Sandor Clegane - alive

[Silverx2]

The book does specifically point out that the gravedigger's face is hidden.

And what did the elder brother bury? He says "i buried him myself" and offered to show her the burial.

maybe it was a play on words, but for that to be the case he would have needed to bury the Helm as that was the defining object of "the hound".

More so saying the "hound is dead" as opposed to Sandor is dead, doesn't make sense. if you are separating the two, with the hound being the soldier/warrior and sandor being the man behind the mask, Then the hound would continue to live on just because someone still wears the helmet. Think of it similar to the princess bride, the dread pirate Roberts isnt a person so much as an idea, many people have worn the mask and its the mask that makes him, more so then the person.

Thus when the elder brother tells brienne "the man you hunt is dead" he does not refer to the hound being dead, but sandor. as the Hound still lives on, maybe not "the hound" shes looking for but still "the hound".

Again i hope i'm wrong, but some of these wild theories are crazy.

[mormont]

And what did the elder brother bury? He says "i buried him myself" and offered to show her the burial.

maybe it was a play on words, but for that to be the case he would have needed to bury the Helm as that was the defining object of "the hound".

Who knows? Maybe nothing. A grave doesn't need to have anything in it - particularly if it marks the spot where nothing but an identity is interred.

More so saying the "hound is dead" as opposed to Sandor is dead, doesn't make sense. if you are separating the two, with the hound being the soldier/warrior and sandor being the man behind the mask, Then the hound would continue to live on just because someone still wears the helmet.

An argument claiming that one metaphorical interpretation invalidates another? Not particularly strong.

The Hound is no Dread Pirate Roberts, the more so when the Elder Brother 'buried' him - as this was before Lem took up the helm.

Again i hope i'm wrong, but some of these wild theories are crazy.

Some are. But this one is relatively well-founded. It may not be true, of course, but if it's not there are a number of red herrings floating around in that chapter.

[alguien]

How is it not clear that the larger-than-Brienne, hound-petting, hooded-with-his-face-hidden, limping gravedigger isn't Sandor Clegane? There is tons of evidence for this.

What convinced me was how much insight the Elder Brother had into his soul. Unless Sandor had an hour long death and was unusually soul-bearing, (instead of swearing per usual) how is it that the Elder Brother knew so much about his life? Its pretty clear that he learned all from subsequent conversations (or confessions) with Sandor as he healed.

Given GRRM's penchant for using inspiration from other fiction, its seems to me that Sandor Clegane is sort of following in the footsteps of the character Rodrigo Mendoza (played by Robert Deniro) in The Mission. Angry guy who hated his brother (though Deniro's character actually killed his brother IIRC--for very different reasons), goes and finds peace living in a retreat with holy men.

It would be very a great scene to watch if the island were attacked and Sandor Clegane had to take up the sword once more.

[Silverx2]

so only the hound was bigger then brienne and also liked to pet dogs? by this logic maybe the grave digger is actually Hodar after he sprained his ankle..

hodar hodar hodar HODAR

[Rakka]

Who is this Hodar person? Someone with an uncanny knack for finding hookers?

Things are not in the text for nothing. Purposefully guiding the eyes of the reader toward the large limping man who doesn't reveal his face would be quite cheap trick if it wasn't Sandor. And you're again ignoring that the Elder Brother also describes himself as having died.

[alguien]

so only the hound was bigger then brienne and also liked to pet dogs? by this logic maybe the grave digger is actually Hodar after he sprained his ankle..

hodar hodar hodar HODAR

HoDOR.

And your argument might have a little more weight if you addressed how the Elder Brother knew all he did about Sandor, how they were able to coax the untameable Stranger to the island, why the Elder Brother did not just say, "Yes," when Brienne asked if Sandor Clegane was dead, but instead said, "He is at peace."

But maybe you're right. Maybe GRRM just introduced a mystery, giant, limping gravedigger who liked dogs for no reason at all.

[Silverx2]

HoDOR.

And your argument might have a little more weight if you addressed how the Elder Brother knew all he did about Sandor, how they were able to coax the untameable Stranger to the island, why the Elder Brother did not just say, "Yes," when Brienne asked if Sandor Clegane was dead, but instead said, "He is at peace."

But maybe you're right. Maybe GRRM just introduced a mystery, giant, limping gravedigger who liked dogs for no reason at all.

he found sandor alive, Sandor asked for the gift of mercy. but the elder brother said he couldnt give it. he also says he tried to treat his wounds. all during this time maybe sandor was confessing his sins during his final moments..

How did they get stranger back to the island? the same way they brought sandors body back. one and the same. im sure if sandors body was put on the horse the horse would be able to be led.

and A is right next to O on my keyboard.

[alguien]

he found sandor alive, Sandor asked for the gift of mercy. but the elder brother said he couldnt give it. he also says he tried to treat his wounds. all during this time maybe sandor was confessing his sins during his final moments..

Right, because that's totally in keeping with Sandor's character. The guy who was angry and dying of fever and talking about skinning Arya alive all of a sudden decided to bear his soul and relate his entire life's story to a man who was refusing to grant him the gift of mercy. And managed to do so in a few minutes time.

How did they get stranger back to the island? the same way they brought sandors body back. one and the same. im sure if sandors body was put on the horse the horse would be able to be led.

Do you know anything about riding horses? I only know a little, but this doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Lord O' Bones]

Do you know anything about riding horses? I only know a little, but this doesn't make sense to me at all.

No it does not. But SilverX2 is a stubborn fellow. Even my attempts to illustrate the silliness of comparing ASoIaF to MFing Dragonlance went unnoticed. Expect more of the same here.

[Errant Bard]

im sure if sandors body was put on the horse the horse would be able to be led.

Extremely unlikely considering a warhorse would have to be trained to prevent other people from seizing his reins while the owner is riding. How do you get Sandor's body on it in the first place, anyway?

[cybroleach]

Extremely unlikely considering a warhorse would have to be trained to prevent other people from seizing his reins while the owner is riding. How do you get Sandor's body on it in the first place, anyway?

Please people this horse isn't magical. I don't care how unruely it is a few men are more then enough to take it back to their island and lock it in a cage. This whole arguement is silly to use a horse as evidence as if it would be unmanageable without it's rider.

[cybroleach]

double post.

[Lord O' Bones]

Please people this horse isn't magical. I don't care how unruely it is a few men are more then enough to take it back to their island and lock it in a cage. This whole arguement is silly to use a horse as evidence as if it would be unmanageable without it's rider.

Someone has only ridden a horse at the county fair.

[Rakka]

Whoa. Even I know more about horses than that. If an animal 10 times your weight decides it won't obey you, there's precious little you can do about it. Especially when it's trained to bite, kick, rear and trample you.

[Silverx2]

Right, because that's totally in keeping with Sandor's character. The guy who was angry and dying of fever and talking about skinning Arya alive all of a sudden decided to bear his soul and relate his entire life's story to a man who was refusing to grant him the gift of mercy. And managed to do so in a few minutes time.

You mean like when he was walking sansa to his room and out of nowhere he tells her how his faced got burned and how he wants to kill his brother?

Yeah there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that sandor would tell a priest as he lay dying, possibly after injesting wine the elder brother had the same thing he told sansa while he was a little tipsy.

and no i'm not a huge Horse buff, but id wager its PLAUSIBLE that the elder brother tossed sandors body(either he was dead, or mostly in which case he would have gotten up himself) and then been led by the reigns. but of course this is impossible right, there is no way that horse would let someone lead it while its rider was on top of it. we will just assume the elder brother grabbed a knocked out wounded mostly dead sandor, tossed him over his shoulder and carried him the entire way to the silent island, at which point he healed him, and then sandor went out and found stranger right where he left him despite a wolf pact rumored to be in the hundreds hunting in the area, and sandor decided to say, "you know what fuck it, i'm just going to dig graves for a while."

[alguien]

You mean like when he was walking sansa to his room and out of nowhere he tells her how his faced got burned and how he wants to kill his brother?

Yeah there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that sandor would tell a priest as he lay dying, possibly after injesting wine the elder brother had the same thing he told sansa while he was a little tipsy.

Faulty comparison FTW! So... now a girl who he rode with for months and held in contempt/loved equals some man he's never met before? Wow. :rolleyes:

You seriously think he told Sansa his story "out of nowhere"? That makes zero sense. The fact that Gregor riding in the tourney and killing someone, him being drunk, and his view on knighthood during a tourney didn't weigh on him that whole time? That wasn't out of nowhere at all. He specifically told Sansa "I've seen the way you looked at my face." and then "you're like one of those trained birds"

If you really think that his reveal to Sansa equals telling his whole life story to a complete stranger (who refused him mercy) is the same, we should probably stop now. To say nothing of the huge implausibility of being able to convey all that as he was dying.

and no i'm not a huge Horse buff, but id wager its PLAUSIBLE that the elder brother tossed sandors body(either he was dead, or mostly in which case he would have gotten up himself) and then been led by the reigns. but of course this is impossible right, there is no way that horse would let someone lead it while its rider was on top of it. we will just assume the elder brother grabbed a knocked out wounded mostly dead sandor, tossed him over his shoulder and carried him the entire way to the silent island, at which point he healed him, and then sandor went out and found stranger right where he left him despite a wolf pact rumored to be in the hundreds hunting in the area, and sandor decided to say, "you know what fuck it, i'm just going to dig graves for a while."

No you're not a horse buff. And certainly not one who remembers what GRRM said about warhorses or Stranger in particular. Or much one for logic either. Digging graves is actually a uniquely perfect chore to give to someone like the Hound if he was trying to atone for his past life.

[KingSnow]

If he is alive, it would be interesting to see Sandor up against the wights. Beings killed only by fire against a warrior who hates fire. Could be how he gets over his pyrofear. If he is alive that is...

[MightilyOats]

He's almost assuredly digging a grave for every single person he's killed.

[sixwings]

I don't think Sandor can possibly be done.

I think he will return to kill unGregor.

I somehow remember a statement of him saying that he can't die until he's killed his brother or something to that effect.

[TrueMetis]

Please people this horse isn't magical. I don't care how unruely it is a few men are more then enough to take it back to their island and lock it in a cage. This whole arguement is silly to use a horse as evidence as if it would be unmanageable without it's rider.

I've only been around horses a few times but if a horse doesn't want to do something than it sure as hell isn't going to do it. It doesn't matter how many people you've got, especially if it's a warhorse. That and it's been stated many times that the only person who can make Stranger do anything is Sandor.