Faegon, Varys, Daenerys and Barristan

[Livesundersink]

I had this thought come to me a few days ago and I cannot stop thinking about it. Early in Clash we are told that Barristan was dismissed at the suggestion of Varys, he then proceeds to seek out Daenerys and serves in her Queensguard. At the end of Dance we see Varys kill Pycelle and Kevan, and then he talks about Faegon and his upbringing to be a perfect king. What doesn't seem to make sense is that why wouldn't he seek out Barristan before his departure from King's Landing and lead him toward Faegon while telling him the same as he told Kevan. Having one of the members of Aerys's Kingsguard at this side would no doubt lend a great deal of credibility to Faegon and his claim to the throne, yet he now serves Daenerys. Could this be to protect her until she could possible marry Faegon and unify their claims? Let me know what you guys think of this.

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

I had this thought come to me a few days ago and I cannot stop thinking about it. 

Yeap, we're all ASOIAF nerds here. 

31 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

Early in Clash we are told that Barristan was dismissed at the suggestion of Varys, he then proceeds to seek out Daenerys and serves in her Queensguard. At the end of Dance we see Varys kill Pycelle and Kevan, and then he talks about Faegon and his upbringing to be a perfect king. What doesn't seem to make sense is that why wouldn't he seek out Barristan before his departure from King's Landing and lead him toward Faegon while telling him the same as he told Kevan. Having one of the members of Aerys's Kingsguard at this side would no doubt lend a great deal of credibility to Faegon and his claim to the throne, yet he now serves Daenerys. Could this be to protect her until she could possible marry Faegon and unify their claims? Let me know what you guys think of this.

Barristan has nothing but contempt for Varys. Barristan, however, knows from Varys's reports to the small council that Illyrio has offered succor to the Targlings and sent them off with Jorah and a Dothraki khalasar. 

Illyrio sent Barristan to Daenerys with Groleo to bring her back to Pentos. Unfortunately the best laid plans of the fat man often go awry. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

41 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

I had this thought come to me a few days ago and I cannot stop thinking about it. Early in Clash we are told that Barristan was dismissed at the suggestion of Varys, he then proceeds to seek out Daenerys and serves in her Queensguard. At the end of Dance we see Varys kill Pycelle and Kevan, and then he talks about Faegon and his upbringing to be a perfect king. What doesn't seem to make sense is that why wouldn't he seek out Barristan before his departure from King's Landing and lead him toward Faegon while telling him the same as he told Kevan. Having one of the members of Aerys's Kingsguard at this side would no doubt lend a great deal of credibility to Faegon and his claim to the throne, yet he now serves Daenerys. Could this be to protect her until she could possible marry Faegon and unify their claims? Let me know what you guys think of this.

2 things I’ve considered on this...

the first is pretty much what you said, he instigated the dismissal and directed Barry to Illyrio, then on to Dany. This undermines Joff and adds a legend to the future Targ resurgence tour.

But why not send him straight to Aegon, as we see with Tyrion?

1) Illyrio was hoping Barry would bring Danny back to Pentos, for the funky family reunion, but she stays in slaver’s bay.

2) Barry might be able to expose Aegon for a fraud, and/or has some preexisting dispute or unwillingness to work with Jon Connigton or one of the other mystery companions on the Shy Maid.

That’s the best I’ve come up with...

Although, if you believe that some or all of Varys/Illyrio/Aegon are Blackfyres, then they might have a grudge (or possibly affection for, depending on what Blackfyre line they come from) since Barry is the one who ended the Blackfyre male line on the Stepstones in his youth.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

46 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

Could this be to protect her until she could possible marry Faegon and unify their claims?

This was basically my thinking. Aegon didn't need a protector as much as Dany did, is my guess, as he was in hiding with his party, while Dany was on the wrong side of the world surrounded by enemies, actively being hunted by assassins.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The legendary Ser Barristan the Bold's legend grew considerably when he slew the last of the Blackfyre pretenders in single combat in the Stepstones, while fighting the Golden Company. Since the plan is for the Golden Company to back Aegon's claim, having Barristan standing next to Aegon the Fraud might pose a wee public relations issue. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

having Barristan standing next to Aegon the Fraud might pose a wee public relations issue. 

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of the Gold Company at all. There's probably men in the company whose fathers got carved up by Barristan when he was fighting his way to Maelys. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The legendary Ser Barristan the Bold's legend grew considerably when he slew the last of the Blackfyre pretenders in single combat in the Stepstones, while fighting the Golden Company. Since the plan is for the Golden Company to back Aegon's claim, having Barristan standing next to Aegon the Fraud might pose a wee public relations issue. 

Counterpoint! 

Maelys murdered Daemon (the somethingth) to take control of the Golden Company, presumably because he was the rightful heir.

So depending on who is who, I could see it going any which way!

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Counterpoint! 

Maelys murdered Daemon (the somethingth) to take control of the Golden Company, presumably because he was the rightful heir.

So depending on who is who, I could see it going any which way!

COUNTERcounterpoint!!!

He nevertheless led the Golden Company, and they followed him, didn't split into separate companies, or whatever, so one would assume they were relatively united around Maelys. Irrespective, the company fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and Barristan fought against them.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

COUNTERcounterpoint!!!

He nevertheless led the Golden Company, and they followed him, didn't split into separate companies, or whatever, so one would assume they were relatively united around Maelys. Irrespective, the company fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and Barristan fought against them.

I don’t have a good cccpoint... and everything you said seemed accurate to me, just wanted to raise the issue since if any of Illyrio/Varys are Blackfyres there is probably some reason they weren’t fighting on the Stepstones with Maelys.

In addition, the Golden Company is now manned by a new generation.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Barristan was sacked after Viserys's death and well before the death of Drogo (before they take the Lzhareen town and he is injured). Perhaps the plan all along was that Barristan would end up with Aegon, right away, that he would take that same trip that Tyrion took and meet up with Jon Connington and the rest of the people. Maybe Barristan is as eager as Jon Connington to believe that some small part of Rhaegar lives on. And if he knows that, then it's Aegon he would have sought, not Viserys. Barristan tells Dany that Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was. 

I could buy the idea of the Golden Company to some extent, oil and water and all, but Barristan has been shown to swallow his pride and honor in Meereen when he started working with Skahaz after Dany flew from of the city. I think Barristan would have set all of this aside to serve Aegon if it came down to it.

By the time Barristan meets Illyrio, Dany is in Qarth and that's where Barry goes to find her to bring her back to Pentos. And since Illyrio knows where she is, he also knows what she did with the dragon eggs he gave her. Illyrio would have given a fig about Dany if she hadn't hatched herself three dragons.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

just wanted to raise the issue since if any of Illyrio/Varys are Blackfyres there is probably some reason they weren’t fighting on the Stepstones with Maelys.

In addition, the Golden Company is now manned by a new generation.

All true. The Maelys story always interested me, as we don't really know how exactly he was descended from the Blackfyres do we? I think his leadership stint/death marked the Company's transition from a Blackfyre supporters exile movement into the more traditional free company.

[divica]

Another thing.

Given what barristan thinks about varys and that he has loads of experience at court why would he believe varys changed the babies and has raised Aegon in secret all this time? 

On the other hand he could be used to press danny to come back to westeros faster (as he tries to do in dance) and make her more indebted to illirio.

And this way varys doesn t need to be involved in the public story about how Aegon survived... I doubt many people would believe that varys and illirio have secretly protected Aegon all this time... It will have to include people with better reputation like jon con and someone that might have been in KL at the time (maybe septa lemore?)

[bent branch]

First, Barristan took himself to Dany. This is very important as Barristan wouldn't have done anything he thought he was being manipulated into. Second, Barristan is going to serve as a bridge between Dany and Aegon's camp. Whatever story convinced both JonCon and Tyrion that Aegon was Rhaegar's son is also going to convince Barristan. And it is through Barristan that Dany will be convinced.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don’t have a good cccpoint... and everything you said seemed accurate to me, just wanted to raise the issue since if any of Illyrio/Varys are Blackfyres there is probably some reason they weren’t fighting on the Stepstones with Maelys.

In addition, the Golden Company is now manned by a new generation.

I don't thin Varys and Illyrio are of an age with Hoster Tully and Barristan Selmy. Those guys are described as old. Varys and Illyrio are never described as old. But perhaps Illyrion was a young squire in service to a high officer in the Golden Company in the Stepstones, oposite Kevan and Tygett Lannister for example. That's pure speculation, but it certainly would not surprise me. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Barristan was sacked after Viserys's death and well before the death of Drogo (before they take the Lzhareen town and he is injured). Perhaps the plan all along was that Barristan would end up with Aegon, right away, that he would take that same trip that Tyrion took and meet up with Jon Connington and the rest of the people. Maybe Barristan is as eager as Jon Connington to believe that some small part of Rhaegar lives on. And if he knows that, then it's Aegon he would have sought, not Viserys. Barristan tells Dany that Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was. 

I could buy the idea of the Golden Company to some extent, oil and water and all, but Barristan has been shown to swallow his pride and honor in Meereen when he started working with Skahaz after Dany flew from of the city. I think Barristan would have set all of this aside to serve Aegon if it came down to it.

By the time Barristan meets Illyrio, Dany is in Qarth and that's where Barry goes to find her to bring her back to Pentos. And since Illyrio knows where she is, he also knows what she did with the dragon eggs he gave her. Illyrio would have given a fig about Dany if she hadn't hatched herself three dragons.

He might have been willing, but why antagonize the men of the Golden Company? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

All true. The Maelys story always interested me, as we don't really know how exactly he was descended from the Blackfyres do we? I think his leadership stint/death marked the Company's transition from a Blackfyre supporters exile movement into the more traditional free company.

Here is how the Golden Company is described in the year 300--40 years after Maelys was killed...

Quote

The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It's home they want, as much as gold. 

The Soiled Knight, Feast 13

Quote

Spoiler

 

“Do you play cyvasse, my lord?” asked Arianne.  “My father has been teaching me. I am not very skilled, I must confess, but I do know that the dragon is stronger than the elephant.”

“The Golden Company was founded by a dragon.”

“Bittersteel was half-dragon, and all bastard. I am no maester, but I know some history. You are still sellswords.”

“If it please you, princess,” he said, all silken courtesy. “We prefer to call ourselves a free brotherhood of exiles.”

“As you will. As free brothers go, your company stands well above the rest, I grant you. Yet the Golden Company has been defeated every time it has crossed into Westeros. They lost when Bittersteel commanded them, they failed the Blackfyre Pretenders, they faltered when Maelys the Monstrous led them.

That seemed to amuse him. “We are at least persistent, you must admit. And some of those defeats were near things.”

 

 

Arianne II, Winds

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

First, Barristan took himself to Dany. This is very important as Barristan wouldn't have done anything he thought he was being manipulated into. Second, Barristan is going to serve as a bridge between Dany and Aegon's camp. Whatever story convinced both JonCon and Tyrion that Aegon was Rhaegar's son is also going to convince Barristan. And it is through Barristan that Dany will be convinced.

Indeed. And Jon Connington will help convince Ser Barristan, I think. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He might have been willing, but why antagonize the men of the Golden Company? 

The war of the ninepenny kings happened 40 years ago in the timeline. 

And here's my question. If Aegon is a fake, how many people in the Golden Company know that? 

Even if the knowledge is contained to a few officers, the rest of the company believe they are invading Westeros in support of a Targaryen. 

Barristan was fired from his position in the Kingsguard after Viserys was killed, (something that Varys may have already known when he suggested Barristan be relieved from his duties), before Drogo died, before Dany hatched her dragons. This is the timeline we are presented with. 

Barristan wanted to find Viserys when he got to Pentos. Would Illyrio have sent Barristan to bring Dany back to Pentos if she had not hatched dragons? Barristan lends legitimacy to whoever has him by their side. That's the whole reason Renly wanted Barristan with him. 

I guess there could be friction between Barristan and members of the Golden Company, but at the end of the day, these people want to go home.

[Curled Finger]

Barristan Selmy wasn't brought into Rhaegar's confidence despite all the admiration Selmy had for his prince.   He's got a rep as a loyalist to the nth degree.  Selmy isn't a man for intrigues.  He's your basic badass with all a real badass's qualities.  No body likes Varys with the possible exception of Tyrion who seems to need Varys more than actually like him.  

Barristan did indeed take himself to Dany.    In the end he's as driven to serve as Stannis is to duty. And he's not a stupid or foolish man.  He believes in Dany and he believes in a Targaryan restoration.  It's highly doubtful he would fall for any "heir" hidden among the Golden Company.   Their name is synonymous with betrayal and usurping.  Aegon and his group may be able to convince younger people who did not fight against the Blackfyres, but there is no way everyone will fall for this ruse.  Selmy would not likely lend his reputation to anything the Golden Company is involved in.  Should, as we suspect, Blackfyre return to the fore in Aegon's plot, you can take it to the bank it will prove his Blackfyre roots far more than any Targaryan claim he would have.   

That Illyrio provided the passage to Dany is suspect and I tend to agree with those who believe he was sent with Strong Belwas to protect Dany for Aegon--eventually.  Barristan the Bold is of far greater use with Dany on the other side of the world than in the thick of battle with old foes.   

[divica]

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Barristan Selmy wasn't brought into Rhaegar's confidence despite all the admiration Selmy had for his prince.   He's got a rep as a loyalist to the nth degree.  Selmy isn't a man for intrigues.  He's your basic badass with all a real badass's qualities.  No body likes Varys with the possible exception of Tyrion who seems to need Varys more than actually like him.  

Barristan did indeed take himself to Dany.    In the end he's as driven to serve as Stannis is to duty. And he's not a stupid or foolish man.  He believes in Dany and he believes in a Targaryan restoration.  It's highly doubtful he would fall for any "heir" hidden among the Golden Company.   Their name is synonymous with betrayal and usurping.  Aegon and his group may be able to convince younger people who did not fight against the Blackfyres, but there is no way everyone will fall for this ruse.  Selmy would not likely lend his reputation to anything the Golden Company is involved in.  Should, as we suspect, Blackfyre return to the fore in Aegon's plot, you can take it to the bank it will prove his Blackfyre roots far more than any Targaryan claim he would have.   

That Illyrio provided the passage to Dany is suspect and I tend to agree with those who believe he was sent with Strong Belwas to protect Dany for Aegon--eventually.  Barristan the Bold is of far greater use with Dany on the other side of the world than in the thick of battle with old foes.   

I think we could go even further.

Without knowing the identity of septa lemore the only thing that gives legitimacy to fAegon is jon con.

If people find out about his grey scale and he has to leave then even if Aegon is already on the IT there will always be suspicions about him...