manchester_babe

Jonsa

139 posts in this topic

On 10/20/2017 at 5:51 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think people confuse the intended irony of Sandor being her true KNIGHT, with him becoming her love interest or marriage partner. Those two roles need not coincide.

As for Jon and Sansa. I don't know. But the fact is, she is less closely related to him than Daenerys is, so purely from the motive of choosing the least revolting incestuous setup, she would be the better choice of the two.

I also think that Sansa will end up making Sandor an anointed knight. 

 

At the end of their story, the trauma associated with the concept of knighthood will be removed. It's a healing journey that ends with erasing the negativity that both Sandor/Sansa's traumas led them to associate with knights (broken dreams, pain, preying on the weak, bitterness.) The Hound as Sansa's personal knight symbolizes a new meaning in association with knights. Rather than a source of bitterness, it becomes a source of pride, hope, trust, and safety.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Quote

Melisandre took that as a sign and dismissed her own guard as well. They crossed the yard together, just the two of them. The snow fell all around them. She walked as close to Jon Snow as she dared, close enough to feel the mistrust pouring off him like a black fog. He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

 

Tully words, Family duty honor.

Does Sansa worship family?

 

She is dutiful at least

Quote
"As you wish." He had become accustomed to his wife's nightly devotions. She prayed at the royal sept as well, and often lit candles to Mother, Maid, and Crone. Tyrion found all this piety excessive, if truth be told, but in her place he might want the help of the gods as well. "I confess, I know little of the old gods," he said, trying to be pleasant. "Perhaps someday you might enlighten me. I could even accompany you."
"No," Sansa said at once. "You . . . you are kind to offer, but . . . there are no devotions, my lord. No priests or songs or candles. Only trees, and silent prayer. You would be bored."
"No doubt you're right." She knows me better than I thought. "Though the sound of rustling leaves might be a pleasant change from some septon droning on about the seven aspects of grace." Tyrion waved her off. "I won't intrude. Dress warmly, my lady, the wind is brisk out there." He was tempted to ask what she prayed for, but Sansa was so dutiful she might actually tell him, and he didn't think he wanted to know.
 
 
He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tully words, Family duty honor.

The Tully words are pretty universal. You'd be hard pressed to find many characters who in some way or another don't value either family, duty or honor. Or claim too at the very least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On October 17, 2017 at 4:49 PM, manchester_babe said:

so … do u think jonsa will happen? 

No. Not a chance. The northern people do not do incest and since Jon is a Targaryen and so is Daenerys who is already a queen, it is obvious that they are destined for each other and she can legitimize Jon while she is with him. There are just zero real clues to a Jon and Sansa match, and they do not even really like each other. It is Jon plus daenerys. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

No. Not a chance. The northern people do not do incest and since Jon is a Targaryen and so is Daenerys who is already a queen, it is obvious that they are destined for each other and she can legitimize Jon while she is with him. There are just zero real clues to a Jon and Sansa match, and they do not even really like each other. It is Jon plus daenerys. 

They do cousin marriage. Ned's own parents are first cousins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

They do cousin marriage. Ned's own parents are first cousins.

No they are not. I had this conversation with someone else that was shipping Jon and Arya. Ned's parents are cousins once removed. Apparently that is far enough of a genetic spread to make a difference up north. All of the instances of incest anywhere all lead to crazy situations or people and that is why it is ok for the Targaryens to do it because it does not mess with them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

No they are not. I had this conversation with someone else that was shipping Jon and Arya. Ned's parents are cousins once removed. Apparently that is far enough of a genetic spread to make a difference up north. All of the instances of incest anywhere all lead to crazy situations or people and that is why it is ok for the Targaryens to do it because it does not mess with them. 

Well, Rickard's grandfather and Lyarra's father are brothers, so they're first cousins once removed. But still, they're cousins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, Rickard's grandfather and Lyarra's father are brothers, so they're first cousins once removed. But still, they're cousins.

And once removed means a lot. Don't ignore that. There is a reason why only the Targaryens were allowed this incest, even with cousins as the maesters say. It is to point to the obvious and awesome pairing of Jon and Daenerys. Ice and fire. 

Edited by Sea Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sea Dragon said:

And once removed means a lot. Don't ignore that. There is a reason why only the Targaryens were allowed this incest, even with cousins as the maestros say. It is to point to the obvious and awesome pairing of Jon and Daenerys. Ice and fire. 

And yet Tywin and Joanna Lannister, who are also first cousins, married.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Angel Eyes said:

And yet Tywin and Joanna Lannister, who are also first cousins, married.

Because Tywin kills people who try and question him. That is his version of gaining respect. And Joanna was horrified when she found out that Jaime and Cersei were "playing" with each other. Tywin was hungry for power, that is it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And yet Tywin and Joanna Lannister, who are also first cousins, married.

There was a lot of this discussion going on in the sons of the dragon thread and Ran even said it was reserved for Targaryens. Tywin just kills you if you question him. 

I found the book quote

Quote
  The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.  
 

 

Edited by Sea Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

It is to point to the obvious and awesome pairing of Jon and Daenerys. Ice and fire.

Technically, they’d be 1 Fire + (½ Fire + ½ Ice) and to reduce it down more, 1-½ Fire + ½ Ice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Technically, they’d be 1 Fire + (½ Fire + ½ Ice) and to reduce it down more, 1-½ Fire + ½ Ice.

 

Does the blood amount matter? Jon is the ice ideal in this story and Dany is the fire ideal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Does the blood amount matter? Jon is the ice ideal in this story and Dany is the fire ideal. 

Jonerys might happen, but the Ice/Fire thing, nah.

We can only speculate about the Starks historical connection to Ice. If Jon's connection to ice is the Wall, then the ice in ice and fire might be anyone at the Wall (oh Dolorous Edd...). Bran would be a stronger candidate given his situation if you'd have to pick from Starks at present. And don't get me started on Song of Ice and Fire being just assumed to be romantic as opposed to any other relationship, including the one which has been set up since the first chapter: that of the Others and Dany's Dragons.

But real and confirmed Ice with a capital I are the Others if you want to go that route. I read somewhere that GRRM said Dany is Fire and the Others are Ice but I can't find the quote so take it as you will.

Can't overlook Dany's openminded and Sansa's had a bad row with men lately, so by the that line of thinking, Sansa could be Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North and you'd get SANAERYS :o as Ice and Fire. They could bond over lemons.

 

Edited by Lollygag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

But real and confirmed Ice with a capital I are the Others if you want to go that route. I read somewhere that GRRM said Dany is Fire and the Others are Ice but I can't find the quote so take it as you will.

Martin: I think the contrasts of ice and fire, of love and hate, all the things that they symbolize is one of the themes of what the series is about. I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. 

Interviewer: As the novels unfold, Jon becomes increasingly identified with the northern cold and ice, just as Dany is closely tied to the southern heat and fire. Will these two ultimately embody the central image of the series, Ice and Fire?

Martin: That’s certainly one way to interpret it. That’s for my readers to argue out. That may be one possible meaning. There may be a secondary meaning, or a tertiary meaning as well.

- 2003

And to the quote you're referring to:

Martin: “Well of course the two outlying ones, the things that are going north of the Wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the Ice and Fire of the title, the Song of Ice and Fire.”

 - 2016

Edited by TRILOGY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

No they are not. I had this conversation with someone else that was shipping Jon and Arya. Ned's parents are cousins once removed. Apparently that is far enough of a genetic spread to make a difference up north. All of the instances of incest anywhere all lead to crazy situations or people and that is why it is ok for the Targaryens to do it because it does not mess with them. 

Historically cousin marriage was never seen as incest, many nobles and royals married their cousins in order to keep power in the family. Even today a lot of cultures practise cousin marriage because unlike siblings it's not seen as taboo or incestuous. I know the Catholic Church was iffy about cousin marriage but the Seven don't seem to have the same problem, no one thought Jaime and Cersei were the products of incest also Lysa was planning on marrying Sansa to Robert.

Jonsa is messed up not because they're first cousins but because they were raised as siblings, I cannot think of a fathomable reason for why they would choose to marry.

Also Arya/Jon is 1000000x more messed up than Jon/Sansa, what is wrong with people??? 

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jonerys might happen

Doubt it, if Dany's going to marry a Targ it's most likely Aegon 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Because Tywin kills people who try and question him. That is his version of gaining respect. And Joanna was horrified when she found out that Jaime and Cersei were "playing" with each other. Tywin was hungry for power, that is it. 

He married for love. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2017 at 4:10 AM, Pikachu101 said:

Also Arya/Jon is 1000000x more messed up than Jon/Sansa, what is wrong with people??? 

There are many reasons why some people would rather support Arya/Jon instead of Sansa/Jon. There's more support for in the books. It was introduced as a possibility in the outline. Most if not all of the incest couples in the series look like each other. Jon and Arya love each other and think of each other a lot. No doubt incest is a big taboo and the only thing that would overcome that taboo is the irrationality of romantic love. Thus if Jon does choose to marry one of his sisters, Arya/Jon is 1000000x likelier than Sansa/Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

There are many reasons why some people would rather support Arya/Jon instead of Sansa/Jon. There's more support for in the books. It was introduced as a possibility in the outline. Most if not all of the incest couples in the series look like each other. Jon and Arya love each other and think of each other a lot. No doubt incest is a big taboo and the only thing that would overcome that taboo is the irrationality of romantic love. Thus if Jon does choose to marry one of his sisters, Arya/Jon is 1000000x likelier than Sansa/Jon.

Which couples would those be? Only incestous couples i can think we know of are Targaryens and Jaime and Cersei.

Tywin&Joanna doesn't count nor Rickard&Lyarra as Westerosi don't see cousin marriages as incest.

Do we have any incest couple that don't look like each other but are parent-child or siblings?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2017 at 11:31 PM, TRILOGY said:

Martin: I think the contrasts of ice and fire, of love and hate, all the things that they symbolize is one of the themes of what the series is about. I like titles that work on several different levels where the title seems to have an obvious meaning but, if you think about it, also a secondary meaning, perhaps even a tertiary. 

Interviewer: As the novels unfold, Jon becomes increasingly identified with the northern cold and ice, just as Dany is closely tied to the southern heat and fire. Will these two ultimately embody the central image of the series, Ice and Fire?

Martin: That’s certainly one way to interpret it. That’s for my readers to argue out. That may be one possible meaning. There may be a secondary meaning, or a tertiary meaning as well.

- 2003

And to the quote you're referring to:

Martin: “Well of course the two outlying ones, the things that are going north of the Wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the Ice and Fire of the title, the Song of Ice and Fire.”

 - 2016

The fun part is that both Dany and Jon are half ice and half fire... both the children of Lyanna and Rheagar.

Sansa already has a husband, and Tyrion makes a great match. I'd be surprised if they don't end up back together and likely on the Iron Throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now