Babylon 5

[AverageGuy]

I know there are a couple other threads on the show, but they seem to be review threads, full of spoilers I'd rather not read if the consensus is good.

I just watched the first episode on Hulu. I never watched it back in the day. Does it get better?

The dialogue was amazingly bad, and the way it was delivered, with these big pauses between the speeches of any two characters, that psi officer obviously trying to remember her lines in her first appearance (the way she kept on looking down, and the way her voice went up and down, I think she actually may have planted a script), the commander of the space station showing no intensity during the battle (and why does [i]he[/i] even go out in the field anyway?), the heavy, [i]heavy[/i] exposition, and just general awkwardness all around...

The CGI was probably good back when, but now it looks like they're flying in badly rendered X-wings. And the plot! Especially the plot convenience of these raiders who come out of nowhere and end up in a perfect position to be used as bargaining chips, just isn't that good.

There were some good actors. The two main aliens, the one ambassador with all the hair and the other one with the spots, the Narn, actually seemed to do a decent job.

This show is generally loved around here. I have to assume that the plot gets more focused, the actors get better, etc. If not, it may not be for me, a personal taste thing.

So, does it get better, and [i]when[/i] does it get better?

[Ran]

JMS's shows always start very slowly. It does get better. For the first season, here's the best episodes:

5: Parliament of Dreams (Some subtle arc stuff, some amusing stuff)
6: Mind War (Cool SFnal stuff with the Psi-Corps, and the introduction of everyone's favorite villain, Bester)
8: And the Sky Full of Stars (Arc stuff, touches on what happened to Sinclair at the Battle of the Line)
9: Deathwalker (Good SFnal concept)
10: Believers (The sort of episode that would end up touchy-feely on Star Trek, but not here. Also a great line from Kosh)
11: Survivors (Garibaldi character episode, with a good Londo bit)
13: Signs and Portents (this is where the 5 year arc really explodes onto the scene; excellent work all around)
16: Eyes (Some internal shakeup)
17: Legacies (Introduction of Neroon, a secondary Minbari character who'll be important down the road)
18-19: Voices in the Wilderness (the Great Machine introduced)
20: Babylon Squared (Great SFnal episode, with time travel stuff that touches heavily on the arc)
22: Chrysalis (Final episode, pretty taut and exciting, an important arc episode)

[potsherds]

Just to help clear up Ran's post, Season 1 really is pretty bad. Although you honestly can't afford to miss a lot of it, because the entire series ties together. Season 2 is better and S3 and S4 are wonderful. The entire story as a whole is well worth the cringeworthy eps at the beginning.

[Ran]

[url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=26658&view=findpost&p=1247329"]Here[/url] I made an even more concise list of the first season episodes that are the "must see" if you want to get the most out of the show's arc. If you try those out and you don't get anywhere, the show's not for you.

[Werthead]

I'd agree with most of Ran's list apart from [i]Mind War[/i], which has some of the most atrocious dialogue in the show's history and a really hokey, OTT ending.

Overall, [b]B5[/b]'s biggest problems are 1) that a lot of the dialogue is very stiff and expository and isn't very natural or convincing, and 2) some of the actors on the show are so awesome that others look pretty atrocious by comparison. Peter Jurasik (Londo) and Andreas Katsulas (G'Kar) are both so good, and Mira Furlan (Delenn) is pretty decent as well for the first two seasons or so (her later decline is more the result of bad writing than the actress' fault), that a lot of the other actors suffer in comparison. It takes a few eps for Claudia Christian (Ivanova) and Jerry Doyle (Garibaldi) to find their feet, although both get a lot better as the series proceeds. Doyle's improvement over the five seasons is particularly impressive. Michael O'Hare (Sinclair) is woeful. He is decent in a few episodes, but usually either underacts to the point of catatonia or overacts to the point of ludicrousness.

The show does improve markedly, and Seasons 2-3 are excellent. 4 is okay, but was somewhat rushed to resolve storylines prematurely. However, the resolution to most of the storylines was done well.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1461687' date='Jul 30 2008, 01.25']I just watched the first episode on Hulu. I never watched it back in the day. Does it get better?[/quote]

The pilot, or the first broadcast episode?

Y'know, it doesn't matter, either way, they're both tossers for the most part.

It may be a bit of a struggle, and there ARE other lulls, but there are plenty of good parts.

[quote]There were some good actors. The two main aliens, the one ambassador with all the hair and the other one with the spots, the Narn, actually seemed to do a decent job.[/quote]

Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas are indeed two of the best actors anywhere. I swear, they could make a commercial for personal hygiene products a work of high art.

[quote]So, does it get better, and [i]when[/i] does it get better?[/quote]

Well, there's always any episode with Bester.

Ok, maybe not Ironheart.

But really, Koenig's great even then.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Ill make it simple: First season sucks. But it is necessary because it has introductory information, a bit of story and some buildup for future seasons. You cant avoit it, you have to see it to fully experience the show.

The CG improves, the settings, customs, acting, music and everything else improve too. So keep watching.

Most good shows Ive seen so far suffer from the same problem.

[mandy_k]

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1461687' date='Jul 30 2008, 08.25']This show is generally loved around here. I have to assume that the plot gets more focused, the actors get better, etc. If not, it may not be for me, a personal taste thing.[/quote]

No conclusive answer to that. There are quite a few people don't like the show, for different reasons.
Things that could turn you off:
1) The series relies heavily on CGI (in fact, in the 1990s it was a pioneer in the use of CGI) and those CGI nowadays look dated; though they improve in later seasons, they never achieve current standards.
2) The budget was considerably smaller than for the average Trek episode, and again, especially during the first seasons, it shows in the production values of the sets.
3) The series often uses a theatrical element not everyone is a fan of; meaning that writing and acting aren't intended to be "real" drama, but operatic drama. The acting and dialogue are often deliberately a bit over the top to reinforce the dramatic themes the characters represent. It's not what you usually see on TV, and as a result, some people consider it stilted. It works better with some actors (noteably those with stage experience) than with others. The theatrical element also shows in the lighting, the setting, which especially in later seasons sometimes resembles stage theater settings. It also often resembles a musical in the pacing structure of many episodes and arcs. It was an experiment attempting at orchestrating something like a theater set in space and done for TV, and as all experiments sometimes it succeeded and sometimes it failed.
4) Characters in the show are a mixed assembly of archetypes and real people as well as some sort of hybrids in between; accordingly some of them (usually the minor characters) appear stylised and don't act or talk like "real people".
5) Exposition: you'll have to deal with a LOT of exposition during season 1, but frankly, I don't see any other way to do that kind of show.

If you are uncomfortable with any of these elements, the show might not be for you.

[Dumas]

I'll go with the consensus and say that season one is the worst season after season five. But the nature of the series and its overall storyline require that you watch at least those episodes the guys pointed out. A lot of events in seasons 2-4 only make sense in the context of events in season 1. It sets up [i]everything[/i], including two major wars.

[MinDonner]

I'm going to differ from the rest here and say that you DON'T need to watch Season 1 in order to appreciate the rest. When B5 was on TV the first time, I only started watching it near the end of Season 2, and that was enough to get an idea of what was going on. Later I bought Season 1 to see what I'd missed, and really, while there were a few bits n pieces that were nice to see, it wasn't really essential. Season 1 sucks; 2, 3 and 4 are MUCH MUCH better.

[Shryke]

Watching S2 before S1 spoils "And the Sky Full of Stars" which is such an awesome episode.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Also, once you finish watching B5 you wish there was more, even bad episodes. And watching those early episodes after watching the other ones make you enjoy them much less than if you had watched them from the begining.

There is also some character development in the series, so if you watch the first season you get to see the characters in other kinds of situation. You can see a lot of changes in how GKar and Londo, specially, behave. And those are two of the biggest characters in the show, if not the two major characters of the show.

[williamjm]

I agree with what the others said that the first season is quite variable in quality but the second, third and fourth seasons are excellent.

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1461687' date='Jul 30 2008, 07.25']the commander of the space station showing no intensity during the battle (and why does [i]he[/i] even go out in the field anyway?)[/quote]

The commander going out in the field isn't a sensible strategy, but it does fit Sinclair's character - he feels guilty that he survived the Battle of the Line when the rest of his squadron were killed and he can't even remember how he survived and so he often seems to have a bit of a death wish in the first season.

[Shryke]

yeah, they actually deal with that in the shitty episode "Infection". As Garabaldi puts it, he's "looking for something worth dying for, because it's easier then finding something worth living for".

[Ashamanic]

yeah. I'm a big fan, but even I say infection was a bad episode - probably the only one in the entire season, though TKO and Grail were pretty weak

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

You absolutely do not want to watch Infection.

My first time through, I skipped The Gathering, Soul Hunter, Infection, TKO...and I think a few others, but don't recall which. Doing so was a [i]very[/i] good idea, and didn't hinder my understanding of the show at all.

Yes, S1 is a bit shit. Maybe even a lot shit. Soldier through. It's worth it. Eventually.

[Humble Asskicker]

I can't even tell you how much I hated the first season. With the exception of a couple stand-out episodes, it eclipsed the notion of stupid television and transcended into something...entirely new, is the only way I can put it. I was constantly cheered on by my friend, who was hardcore about his Babylon 5, but I spent almost the whole of the first season wondering what the hell I was doing watching what seemed to be Star Trek's bastard crack child.

It's bad, bad, bad and to endure it is to do something remarkable. For which there is a remarkable reward. Once you struggle through the first season, and a lot of the second, that's where Babylon 5 becomes good. And then gets better. Until it finally reaches a plateau of quality that is a great treat to behold. And then suddenly deflates into shitiness when Season 5 starts, gaining slight momentum here and there but mostly carrying on with the same tepidness.

Seasons 2.5-4 aren't flawless (well, four is). Sometimes those lame "stand-alone" episodes rudely intrude, but when the show is focused on the main story arc, it's brilliant.

You should carry on, man. It is worth it.

[Dumas]

Think of it as a rite of passage, a proof that you are worthy to behold the glories of season 4.

Or just think of us as sadistic bastards trying to dress up 'We suffered through it, so you should too.'

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='AverageGuy' post='1461687' date='Jul 30 2008, 02.25']the commander of the space station showing no intensity during the battle [b](and why does [i]he[/i] even go out in the field anyway?)[/b], the heavy, [i]heavy[/i] exposition, and just general awkwardness all around...[/quote]That's actually addressed in the series.

[AverageGuy]

Okay, I watched Parliament of Dreams and Mind War, and they were better. The actors seem a little more comfortable with their roles. Mind War seemed to be more focused plotwise-- the subplot where Catherine sees the giant space tree was a little weird, but it did what throwaway plots should do by adding some depth to Gakar. I think I'll just plow through Ran's list and head into season 2, maybe come back to season 1 later if I'm feeling completist. Or masochistic ;)

Thanks, guys :)