambitions' is so vague that it cannot possibly be used as evidence of treason. It could mean something like improving the relations between the North and the rest of Westeros. It could refer to more interest in the politics at court. It could refer to Rickard having ambitions of becoming Hand of the King or having Ned joining the Kingsguard or whatever. It's so vague that you can read whatever you want into it.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Where does the machien gun comes from all of a sudeden.  Because a whole bunch of knigths ride with their swords to KL? That's their right, no?

The men sent to KL in aGoT over Gregor's crimes did somethign similar. They rode as hell to KL, armed, and then sought audience at court.

Haven't heard of any rules that knights are to give up their arms when they walk in. Might be. But if there isn't. Apparently knights are allowed to walk in with swords on their hip.

If I remember some of those in aGoT were also quite hotheated over Gregor.

While I agree that Brandon was stupidly hotheaded to challenge a crown prince (who isn't there), seeking address at court and make his complaint, no matter how emotional, is quite within in feudal right.

Brandon and his thugs rode in and threatened Rhaegar.  If a bunch of rough looking, angry men came in with their weapons and entered your living room, what would you do?  Many people in the U.S. would shoot them down.  

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1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

I addressed this in my post but 'Southron Ambitions' is so vague that it cannot possibly be used as evidence of treason. It could mean something like improving the relations between the North and the rest of Westeros. It could refer to more interest in the politics at court. It could refer to Rickard having ambitions of becoming Hand of the King or having Ned joining the Kingsguard or whatever. It's so vague that you can read whatever you want into it.

I don't have my books with me.  I will reply when I get home.  Suffice it to say, Rickard must have known that his planned alliances would threaten his king.  Those alliances would elevate his influence to the point where he could become a threat to his monarch.  He had to know, unless he knows nothing like his grandson Jon, that the monarch could never allow his alliances to form.  

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Brandon and his thugs rode in and threatened Rhaegar.  If a bunch of rough looking, angry men came in with their weapons and entered your living room, what would you do?  Many people in the U.S. would shoot them down.

It is a COURT room, where audiences are held for people to petition if someone else broke the king's peace. When Rhaegar plucked Lyanna from the road, he broke the king's peace, and her family is within their rights to ride to the king's court, swords on their hips at galopping pace, and charge Rhaegar.

It isn't our living room. It's a bunch of guys with swords riding into a castle with dozen times a number of knights, houseguards, kingsgards, city guards, ... and they all carry the same pointy weapon.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

It is a COURT room, where audiences are held for people to petition if someone else broke the king's peace.

It isn't our living room. It's a bunch of guys with swords riding into a castle with dozen times a number of knights, houseguards, kingsgards, city guards, ... and they all carry the same pointy weapon.

 

Even more so.  Brandon did not humbly seek an audience, he demanded Rhaegar to come out and threatened his life.  Would you expect to threaten a judge in his court room and get away with it?

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Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't have my books with me.  I will reply when I get home.  Suffice it to say, Rickard must have known that his planned alliances would threaten his king.  Those alliances would elevate his influence to the point where he could become a threat to his monarch.  He had to know, unless he knows nothing like his grandson Jon, that the monarch could never allow his alliances to form.  

Making alliances with other houses is not treason. The King has no right to stop legitimate marriages. Hell, Aerys had several opportunities to sabotage an alliance by becoming part of it. Engage Edmure or Benjen to Rhaenys and invite him to court, invite Rickard to sit on your council (far away from his troops and lords) etc. Murdering your lords because they're building alliances (which is what lords do) is wrong and, above all, just lazy and stupid.

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13 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I addressed this in my post but 'Southron Ambitions' is so vague that it cannot possibly be used as evidence of treason. It could mean something like improving the relations between the North and the rest of Westeros. It could refer to more interest in the politics at court. It could refer to Rickard having ambitions of becoming Hand of the King or having Ned joining the Kingsguard or whatever. It's so vague that you can read whatever you want into it.

Exactly. It can even be misdirection from Barbrey Dustin, or she could be just plain wrong. As you said before, Dustin's reliability is, as of yet, unproven. 

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OK, I'll take this on. 

Brandon was going down there to get justice and vengeance. He brought some of his men, sure, to guard him and to show he means business. High lords do not travel alone.

The way I read it, he was calling out Rhaegar to fight him one on one. But some points: 

1) Challenging another lord to a consensual fight is not illegal.

2) Accusing a prince of kidnapping your sister is not illegal. 

3) Calling someone a coward so that they demand trial by combat is not illegal.

4) Murdering someone during trial by combat is not illegal. 

Which I take to be the entire point of what Brandon was doing. Was he doing it in a really stupid way? Hell yes. Was it an insult to do it in the street like that? Hell yes. Was it the kind of thing that a tyrannical lunatic would punish, even if he had no clear legal reason? Hell yes.

Was it illegal? I don't think so. If it had worked, it would have been fucking legendary. 

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1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Because Aerys II is a nutjob who seeks excuse to burn people alive. You don't expect him to make rational decisions right?

Agreed.

 

1 minute ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

OK, I'll take this on. 

Brandon was going down there to get justice and vengeance. He brought some of his men, sure, to guard him and to show he means business. High lords do not travel alone.

The way I read it, he was calling out Rhaegar to fight him one on one. But some points: 

1) Challenging another lord to a consensual fight is not illegal.

2) Accusing a prince of kidnapping your sister is not illegal. 

3) Calling someone a coward so that they demand trial by combat is not illegal.

4) Murdering someone during trial by combat is not illegal. 

Which I take to be the entire point of what Brandon was doing. Was he doing it in a really stupid way? Hell yes. Was it an insult to do it in the street like that? Hell yes. Was it the kind of thing that a tyrannical lunatic would punish, even if he had no clear legal reason? Hell yes.

Was it illegal? I don't think so. If it had worked, it would have been fucking legendary. 

Pretty much, it was a case of Do Not Taunt Cthulu.

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1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Because Aerys II is a nutjob who seeks excuse to burn people alive. You don't expect him to make rational decisions right?

Who wanted to keep his son's wife captive?

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39 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Even more so.  Brandon did not humbly seek an audience, he demanded Rhaegar to come out and threatened his life.  Would you expect to threaten a judge in his court room and get away with it?

Rheagar isn't the judge, he's the accused. Aerys is the judge and Brandon made no accusation or challenge or threat against the king.

Brandon has a legal right to seek recourse, even from a crown prince, if that crown prince breaks the king's peace. 

Was Brandon stupid? Yes. Should he have been smarter and try to tackle seeking redress differently? Sure. But crown princes don't have a legal right to abduct women from the road. It's breaking the king's peace. They can try to get away with that with common women. But doing that with the daughter of a warden will certainly be followed up with a demand in court.

What Brandon was doing wasn't treason. It was stupid.   

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