Iron Mother

Exonerating Littlefinger Once And For All (S05E03 TRANSCRIPT)

104 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

All the more reason Sansa is a total liar and Despot - executing him for personal reasons while using other reasons publicly.

LF deserved to die for a whole host of reasons. 

What Sansa did was smart and LF would approve if it wasn’t him getting his throat slit

Edited by jcmontea

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PAY ATTENTION to all those making excuses for Sansa.  They shift the blame from anything Sansa did to "LF deserved to die for his crimes".

People who do this have no willingness to see the two ideas are NOT the same thing.

LF deserving to die/answer for his crimes is one thing.  Sansa murdering someone in revenge based in things that man did not do is another thing.  Please DIVIDE them and stop muddying the issue.

For all defending Sansa: in your next post, say WHY you think she is angry with LF.  Say it loud and clear.  We all know why.  You need to say it clearly so YOU know.  Before the battle of the bastards, Sansa goes to see LF with Brienne and proceeds to bash him with every moment she spent under the dominion of Ramsey, saying he was an idiot for not knowing what Ramsey was and that he "sold" her to Ramsey, and asks if she should have Brienne kill him right there and then.

She did not approach to scold him about killing Lysa, betraying Catelyn, betraying Ned, having Joffrey killed. 

Ramsey Only.

Yet, Sansa has him murdered for all those things and Ramsey is barely mentioned.  Once you decide what is Sansa's motivation for hating LF, and recognize LF was not at fault for it, you can see Sansa for the hypocrite she is and liar.  Unless.... that is not the conclusion you WANT to reach.  That would be called Willful Ignorance.

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

LF deserved to die for a whole host of reasons. 

What Sansa did was smart and LF would approve if it wasn’t him getting his throat slit

If LF would approve, and you say he deserved to die, then why doesn't Sansa deserve to die?

Doth thine own mouth condemn thee?

*shame*

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The sins of Sansa include:

- Murder
- Killing
- Despotism
- Treason
- High Treachery
- Abortion
- Using underlings to carry out her bent will
- Forsaking the code of Ned and Catelyn Stark
- Disavowing the sacred oath of Guest Rite
- Offering no trial to an accused
- ?

But where is her Justice?  She is apparently a heroine to viewers.  How is she even different from Cersei?  Cersei at least is aware and acknowledges she is evil.  Sansa sits at the high table with clean hands and feels she is deserving of every good thing.  Most viewers hate Cersei (even if loving to hate her) but the issue of Sansa remains a dark cloud of confusion.

Sansa is one Evil Bird.  And she drags womankind into the dirt by association.  Exerting no power of her own, crying and relying on MEN and begging MEN for help, and above all this, blaming those men for the outcome when it does not go in her favor.

I will assert Cersei has "created" a phallic instrument in The Mountain to carry out her will and for protection.  Sansa has now a phallic instrument of her own in Brienne.  These two "women" are more alike than similar.  Except, I have much more respect for Cersei in her honesty of it.

Please feel free to add to the list 

Edited by Iron Mother

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50 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

If LF would approve, and you say he deserved to die, then why doesn't Sansa deserve to die?

 

All people in Winterfell great hall wanted LF dead, Sansa organized the execution. I think the only one who wants Sansa dead in Westeros is Cersei, maybe not even anymore as she knows Sansa was not involved in Joffrey's death. 

Robb beheaded Karstark, Jon beheaded Slynt, hanged Thorne, Olly, Daenerys burned Randyll and Dickon Tarly, Grey Worm killed 2 wise masters, all these deathes only because they deserved it. Do you think the executioners deserve to die for that too ?

Edited by valgrel

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28 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

 

She did not approach to scold him about killing Lysa, betraying Catelyn, betraying Ned, having Joffrey killed. 

 

At that moment she only knows for Lysa as she was there. The betrayal of their parents were added by Bran visions, and this happened between episodes 6 and 7.

Joffrey's killing is never mentionned by Sansa.

Edited by valgrel

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Ok, did this turn into a "bash Sansa" thread?

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49 minutes ago, valgrel said:

At that moment she only knows for Lysa as she was there. The betrayal of their parents were added by Bran visions, and this happened between episodes 6 and 7.

Joffrey's killing is never mentionned by Sansa.

Kind of like the warning at the roller coaster ride where you have to be "this" tall to ride.  

You do not seem to meet criteria to properly engage in this conversation and may be injured.

Can someone please escort user @valgrel to the lobby?

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42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Ok, did this turn into a "bash Sansa" thread?

Will you, too, rush to Sansa's aid?  Just remember she may have you murdered if the dice do not land in her favor.

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1 hour ago, valgrel said:

the executioners deserve to die for that too ?

Please hold user @valgrel's hand as she helps you to the lobby.

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Littlefinger lost me the moment he gave Sansa over to the Boltons. In the books, it makes sense he give them (f)Arya because poor Jeyne is worthless to him - he'd tossed her in his betrothal until he found a use for her - but Sansa is still the "key to the North"... yet his plan was for Sansa to marry the son of the man who betrayed her family and "get control over him"? Why give up such a valuable political chess piece to the Boltons?

Whether Sansa was complicit in the plan or not, he miscalculated the situation terribly, in a way his book counterpart never would have.

Besides, Sansa is still quite young and new to the GoT - setting her the task of controlling Ramsey when they had no idea what he was like was very foolish.

I do agree LF's death was stupid, but that's a failure of writing. Had the Stark kids actually sprung a trap on him, it would have been more satisfying but no... Arya and Sansa were just idiots and needed their warped little brother to come in and save them.

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Wow Iron Mother, you seem to be defending LF as if he hadn't done all the manipulative and cruel things he was accused of doing to the Starks and others.  The Ramsay marriage departed from the books and created a dissonance in the writing - c'mon even the servants knew of Ramsay's cruelty, it wasnt a secret, and LF didnt bother to ask a few question? - that led to this rather weak closure for him.  Still,  defending Littlefinger to bash Sansa is such a distorted point of view.  No need to escort me to the lobby.  It's obvious we're watching a different show.

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On ‎08‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:20 PM, Iron Mother said:

For everyone still blaming Littlefinger for the fakefalse Sansa bitterness over all things Ramsey Bolton:

Below is the only interaction LF and Ramsey ever had.  And since this plot was not in the book, we can only go by the horrific writing of the show to create lame drama.  Sansa ends up proclaiming LF was an "idiot" for him not knowing about Ramsey's proclivities for beating people and ends up having him murdered on the floor of Winterfell great hall in revenge.  Yet, she chose to marry Ramsey and was never forced or coerced.

Sansa is just another example of men writing female characters who make the rest of womankind look like weak idiot fools - fools who end up blaming men they gave power to and then lash out at those men when things do not go their way.

This is a cry for strong women who take responsibility for their own actions and bite down HARD when things get tough instead of weeping in Godswoods of their own making.

****************************************************************************

Ramsey: She really is lovely.  I hope I can make her happy.

LF: I hope so too.  Ive become quite fond of Lady Sansa during our travels together.  She's suffered enough.  

Ramsey: I'll never hurt her.  You have my word.

LF: I've heard very little about you.  Which makes you quite a rare thing as far as Lords go.

Ramsey: I haven't been a Lord very long.  I was a bastard....

Roose Bolton: ...and you're not anymore.  Alow me a word with Lord Baelish.

Ramsey: Yes, father... and thank you Lord Baelish.  I am forever in your debt.

LF: He seems pleased.

Roose Bolton: Shouldn't he be?

 

You are being manipulated by Littlefinger. Even dead. Damn, he's good!

Why though, does writing a certain character a certain way make "the rest of womankind look like weak idiot fools". Does the fact Cersei is written as she is mean that makes the rest of womankind look batshit crazy? Or the fact that Missandei is written another way mean that the rest of womankind look intelligent and thoughtful? Why pick on Sansa? Why would the showrunners even be thinking that when they wouldn't be seeing this from the point of view that Sansa is weak at this point?

1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

All the more reason Sansa is a total liar and Despot - executing him for personal reasons while using other reasons publicly.

It doesn't have to be one thing. Of course it was primarily revenge for the death of their father. Who cares if she even had the right to do it. She was right to do it. It was justice as well as revenge.

There are no court-appointed lawyers in the North. That execution scene mirrored nicely the 'power is power' scene in Season One. The sisters hold the power here and in this case had the moral high-ground to follow through and did. Because they could. "There is no justice in the world. Not unless we make it". How much more agency do you want? It's great.

And even if Sansa is weak or naïve or just plain wrong. Since when did these character traits not deserve a place in GoT? Noone's perfect, that's what makes the characters interesting and fun.

 

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52 minutes ago, Faera said:

Littlefinger lost me the moment he gave Sansa over to the Boltons. In the books, it makes sense he give them (f)Arya because poor Jeyne is worthless to him - he'd tossed her in his betrothal until he found a use for her - but Sansa is still the "key to the North"... yet his plan was for Sansa to marry the son of the man who betrayed her family and "get control over him"? Why give up such a valuable political chess piece to the Boltons?

Whether Sansa was complicit in the plan or not, he miscalculated the situation terribly, in a way his book counterpart never would have.

Besides, Sansa is still quite young and new to the GoT - setting her the task of controlling Ramsey when they had no idea what he was like was very foolish.

I do agree LF's death was stupid, but that's a failure of writing. Had the Stark kids actually sprung a trap on him, it would have been more satisfying but no... Arya and Sansa were just idiots and needed their warped little brother to come in and save them.

I thought it was weird that Littlefinger would give Sansa to the Boltons, considering how much Littlefinger wants to get in Sansa's skirts. Also weird was not knowing how vile Ramsay was, considering his network of spies and the resources he has.

In my eyes, he won't be exonerated for causing the War of Five Kings out of spite towards the Starks. If I were Littlefinger, I wouldn't cause a continent-wide civil war, I'd have someone kill the people who caused me the most trouble: Hoster Tully for arranging the marriage of Catelyn to Brandon Stark and Ned for marrying her. 

And also, I don't think he cared about Catelyn. Just look at how easily he transfers his affections from Catelyn to Sansa.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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33 minutes ago, Faera said:

...

I do agree LF's death was stupid, but that's a failure of writing. Had the Stark kids actually sprung a trap on him, it would have been more satisfying but no... Arya and Sansa were just idiots and needed their warped little brother to come in and save them.

That was not actually what was shown though. The way it was ultimately shown in the final edit strongly suggested that the at least some of the sister's actions were staged. There is nothing to suggest that Arya and Sansa at any point really considered killing each other given how it played out.

They did spring a trap on him. They got Littlefinger alone in a locked room off guard and unguarded, got to confront him with his crimes and yet executed him as publicly as possible. They got justice and vengeance for their father. Everyone in that room knows it was justified. Bran helped, sure, but he didn't save them, and why wouldn't he help, he's their brother? All three of them did it together. The pack killing the sheep. How are they idiots?

It's odd, I think the Littlefinger execution is on of the most dividing on the show so far. It's up there in the top 10 of the whole show for me.

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2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

If LF would approve, and you say he deserved to die, then why doesn't Sansa deserve to die?

Doth thine own mouth condemn thee?

*shame*

No not really. LF would approve of her taking out a threat the way she did and out smarting someone the way she did.

the difference between LF and sansa is that killing Lf was not a purely cynical move. He was not someone who had not commited heinous crimes and was being executed for purely political reasons. He was actually guilty of every charge levelled against him. 

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1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

No not really. LF would approve of her taking out a threat the way she did and out smarting someone the way she did.

the difference between LF and sansa is that killing Lf was not a purely cynical move. He was not someone who had not commited heinous crimes and was being executed for purely political reasons. He was actually guilty of every charge levelled against him. 

He kinda dug his own grave by admitting to Lysa's murder and trying to flee.

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1 minute ago, Daske said:

That was not actually what was shown though. The way it was ultimately shown in the final edit strongly suggested that the at least some of the sister's actions were staged. There is nothing to suggest that Arya and Sansa at any point really considered killing each other given how it played out.

They did spring a trap on him. They got Littlefinger alone in a locked room off guard and unguarded, got to confront him with his crimes and yet executed him as publicly as possible. They got justice and vengeance for their father. Everyone in that room knows it was justified. Bran helped, sure, but he didn't save them, and why wouldn't he help, he's their brother? All three of them did it together. The pack killing the sheep. How are they idiots?

It's odd, I think the Littlefinger execution is on of the most dividing on the show so far. It's up there in the top 10 of the whole show for me.

Yea. I think the main reasons are 

1.) lots of LF fans can’t stand him going out like the pathetic man he was 

2.) the lead up to the execution was mixed since people really didn’t like two people they liked fighting and having conflict. 

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

He kinda dug his own grave by admitting to Lysa's murder and trying to flee.

Yea. Although in fairness he was not getting out of that room no matter what he said. 

Killing Lysa

ordering the assasination on bran

killing jon aryn 

betraying ned

He was a goner no mater what. That was not a trial. It was an execution. 

Edited by jcmontea

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1 hour ago, Iron Mother said:

Will you, too, rush to Sansa's aid?  Just remember she may have you murdered if the dice do not land in her favor.

Pointing out that LF was actually guilty of the crimes he was charged with does not automatically mean that anyone is "rushing to Sansas aid".

 

Quote

He was a goner no mater what. That was not a trial. It was an execution. 



Agreed. The point of this scene was to expose the crimes LF had commited to the world (or rather, the northern- and vale lords who where present) and execute him for said crimes without anyone objecting to it.
Not to learn if he was guilty or not in the first place.

Edited by MinscS2

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