manchester_babe

Did Robert Know Of His Targaryen Blood?

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Did Robert Know That Was Barley Related To The Targs?

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Yes. It's his ''legal'' claim to deposing the Targaryens, but he obviously didn't consider himself as one.

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Of course he did, but he didn't consider himself a Targaryen but a Baratheon.

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Of course he knew it. Everyone knew it. That was the only reason why he was accepted as a King.

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On 10/3/2017 at 8:34 AM, Dragonsbone said:

Of course he knew it. Everyone knew it. That was the only reason why he was accepted as a King.

really?

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3 minutes ago, manchester_babe said:

really?

Not sure if that was why he was accepted as King.

But it was the rationale as for why he was chosen. 

Also, another way to phrase your question is Did Robert know who his grandmother was?

Phrased like that I think its pretty clear what the answer is. 

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Posted (edited)

Father of Robert, Stannis and Renly, Steffon Baratheon was cousin (once removed) of Mad King Aerys.

Steffon's mother was a Targaryen Princess Rhaelle. She was aunt of Mad King, and sister of both his parents - Shaera and Jaehaerys Targaryens.

Shaera, Jaehaerys, their older brother Duncan, and their father Aegon V, all died in a fire at Summerhall. Their younger brother Daeron died in a battle even before that.

So Mad King Aerys, his sister-wife Rhaella, their three children (Crown Prince Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys), and their aunt Rhaelle (Robert's paternal grandmother), and her son Steffon Baratheon (and his three sons) were the only remaining Targaryens.

Rhaelle died apparently from old age. Her son Steffon and his wife died in a storm, when their son Robert was 16 years old. Aerys, Rhaella and Rhaegar died in Robert's rebellion. Viserys and Daenerys escaped from Westeros. So Robert's claim of Iron Throne was totally legal. He and his two brothers were the only known people in Westeros that had Targaryen blood. That's also reason why Stannis claimed Iron Throne after Robert's death (because he was also partially a Targaryen, same as Robert). That's also the reason why Renly declared himself King.

The three of them were 25% Targaryens from their grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, 25% Baratheons from their grandfather Ormund Baratheon, 25% Estermont from their maternal grandfather (whose daughter Cassana Estermont was Robert's mother), and 25% unknown from their maternal grandmother.

Edited by Megorova

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On 10/4/2017 at 6:43 PM, manchester_babe said:

really?

Not quite. It was the technical reason why - other houses probably have more valyrian blood in them than he does; the real reason is he quite simply reached the steps by force and force conquers all.

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On 10/4/2017 at 11:17 AM, Megorova said:

Father of Robert, Stannis and Renly, Steffon Baratheon was cousin (once removed) of Mad King Aerys.

Steffon's mother was a Targaryen Princess Rhaelle. She was aunt of Mad King, and sister of both his parents - Shaera and Jaehaerys Targaryens.

Shaera, Jaehaerys, their older brother Duncan, and their father Aegon V, all died in a fire at Summerhall. Their younger brother Daeron died in a battle even before that.

None of that is true in the show. Aerys II's father is named Aegon. And the DVD extras make it clear that this is not a mistake—Jaehaerys, Shaera, and Rhaelle do not exist, and Aerys and Rhaella are Aegon V's children, between Duncan and Daeron. (Apparently they decided it would be better if Aemon were Dany's great-uncle instead of great-great-uncle, and GRRM figured out what to change to make it work.)

Meanwhile, Robert is never said to have a Targaryen grandmother, or to be one quarter Targaryen, he's just said to have "more Targaryen blood" than any of the other rebels. Steffon is mentioned in the DVD extras, but neither of his parents are named—nor are, in fact, any Baratheons before Steffon other than an unnamed "Lord Baratheon" in one of the histories.

If you're willing to make a wild supposition that contradicts the books, but doesn't contradict anything we're told about the show, Rhaelle could exist, and be Aerys's and Rhaella's aunt, and be Steffon's mother. The evidence for this is that Aegon V appears to have married a Targaryen rather than a Blackwood in Dany's family tree. if there's one extra sister who wasn't in the books, there could be tw, and the second one could be Rhaelle. Pretty flimsy, but otherwise, all we have is "some Targaryen blood" and nothing more to go on.

 

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, falcotron said:

None of that is true in the show.

All of that is from the book.

13 hours ago, falcotron said:

Meanwhile, Robert is never said to have a Targaryen grandmother, or to be one quarter Targaryen, he's just said to have "more Targaryen blood" than any of the other rebels.

In the books he is 25% Targaryen. On the show they didn't bothered with family trees, or bloodline explanations. They did said on the show, that Robert had more Targaryen blood than others, but they didn't elaborated any further. Because those that would be interested to get more info about it, could go and read the books.

They changed some stuff, but not the core. Show-Robert also had Targaryens among his ancestors. It doesn't matter who exactly they were.

Quote

Steffon is mentioned in the DVD extras, but neither of his parents are named—nor are, in fact, any Baratheons before Steffon other than an unnamed "Lord Baratheon" in one of the histories.

Actually no.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lineages_and_Histories_of_the_Great_Houses_of_the_Seven_Kingdoms

There was Orys Baratheon bastard half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror, first Lord Paramount of Stormlands, and his wife Argalia nee Durrandon.

There was their daughter Ethelide Baratheon, that at the age of fifteen, eloped with a hedge knight and was never seen again.

There was their second daugther Theresa Baratheon.

And their two sons Mychal and Raymont (who was in Kingsguard of Aenys Targaryen, and to whom High Sparrow was referring "A few of the Faith Militant's more... militant members even scaled the walls of the castle and would have slain the king and his family had a knight of the Kingsguard not intervened."). He was knighted at age 23 by Lord Commander Serwyn Errol, and died while saving Aenys and his family from fanatics.

Robert's parents were Steffon Baratheon, and Cassana nee Estermont. Steffon was son of Ormund Baratheon. His father was Lyonel Baratheon. And it looks like this Lyonel was married with a Targaryen Princess. Because in his entry in Lineage book, there's written:

"LYONEL BA...

born to Lord...

and Lady ME...

Storm's End...

Aegon's Land...

of eye. Wed to...

TARGARYEN at...

of one son,....."

In Robert's own entry there's written:

"ROBERT BARATHEON first of his

name. Born to Lord STEFFON BARATHEON

and Lady CASSANA BARATHEON at

Storm's End in the 252nd year after

Aegon's Landing. Black of hair, brown

of eye, strong of bone and sinew. Wed to

CERSEI of the house LANNISTER at

the GREAT SEPT of BAELOR at

King's Landing."

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/0/0b/Steffon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160804233823

So in Lyonel's entry there's writen "Wed to "name" of the house TARGARYEN at..."

Lyonel - Ormund - Steffon - Robert.

So show Robert has 12,5% of Targaryen blood. In GOT his great grandmother was Targaryen.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)

On 6.10.2017 at 10:55 PM, Фейсал said:

Not quite. It was the technical reason why - other houses probably have more valyrian blood in them than he does; the real reason is he quite simply reached the steps by force and force conquers all.

Like which house? 

House Baratheon has Targaryen blood through Orys Baratheon, the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror, Princess Rhaelle Targaryen (daughter of Aegon V and grandmother to Robert, Stannis, and Renly). So Robbert has has at least 25% Targaryen Blood, since his grandmother was a Targaryen. 

The next House that comes to mind is House Velaryon, but they were nearly destroyed during the Dance, and no one in the current House Velaryon has that much Targaryen Blood like the Baratheons. 

Do you know a House that can beat the Baratheons in that?

Edited by Dragonsbone

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

House Baratheon has Targaryen blood through Orys Baratheon, the bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror, Princess Rhaelle Targaryen (daughter of Aegon V and grandmother to Robert, Stannis, and Renly). So Robbert has has at least 25% Targaryen Blood, since his grandmother was a Targaryen. 

On the show they removed one generation of Targaryens, to simplify relationship between maester Aemon and Daenerys. In the show he was her great uncle, second son of King Maeker, and older brother of her grandfather King Aegon V, The Egg, like this:

1. Maekar + Dyanna Dayne =  Aerion, Aemon, Aegon V

2. Aegon V + wife (unknown in the show) = Duncan (died in the fire at Harenhall), Aerys II, Rhaella, Daeron (died in the battle)

3. Aerys II + Rhaella = Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys                          

While in the book he was her great great uncle, one generation further:

1. Maekar + Dyanna Dayne =  Aerion, maester Aemon, the Egg Aegon V

2. Aegon V + Betha Blackwood (in the book version) = Duncan (died in the fire at Harenhall, in the book was also married with a peasant girl Jenny of Oldstones), Jaehaerys II, Shaera, Daeron (died in the battle), princess Rhaelle (the one that in the books married with Ormund Baratheon, and was Robert's grandmother)

3. Jaehaerys II + Shaera = Aerys II, Rhaella.

4. Aerys II + Rhaella = Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys

In the book version Ormund Baratheon married with a Targaryen Princess, while in the show it was his father Lyonel. Thus show-Ormund wasn't husband of Targaryen Princess, instead he was child of that Princess, he was 50% Targaryen. His son Steffon was 25% Targaryen. Thus on the show 3BB had only 12,5% of Targaryen blood.

In GOT generations went like this:

1. Rhaegar, Robert, Cersei and Jaime.

2. Aerys II, Steffon, Tywin.

3. Aegon V, Ormund, Tytos Lannister.

4. Maekar Targaryen, Lyonel Baratheon, Gerold Lannister (known only in books).

Lyonel married with a Targaryen, which is seen in his entry in the Book of Lineage, that Ned was reading, when he realised that Robert's children are actually Lannisters.

Based on generations and time frames from the show, that Princess could be only Aelinor Targyen.

In the show she was daughter of King Daeron II and Queen Myriah nee Martell.

She had four brothers:

1. Crown Prince Baelor. Who was accidentally killed by his brother Maekar, during Trial by Seven of Duncan the Tall.

2. Aerys I, with whom Aelinor married, and who was King (13th) for a short period of time.

3. Rhaegel, who never became King, and nothing is known about him. Which probably means that he died young, or that he was skipped because he had succumbed to the "Targaryen madness".

4. Maeker, who became 14th King from Targaryen dynasty. He married with Dyanna from House Dayne.

Seems that after Aerys I died, and his brother Maeker became King, he was already married. And because Aerys and Aelinor had no children, he married her to Lyonel Baratheon.

The thing is, during Trial of Duncan the Tall, Crown Prince Baelor, Duncan and Lyonel fought on the same side. While Maeker and his oldest son Aerion (who caused this fight, was crazy and later died by drinking wildfire) fought on opposing side. Maeker blamed himself for his brother's death.

"The events surrounding the trial also convinced Maekar that Aerion was a psychopath unworthy to be his heir, and that he should focus on the upbringing of his younger son Aegon, then only a small boy better known by his nickname, "Egg". Through a series of events at the tournament and trial Ser Duncan had befriended Egg, and Maekar agreed to let Egg serve as Ser Duncan's squire as he traveled through Westeros, to give the young prince a better understanding of the world. In later years, and several other deaths in the royal family, Egg succeeded his father as King Aegon V Targaryen, and "Dunk" became the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard."

Probably same as Aegon became friends with Duncan, Lyonel who was about the same age as Duncan, also became their friend and companion. Either way Lyonel was close to Targaryen family thru Maeker, or thru his son Aegon. So later one of them married to him Aelinor, who was childless widow after death of her first husband King Aerys I.

And her son Ormund didn't appeared later in Targaryen's family tree, because he was considered to be Baratheon, as his father Lyonel.

In the books there was no Aelinor Targaryen, daughter and fifth child of King Daeron II. Instead his son Aerys I was married with Aelinor nee Penrose, who was his cousin. So based on this change of her origin in the show version, show-Aelinor was a Targaryen Princess that married with Lyonel Baratheon.

On 07.10.2017 at 0:40 PM, falcotron said:

If you're willing to make a wild supposition that contradicts the books, but doesn't contradict anything we're told about the show, Rhaelle could exist, and be Aerys's and Rhaella's aunt, and be Steffon's mother. The evidence for this is that Aegon V appears to have married a Targaryen rather than a Blackwood in Dany's family tree. if there's one extra sister who wasn't in the books, there could be tw, and the second one could be Rhaelle. Pretty flimsy, but otherwise, all we have is "some Targaryen blood" and nothing more to go on.

In the show nothing is known about wife of Aegon V, even whether she was a Targaryen or not.

It is written on Danys' tree Unknown Targaryen Queen Deceased, but in the show version there was no female Targaryens in Aegon's generation, and the only known Targaryen Princess one generation higher was Aelinor, wife of Aerys I. In the show King Maeker had only sons - Aerion, maester Aemon, Aegon V. His brother Baelor also had only sons - Valarr and Matarys (both died during Great Spring Sickness, together with their grandfather King Daeron II). Aerys I and his sister-wife Aelinor had no children. Nothing is known about their brother Rhaegel, so it's unlikley that he ever married, or had a daughter. So most likely in the show Aegon V's wife wasn't Targaryen at all. It was mentioned there that his grandfather Aegon IV had many bastard children, and he legitimised them all shortly prior his death. So maybe wife of Aegon V was daughter of one of those ex-bastards, thus she was Aegon's cousin. Aegon could have married with one of those half-bloods, and one of those girls also could have married with Lyonel Baratheon. If that's so, then Lyonel's bride herself was only 25% Targaryen, then Robert had only 3,125% of Targaryen blood, with his great grandmother being quarter-Targaryen.

Looks more likely that Aelinor remarried with Lyonel, after her first husband died. In this case Robert would be 12,5% Targaryen, rather then 3,125%.

I favor this version because something similar already happened on the show a few times: Renly Baratheon died prior fathering any children, and his wife Margaery remarried with Joffrey, and then with Tommen; after Robert's death Cersei was supposed to remarry with Loras Tyrell; Sansa remarried with Ramsay, after her marriage with Tyrion was deemed null. According to book version Aelinor and Aerys I never consummated their marriage. So there's no reason not my marry her off to someone else. And Lord of Stormlands could be a good candidate.

Either Aelinor married with Lyonel, and Aegon V married with his cousin (that was partially Targaryen). Or there were more Targaryen females not mention anywhere on the show. Though time frame of GOT, and all known event suggest that Lyonel married with a Tartagyen from the same generation as Aelinor and her brother King Maekar.

Edited by Megorova

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He knew, as everyone knows. So that's why Ned tells him "You have a better claim". 

He considered himself a Baratheon, nothing strange about him being so indifferent on the matter. Like people in modern times having a grandmother of a nationality other than that one they consider themselves part of, but they ignore it totally.  

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Robert looked like a Baratheon but yep, once Aery's and his offspring were removed from the Throne and any claim due to the Rebellion, going back the Targaryen family tree to see who had the next best claim to the Iron Throne and it was Robert.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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