Did Cersei hasten Robert's death once she learned that Arya and Sansa were leaving King's Landing?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Time to ask this question again...

By going to Queen Cersei with Lord Eddard's plans on the morning of Cersei's purge, did young Sansa indirectly accelerate King Robert's dying?

First, let me just say that I am not a hater. I dont believe that The George is setting Sansa up to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic. I found Arya's and Sansa's plight to be the most riveting aspects of the first act of ASOIAF the first time I read the novels. Even though Sansa's actions that morning had negative consequences for House Stark, I dont think we should be throwing an eleven-year-old under the ox cart. With that said, I'm wondering if one of the consequences was that the Queen had the King's life terminated a bit prematurely . . .

There is no doubt that King Robert was a good as dead when he returned from his hunt . . .

So Robert had returned from his hunt. . . .

The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. . . .

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. . . .

Heavy chains jangled softly as Grand Maester Pycelle came up to Ned. "I will do all in my power, my lord, but the wound has mortified. It took them two days to get him back. By the time I saw him, it was too late. I can lessen His Grace's suffering, but only the gods can heal him now."

"How long?" Ned asked.

"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."

"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. . . .

Eddard XIII, Game 47

So, it would be foolish to suggest that Sansa's actions caused the King to die. That die was already cast. But we have this the scene the following morning . . .

The grey light of dawn was streaming through his window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock warriors stuffed with straw. Ned watched Sandor Clegane gallop across the hard-packed ground to drive an iron-tipped lance through a dummy's head. Canvas ripped and straw exploded as Lannister guardsmen joked and cursed.

Is this brave show for my benefit? he wondered. If so, Cersei was a greater fool than he'd imagined. Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Here the author suggests that Cersei was demonstrating her strength. But, presumably, the King was still alive, and Sansa was having breakfast with her father and her sister . . .

The morning was overcast and grim. Ned broke his fast with his daughters and Septa Mordane. Sansa, still disconsolate, stared sullenly at her food and refused to eat, but Arya wolfed down everything that was set in front of her. "Syrio says we have time for one last lesson before we take ship this evening," she said. "Can I, Father? All my things are packed."

"A short lesson, and make certain you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood?"

"By midday," Arya said.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

So Sansa knew that she and Arya were expected to be ready to depart the Red Keep by noon that day, and that the Wind Witch would sail later that evening. She was not happy about having to leave Joffrey . . .

Sansa looked up from her food. "If she can have a dancing lesson, why won't you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?"

"I would gladly go with her, Lord Eddard," Septa Mordane offered. "There would be no question of her missing the ship."

"It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I'm sorry."

Sansa's eyes filled with tears. "But why?"

"Sansa, your lord father knows best," Septa Mordane said. "You are not to question his decisions."

"It's not fair!" Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran weeping from the solar.

Septa Mordane rose, but Ned gestured her back to her seat. "Let her go, Septa. I will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell." The septa bowed her head and sat down to finish her breakfast.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Its too bad for House Stark that Eddard did not allow Mordane to follow the young, despairing Sansa, because, just one hour later . . .

It was an hour later when Grand Maester Pycelle came to Eddard Stark in his solar. His shoulders slumped, as if the weight of the great maester's chain around his neck had become too great to bear. "My lord," he said, "King Robert is gone. The gods give him rest."

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Notice that the author tells us that Robert passes immediately after the scene where Sansa runs off. The information is presented by Cersei's creature Pycelle, one hour after Sansa goes to the Queen and tells her of Eddard's plans . . .

"Please, I need to speak to the queen again," Sansa told them, as she told everyone she saw that day.

Sansa IV, Game 51

That word again was the first signal to the reader that Sansa had done what she did . . .

"Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, now we know that Sansa, defied her father, went to the Queen, rather than to the King, whom she hoped would command Eddard to allow her to remain in King's Landing with her beloved Prince Joffrey. Cersei had Arys take her into custody, and within the hour, Pycelle advised Eddard that the King was dead. We also knew that Cersei benefitted from the information she gained from Sansa that morning . . .

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . "

Tyrion I, Clash 3

We can surmise that Petyr promised the gold cloaks to Cersei sometime after Eddard told Cersei that he would advise the King of her treason upon his return from the hunt. We can also surmise that Cersei suspected Eddard of plotting with Renly since Boros and Preston observed them talking on the drawbridge right after Robert returned from the hunt. But she could not have known about Eddard's letter to Stannis until after Fat Tom was killed during the purge. And we know this as well . . .

. . . No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc. . . but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc. . . all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

SSM, April 10, 1999, Regarding Sansa

Once Sansa told Cersei that Eddard's daughters were to leave King's Landing in a few hours, Cersei could no longer wait for the King to die. With her Lannister soldiers and Petyr's gold cloaks she had the muscle she needed to move against the Hand. But she could not make such a move before Robert died. On the other hand, she could not risk losing Sansa and Arya as potential hostages. Sansa proved to be the leverage she needed to force Eddard to bend the knee, and knowing that Sansa could be executed likely kept Robb from executing Jaime.

Shortly after Pycelle advised Eddard of the King's death, Cersei summoned the Hand and the small council to the throne room, and Eddard noticed that the Lannister men were not practicing in the yard anymore. Whether Robert’s death was hastened as a result of Sansa's action that morning is not provable, based on what we know. Nor can I find any hints that this is the case. But it is possible . . . What do you think?

[Wolf's Bane]

The lioness protecting her cubs.  It's not one misstep but at least two.  Ned's ill-timed warning to Cersei.  Sansa's bad decision to blurt out her father's escape plans to the worst person she could.  They spurred Cersei into action. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Time to ask this question again...

By going to Queen Cersei with Lord Eddard's plans on the morning of Cersei's purge, did young Sansa indirectly accelerate King Robert's dying?

First, let me just say that I am not a hater. I dont believe that The George is setting Sansa up to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic. I found Arya's and Sansa's plight to be the most riveting aspects of the first act of ASOIAF the first time I read the novels. Even though Sansa's actions that morning had negative consequences for House Stark, I dont think we should be throwing an eleven-year-old under the ox cart. With that said, I'm wondering if one of the consequences was that the Queen had the King's life terminated a bit prematurely . . .

There is no doubt that King Robert was a good as dead when he returned from his hunt . . .

So Robert had returned from his hunt. . . .

The room smelled of smoke and blood and death. . . .

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from groin to with its tusks. The wine-soaked bandages that Grand Maester Pycelle had applied were already black with blood, and the smell off the wound was hideous. . . .

Heavy chains jangled softly as Grand Maester Pycelle came up to Ned. "I will do all in my power, my lord, but the wound has mortified. It took them two days to get him back. By the time I saw him, it was too late. I can lessen His Grace's suffering, but only the gods can heal him now."

"How long?" Ned asked.

"By rights, he should be dead already. I have never seen a man cling to life so fiercely."

"My brother was always strong," Lord Renly said. "Not wise, perhaps, but strong." In the sweltering heat of the bedchamber, his brow was slick with sweat. He might have been Robert's ghost as he stood there, young and dark and handsome. "He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar." His voice was full of wonder. . . .

Eddard XIII, Game 47

So, it would be foolish to suggest that Sansa's actions caused the King to die. That die was already cast. But we have this the scene the following morning . . .

The grey light of dawn was streaming through his window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock warriors stuffed with straw. Ned watched Sandor Clegane gallop across the hard-packed ground to drive an iron-tipped lance through a dummy's head. Canvas ripped and straw exploded as Lannister guardsmen joked and cursed.

Is this brave show for my benefit? he wondered. If so, Cersei was a greater fool than he'd imagined. Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . .

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Here the author suggests that Cersei was demonstrating her strength. But, presumably, the King was still alive, and Sansa was having breakfast with her father and her sister . . .

The morning was overcast and grim. Ned broke his fast with his daughters and Septa Mordane. Sansa, still disconsolate, stared sullenly at her food and refused to eat, but Arya wolfed down everything that was set in front of her. "Syrio says we have time for one last lesson before we take ship this evening," she said. "Can I, Father? All my things are packed."

"A short lesson, and make certain you leave yourself time to bathe and change. I want you ready to leave by midday, is that understood?"

"By midday," Arya said.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

So Sansa knew that she and Arya were expected to be ready to depart the Red Keep by noon that day, and that the Wind Witch would sail later that evening. She was not happy about having to leave Joffrey . . .

Sansa looked up from her food. "If she can have a dancing lesson, why won't you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?"

"I would gladly go with her, Lord Eddard," Septa Mordane offered. "There would be no question of her missing the ship."

"It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I'm sorry."

Sansa's eyes filled with tears. "But why?"

"Sansa, your lord father knows best," Septa Mordane said. "You are not to question his decisions."

"It's not fair!" Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran weeping from the solar.

Septa Mordane rose, but Ned gestured her back to her seat. "Let her go, Septa. I will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell." The septa bowed her head and sat down to finish her breakfast.

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Its too bad for House Stark that Eddard did not allow Mordane to follow the young, despairing Sansa, because, just one hour later . . .

It was an hour later when Grand Maester Pycelle came to Eddard Stark in his solar. His shoulders slumped, as if the weight of the great maester's chain around his neck had become too great to bear. "My lord," he said, "King Robert is gone. The gods give him rest."

Eddard XIV, Game 49

Notice that the author tells us that Robert passes immediately after the scene where Sansa runs off. The information is presented by Cersei's creature Pycelle, one hour after Sansa goes to the Queen and tells her of Eddard's plans . . .

"Please, I need to speak to the queen again," Sansa told them, as she told everyone she saw that day.

Sansa IV, Game 51

That word again was the first signal to the reader that Sansa had done what she did . . .

"Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

Sansa IV, Game 51

So, now we know that Sansa, defied her father, went to the Queen, rather than to the King, whom she hoped would command Eddard to allow her to remain in King's Landing with her beloved Prince Joffrey. Cersei had Arys take her into custody, and within the hour, Pycelle advised Eddard that the King was dead. We also knew that Cersei benefitted from the information she gained from Sansa that morning . . .

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . "

Tyrion I, Clash 3

We can surmise that Petyr promised the gold cloaks to Cersei sometime after Eddard told Cersei that he would advise the King of her treason upon his return from the hunt. We can also surmise that Cersei suspected Eddard of plotting with Renly since Boros and Preston observed them talking on the drawbridge right after Robert returned from the hunt. But she could not have known about Eddard's letter to Stannis until after Fat Tom was killed during the purge. And we know this as well . . .

. . . No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc. . . but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc. . . all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

SSM, April 10, 1999, Regarding Sansa

Once Sansa told Cersei that Eddard's daughters were to leave King's Landing in a few hours, Cersei could no longer wait for the King to die. With her Lannister soldiers and Petyr's gold cloaks she had the muscle she needed to move against the Hand. But she could not make such a move before Robert died. On the other hand, she could not risk losing Sansa and Arya as potential hostages. Sansa proved to be the leverage she needed to force Eddard to bend the knee, and knowing that Sansa could be executed likely kept Robb from executing Jaime.

Shortly after Pycelle advised Eddard of the King's death, Cersei summoned the Hand and the small council to the throne room, and Eddard noticed that the Lannister men were not practicing in the yard anymore. Whether Robert’s death was hastened as a result of Sansa's action that morning is not provable, based on what we know. Nor can I find any hints that this is the case. But it is possible . . . What do you think?

Yes it did , that and Margaery Tyrell coming to King's Landing .

[zandru]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I dont believe that The George is setting Sansa up to be player or a typical heroine, but I do believe her character is tragic and sympathetic.

Thanks for this! I have yet to see good evidence of Sansa's brilliance or political acumen, and certainly not much sign of agency, as her defenders often argue. "Tragic and sympathetic" are much better fits. (As a Sansa-disliker, I can go with that description.) (At this point, it's Arya that has the more heroic arc. Yes, I'm an Arya suck-up.)

I do like your arguments that Cersei via Pycelle hastened Robert's death. As strong as he was, he might have held on until Sansa and Arya were safely away on their ship, and had Sansa not blabbed, they really might have made it safely back to Winterfell - or at least Dragonstone - which would have changed everything. Too bad Ned didn't think to have a guard of his own placed on Robert. But poor Ned was trained and experienced as a Lord of the North, where the responsibilities were to his family and smallfolk, to keep them alive during the harsh winters, to collaborate and pull together. He knew nothing of the backstabbing, flattery, intrigue and outright lying of folks constantly vying for influence and power in the capitol. Ned was offended by Renly's grasp of the situation, not understanding that Renly actually knew.

I think we can all agree that Robert was doomed. The severity of the boar's damage was bad enough, but knowing Robert, he would have also had a belly full of wine, if not also food, leading to massive and immediate sepsis. Folks in Westeros seem to have super immune systems, but even that would have been too much. Still, had he been allowed to hang on (suffering), things could have been very different.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

@Lost Melnibonean extremely well put together and organized, you have me convinced it is at least possible.  I tend to think Robert died on his own, but Sansa's little chat with Cersei led to her acting quickly to secure the girls.  I'm thinking Littlefinger had already planned out the betrayal with Cersei, and if Robert had not died she would have had Eddard imprisoned that day anyway.

[Tai Pan]

Cersei put up with Robert for fifteen yours.  I don't think she had murder in mind until she was threatened with exposure.  The Starks violated one of the tenets of war strategies.  They put their cards on the table too soon and allowed the enemy the first strike.  Shame on Ned, shame on Sansa.

[Lord Lannister]

Eh, as much as Cersei wants to take credit for a masterstroke, I think Robert's death was not planned specifically. All Cersei seemed intent on doing was providing an environment in which Robert could get himself killed. Doing things like keeping him drunk, encouraging him to participate in melees and the such. By it's very nature, precision is impossible to achieve with such a passive approach. Had Robert passed out before they caught the boar, she'd have been in a world of trouble.

[Ygrain]

Highly likely, but we cannot rule out Pycelle's own agency, just like he did with Jon Arryn, and the timing would then be just coincidence.

- That said, I don't believe in coincidences very much, so Cersei arranging that Robert dies sooner rather than later seems more probable.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'd love it, but I kind of feel like we should have gotten it in her thoughts by now if she did.  If we never hear anything about it I would say she didn't, and if she did then we will find out.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Thomas Crown said:

The Starks violated one of the tenets of war strategies.  They put their cards on the table too soon and allowed the enemy the first strike.  Shame on Ned, shame on Sansa.

Well, maybe shame on Ned. I tried to make the case that the poor guy had almost no idea of palace intrigue or athe "game of thrones" being the "Trivial Pursuit" of King's Landing. He warned Cersei because he was a genuinely nice guy and wanted her to escape and not face Robert's wrath. (What followed was yet another confirmation that "nice guys finish last.")

Sansa spilled the beans to Cersei partly because Ned had not impressed upon her the life or death situation they were in - and because she was a stunningly bad judge of character. I guess being 11 or 12 could be a mitigating factor in that. Like most people, Sansa could have stood to learn the "see with your eyes, hear with your ears" mantra of Syrio Forel (and the Hound). Had she actually paid attention, instead of seeing her life as a beautiful song, she'd have taken note of Cersei's behavior in the Micah affair and been wary.