Children of Hurin

[Maltaran]

But I will state, without reservations, that nothing that has Christopher's name attached is 1/50th of the quality of the work of the real Tolkien alone. And there's a reason for that.

What, he had a better editor when he was alive?

But seriously, assuming that we're being told the truth when they say that everything in the Sil and the rest of it was written by Tolkien, then the editing is the only thing that's going to make such a huge impact on the quality of the work compared to LOTR.

[Paddy]

Well, apart from variance in the author's quality, which we see everywhere; the fact that JRRT intended and polished up LotR to be published, which he didn't do for the other stuff; the fact that his input was almost certainly present in any editorial decisions for LotR; the fact that he wrote the LotR as a complete story, whereas all these other books are put together from notes in his world building and thus contain gaps which somebody has to fill in.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer here, I'm just sayin' is all. After, you could apply the same logic to The Silmarillion, but I and most other readers of both it and LotR would tell you that it's no where near as good.

There's no way Children of Hurin will be as regarded as LotR. And while it's technically possible for it to be as good as LotR, if there was such a thing as an objective way to qualify such things, I'd not be afraid to make a hefty bet that it wont come close.

[Maltaran]

I concede the point.

[Ran]

Stego,

Scholarly, to me, is what TerraPrime does for a living.

What, are you implying that the only scholarship that exists in the world is in the sciences?

CT is not doing anything greatly different from what Tolkien did when collecting his commentary to the "Fight at Finnsburgh". If you're saying Tolkien wasn't a scholar...

Both JRRT and CT were/are classically-trained scholars. It's no great surprise that CT approached the material with his training in mind. It suits it, for one thing.

Scholarly, to me, is not mining my father's notes for the living he was never able to make during his lifetime.

You seem to be implying that CT was nothing but a parasite on his father until his father's death, when he became a parasite of his father's work. That's utter crap, and I hope it's just ignorance rather than some sort of misguided malice.

CT was a lecturer and tutor for a number of years after the war (during the war, he was a pilot in the RAF). He produced commentaries and translations of Norse and Middle English literature (little different from what his father did as a scholar), until he recieved a fellowship at the New College in Oxford, which he held for more than ten years before resigning it.

But I will state, without reservations, that nothing that has Christopher's name attached is 1/50th of the quality of the work of the real Tolkien alone

Are you familiar with CT's commentary on "The Battle of the Goths and the Huns", or his translation of the Hervarar saga? Or, basically, anything else he's produced in his professional life?

[Nerdanel]

I happen to think The Silmarillion is the best book in the universe (that I've read anyway), as you might guess from my choice of alias.

Just saying...

[Stego]

Heh.

Ran, what percentage of his income is derived from his own work and what percentage from his father's? CT's work is inconsequential. Especially when held up next to his father's. And yes, I do believe that much like Herbert's progeny, he is a parasite.

And yes, I do believe that literary scholars are barely deserving of the name compared to scientific scholars. This is coming from someone who desires to be something of a speculative fiction scholar.

It's not that I do not appreciate art. I love it. I live for it. Yet I am capable of putting it in context.

[Ran]

Stego,

You erroneously claimed that he did not make a living that did not revolve around his father. It is patently untrue, and I've shown this to be the case, so you could at least have the grace to acknowledge this before turning to the dick-measuring of, "How many dollars did he make with that career vs. this one?" I doubt it was inconsequential to him or his family at the time that he was a lecturer, just as Tolkien's career as a lecturer was not inconsequential to him or his family at the time that he was pursuing it.

No comment on the rest, as I'm too over-awed to form any coherent response.

[Paddy]

I happen to think The Silmarillion is the best book in the universe (that I've read anyway), as you might guess from my choice of alias.

Just saying...

The way I said:

you could apply the same logic to The Silmarillion, but I and most other readers of both it and LotR would tell you that it's no where near as good.

instead of:

It's shite and no one likes it

was supposed to indicate that I realise that there are people who think it's better, but loads dont and I'd suspect that the vast majority of readers of both works would be in that latter bracket

PS: For the record, I like The Silmarillion, but I found lots of it to be extremely dull, but then it's not really a novel, is it?

[Multaniette]

PS: For the record, I like The Silmarillion, but I found lots of it to be extremely dull, but then it's not really a novel, is it?

whatever it is, it is the best book ever published.

and i can't thank chris tolkien enough for the work he put in compiling sil, ut and home. he has my greatest and most sincerest respect for that.

[Arakasi]

Add me to the list of people who far prefer the Silmarillion.

[Miriel]

Add me to that Silmarillion list as well! I love The Lord of the Rings, but The Silmarillion is my all time favorite book. It is the most lyrical, beautiful, and tragic thing I have ever read.

ETA: Can't wait for the publication of The Children of Hurin.

[Werthead]

Scholarly, to me, is not mining my father's notes for the living he was never able to make during his lifetime.

Be thankful for it all you like. Enjoy it. I do not begrudge you that. But I will state, without reservations, that nothing that has Christopher's name attached is 1/50th of the quality of the work of the real Tolkien alone. And there's a reason for that.

I assume you are aware that Christopher Tolkien was also the nearest thing that JRRT had to an editor on The Lord of the Rings whilst it was being written? And that many of CT's suggestions and comments were taken on board by JRRT when he was engaged in rewrites? And that CT helped his father in keeping track of details in the books and assembled the maps? CT's influence on Tolkien's work when he was still alive was tremendous.

It should also be noted that JRRT gave CT his full permission for him to edit The Silmarillion and in fact spent the last few years of his life putting the notes and materials in order for the book to be published, well aware that he might not live to see it done. JRRT also fully intended the completed essays on topics such as the Istari, the military organisation of the Rohirrim and so forth as seen in Unfinished Tales to be made available to the public.

The real problem, I assume, lies with The History of Middle-earth series, which is a slightly harder case to answer. First off, it is a rather dry work and, since the drafts and materials it showcases have all been supersceded by later information in the published Middle-earth books, it is broadly non-canonical. However, there is vital information presented in these books which do deepen an understanding of the published work. Particularly of interest are the maps of northern and north-eastern Middle-earth (beyond the edges of the maps in LotR) shown in The Treason of Isengard, and the work on the cosomology of Arda show in The Shaping of Middle-earth, which help establish the shape of the world in the early pre-historical phase of the world. This material is stuff Tolkien never seems to have changed, and thus publishing it is of interest to Tolkien fans.

Secondly, these books are bloody hard to read. Do you really want to read five different drafts of a deleted version of the Prancing Pony scene where Aragorn is actually a dodgy Hobbit called Trotter? With exacting commentary on why JRRT chaged wording in one sentence and left another untouched? The HoME series has sold, at best, a tiny fraction of what the other, 'proper' Tolkien books have. Chris Tolkien's fortune, I would wager, mostly comes from him being the manger of his father's literary estate (and thus handles the income from royalties for LotR and The Hobbit). His fifteen-year endeavour in compiling HoME, purely for the attention of perhaps at best a few tens of thousands of dedicated Tolkien fanatics, when he could have otherwise sat at home with his feet up and watched the LotR royalty cheques come pouring in (surely more appropriate action for a 'parasite'), is more surprising in this light.

Would Tolkien have approved of the HoME? Yes. He wanted people to look at his work in a professional and academic manner. That's why he sold the manuscripts to the American universities in the first place. Tolkien was also quite poor for much of his life (not even the success of The Hobbit in the late 1930s allowed him to retire) and, frankly, didn't have a problem with milking his books for every penny they were worth. He sold the radio adaption rights to The Lord of the Rings to the BBC in the late 1950s (he hated the result); and he sold the film rights a decade or so later (whilst claiming that the books could never be filmed). If the same marketing opportunities existed then as they do now, he'd have given away licenses without a second's hesitation, and probably wouldn't have cared about the end product's quality as long as cash was in his pocket to secure his retirement and the future of his children (whom he didn't want growing up with the same problems he did). To quote the man himself: "There is a great deal to be said for the grosser forms of literary success."

Well, apart from variance in the author's quality, which we see everywhere; the fact that JRRT intended and polished up LotR to be published, which he didn't do for the other stuff

As mentioned above, he did intend for the 'other stuff' to be published

the fact that his input was almost certainly present in any editorial decisions for LotR; the fact that he wrote the LotR as a complete story, whereas all these other books are put together from notes in his world building and thus contain gaps which somebody has to fill in.

The gaps in the stories in Unfinished Tales and the HoME books are actually left empty, usually with a brief editorial paragraph explaining that this part of the manuscript was lost or illegible. They are not 'filled in'. They are, however, in the latter parts of The Silmarillion (which CT felt uncomfortable doing alone, which is why he called in GGK).

I'm not trying to be a naysayer here, I'm just sayin' is all. After, you could apply the same logic to The Silmarillion, but I and most other readers of both it and LotR would tell you that it's no where near as good.

IMHO, The Silmarillion is most outstanding feat of imaginative writing achieved in literature to date. It's not as readable as Lord of the Rings, to be certain, but far more imagination and inventiveness has gone into it (understandable, as 56 years of work went into it as opposed to 'just' 12 years for LotR) and it is a far, far more emotionally powerful work. It is not a novel and would not work at all as a novel. But as a work of imaginative fiction, I do not believe The Silmarillion has been equalled, whilst there are several works I count as superior to Lord of the Rings (starting with ASoIaF).

I can see why people think it is possible that The Children of Hurin may well be the first instance of CT overstepping his boundaries as an editor in order to make the story work, since I don't think it is possible to combine three or more distinct works written in time periods decades removed from one another when JRRT's style was very different in each case. However, he claims to have done it and given the length of the notes at the front of the book (ten pages from the look of it), it will be interesting to read the explanation for how he did it.

[kuenjato]

uh, yeah, what Wert said.

Count me in as another one who prefers the Silmarillion to LotR -- it has so much more imagination and emotional power, IMO, especially for a 'non' novel.

[Paddy]

As mentioned above, he did intend for the 'other stuff' to be published

I just see most of that stuff as the equivalent of his research notes and if he'd done it, he'd have published them as such (well polished up, as you would) and that "marketing" it, for want of a better word, as a novel was not exactly what he'd have considered.

IMHO, The Silmarillion is most outstanding feat of imaginative writing achieved in literature to date. It's not as readable as Lord of the Rings, to be certain, but far more imagination and inventiveness has gone into it (understandable, as 56 years of work went into it as opposed to 'just' 12 years for LotR) and it is a far, far more emotionally powerful work. It is not a novel and would not work at all as a novel. But as a work of imaginative fiction, I do not believe The Silmarillion has been equalled, whilst there are several works I count as superior to Lord of the Rings (starting with ASoIaF).

Again, I'm wasn't saying that the Silmarillion wasn't impressive. As seen in this thread, there's a lot of love for it. My posting about it was simply to demonstrate that there's no guarantee any way of the quality of this new release.

I still say, though, that The Silmarillion is far and away most appreciated by those who are interested in discovering the history of Middle Earth and those who are interested in World Building and the sort of creative mythology creation which The Silmarillion undeniably is. And I think it was probably supposed to be that way that JRRT was thinking of it for it to be published. I think that these people are a minority of those that read it and for the majority, The Silmarillion is a tough read, dull in parts and brilliant in others.

Thus, I think that as a novel (which, I'm pretty confident, is what the majority of people come to it expecting) it is rather uneven, but as notes of research and backgrounding (of unbelievable depth) it is pristine.

[Stego]

Stego,

You erroneously claimed that he did not make a living that did not revolve around his father. \

No. No I did not.

Could you please show me where I purportedly stated this?

When you're done being over-awed, that is.

***ETA:

Did you mean this sentence?

"Scholarly, to me, is not mining my father's notes for the living he was never able to make during his lifetime."

Read it again. I think you misread it.

I was stating that Christopher has made more money off the work of his father than his father ever did.

[Ran]

All right. The sentence you wrote can certainly be understood that he did not have any sort of living to speak of prior to his father's death. I did ask if you were implying if he was a parasite off of his father and _then_ of his father's work, and you only responded to the latter half rather than clarifying your intent.

In any case, Wert's further thoughts on the matter reflect my own. CT wrote the HoME to do what his father was willing to have others do, and CT did it from a uniquely qualified position as a trained scholar and a collaborator with his father. The suggestion CT did it to cash some paychecks ignores the fact that he'd probably be able to more profitably spend his time fishing than going through the painstaking work of putting together the volumes. The Tolkien Estate's very conservative, rather uncommercial stance towards protecting JRRT's work while under the leadership of CT is, I think, a testament in itself to CT's overriding concern in all this is protecting his father's legacy and having it treated with respect.

[Eurytus]

I just see most of that stuff as the equivalent of his research notes and if he'd done it, he'd have published them as such (well polished up, as you would) and that "marketing" it, for want of a better word, as a novel was not exactly what he'd have considered.

If by "other stuff" you mean the Silmarillion then Tolkien certainly did intend for it to be published. He originally intended it and the LotR to be published at the same time as companion pieces. Indeed he even switched to another publisher when they promised to do just that. (that did not work out in the end). And subsequent to the LotR's publication he revised the Silmarillion up until his death in the hope for publication. (he just gave himself more and more over to prevarication unfortunately and so never finished).

And you can add me to the list of people who prefer the Silmarillion to the LotR.

[Paddy]

Yes, Wert already stated that and I didn't contradict him.

[Calibandar]

I think this thread pretty much shows that whatever you do, there will always be someone around who'll accuse you of cashing it in or profiteering of another's work. Even a book as un-commercial and to most people downright unreadable as The History of Middle-Earth , a book with as many notes and commentaries as actual text, is apparantly only one more way to make a quick buck.

The criticism of CT in this thread is just so...........uninformed.

Everything Christopher Tolkien has done has been absolute SHITE.

The Silmarillion is only medicore and not complete shite because of the work of Guy Gavriel Kay.

there is nothing scholarly about his 'work.'

There is nothing scholarly about what CT has published, that can only be said by those unaware of what he has actually published. And then to see Guy Kay mentioned as the person responsible for any redeeming qualities of the Silmarillion, I mean, where to begin? It feels as if you're being trolled and someone is about come out shouting " Candid Camera" once you've replied. Anyone who has actually read CT's work would know that Guy Kay's primary contribution was helping CT smooth out some of the final chapters, which held some gaps of narrative and style differences. This was a decade before Kay actually published his first book.

As for Children of Hurin, anyone who compared the table of contents to the chapters of Turin in the Silmarillion and the chapters of the Narn will see it's almost a perfect match. Any " new material" will be disappointingly minor.

But I will state, without reservations, that nothing that has Christopher's name attached is 1/50th of the quality of the work of the real Tolkien alone

Newsflash: CT did not write the Silmarillion, the writings are of his father. You know, the real Tolkien.

And don't tell me you already knew this because the posts above clearly indicate that you do not. There is no ambiguity about how they should be interpreted. They are not being misread.

[Ser Daven Lannister]

Personally, Turin Turambar is my favorite character in any of the Middle-earth's history. Though if it's only marginally different from the tale in Silmarillion and HoME, I doubt I'll be wasting money on it.

Say what you want about CT, but I am thankful that he decided to compile his father's notes and publish them as a further background source for LotR. By reading Silmarillion and the HoME, you can fully appreciate Tolkien's genius. Has anyone else so fully developed a fantasy world as him? The answer is no.

I doubt CT did it for the money. He did it for the fans, man.