How much do you really hold it against Americans that only speak English?

[Eponine]

I had hoped that my French would improve a lot when I was in France, but the woman I was staying with wanted to speak English all the time to improve her English. And she needed it more than I did, since she was an office assistant who regularly had to make international calls. The official language at the lab where I was working was also English.

Almost all of my French usage ended up being about ordering food, buying stuff, and traveling.

I can learn to read a language fairly quickly, but I am not good at being able to listen and process all the words in a conversation as they go by. It seemed like the French students were the opposite way- almost all of them were pretty good English speakers and we could make ourselves understood to one another in English conversation, but their level of writing was incomprehensible. I edited some papers being submitted to an international journal, and there were sentences like- Building supply ventilation power mechanical have pressure.

For those of you who learned English as a second language, did you or do you have situations to use it regularly, or any type of English speaking community? Do you write better or speak better? If I started posting on a French-speaking message board, I think it would still only minimally help my ability to understand spoken conversations.

When I was 10, a man at my church offered to teach me Korean. It was rote memorization, and I quit after half a year (I hadn't been enthusiastic to begin with). One thing I'd realized was that I had absolutely no interest in being part of any sort of Korean speaking community and that there was no one that I knew to regularly speak to in Korean, so I felt it would be a waste of time to learn a language that I didn't want to use. I'm still glad that I quit.

[kiko]

First of all, I do not think he is an asshole for mentioning it. I was just making a point. Why is his or her state not worthy of mention? Simply because it is not the national government of his country? Who the hell really cares? To become offended when someone mentions that they are from "Texas" is nitpicky to the point of absurdity. To chalk it up to american cultural imperialism is also ridiculous. What happens if you meet someone from Scotland, or Northern Ireland? Would you get pissed off when they don't say that they are from the United Kingdom?

Seriously, if you guys are getting offended at something like this - then I struggle to understand how you make it through this cruel and offensive life.

It's not offensive. It's just odd. For most occasions I would assume that countries are just things that are separated by lines on a map. Do we really care how a country like the USA or Brazil works? Not as long as we dont have any contact with it or are interested in more than our own small world. And dont forget that for every Texas is at least one Dakota. If someone tells me he is From Bismarck, North Dakota, I probably wonder where in Gelsenkirchen is this dakota thing.

The culture imperialism is implied when you assume that the other one knows what you are saying and implying.

Hmm...silly example: If I talk with Scott about how great i think that the USA is a continent spanning country, and that I wish that Europe could be more like that after he introduced himself as Scot, from South Carolina...well you know how that would go over. ;)

And ask me about from part of the UK the next time they send 4 different teams to international sports events. Again ;)

Of course it is all a mood point, because most US-Americans introduce themselves as from Canada anyway :P

[S John]

This actually annoyed me at the first Worldcon I attended. American badges said 'city, state' while anyone's badges from another country said 'city, country'. I found some other Canadians at a party and we all wrote our provinces on the badges. It wasnt really offensive, just struck me as odd that the USA had states while the rest of the world only got countries. We have provinces too!

I think its only that the state is an important geographic identifier in the U.S., not that anyone is ignoring the fact that other countries also have states and provinces.

Most Americans strongly identify with thier home or adopted state. Some would even argue that it is more relevant than national identity, especially considering the great American tradition of hating the federal government. I don't know how true that is for states/regions/provinces in other countries, could be similar in other places. I just know that it is true of the USA.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

To be fair. The same is true for Hesse, or most of the other German states. Most of them were actual independend (more or less) until as late as 1957. It is a bit odd that people assume that the others know or even want to know the internal workings of their home country. It's completely harmless, and Americans do it all the time, so its only natural for them. But it does sound as if they not only expect the others to speak their language, but also the knowledge about the inner structure of their country. Has a slight taste of cultur imperialism. Nothing wrong with 'I'm from Florida, USA' though.

I think I just invented a rule. Introduce yourself like you would write a location on an envelope. This secures safe delivery without confusion.

In the States when people ask you where you are from, you frequently have to start at the state-level, especially if you come from a town so small that even your own state does not necessarily know about you. So when you go to another country and people ask, it has already become an involuntary action to say "I'm from North Carolina."

[kiko]

I think its only that the state is an important geographic identifier in the U.S., not that anyone is ignoring the fact that other countries also have states and provinces.

Most Americans strongly identify with thier home or adopted state. Some would even argue that it is more relevant than national identity, especially considering the great American tradition of hating the federal government. I don't know how true that is for states/regions/provinces in other countries, could be similar in other places. I just know that it is true of the USA.

Spain comes to mind. The southern German states. The United Kingdom. The former Yugoslavia, obviously. I think its probably a rather universal sentiment.

[Fenryng]

Speaking for myself, when we went to Worldcon this year in the city of Montreal in Quebec Province, Canada, I was looking forward to trying to speak french. My mother was a french teacher, I took five years of it in school, and I still cannot speak it worth a damn, although I can read it better.

I did find that by listening to the other people who were speaking fluent french, I was both surprised and happy to realize that I was able to pick up quite a bit very quickly.

For better or for worse, every time except once, when I did speak french, they switched to english anyway. I suspect my accent gave them a clue.

When I was in Ireland, I found myself trying to pick up the accents of the people that I heard; to limited effect.

My german is limited to whatever phrases are used in WWII comic books, ironically enough.

But, if I ever do go to a non-english speaking country, the absolute minimum that I think I should do is try to get some of the most basic phrases down, so I can at least start a conversation without being rude. PLEASE and THANK YOU are mandatory, and still do take people a long way, fortunately.

[angie]

I remember when we were stationed in Germany I was required to take German in the school I attended on base. Unfortunately I was too young and there for too brief a period to have retained anything more than a few words and phrases. But I think it was an excellent idea.

Spanish, on the other hand, I can read and understand pretty well. I can speak it well enough to get my meaning across, but I'm not confident in my speaking ability, so I generally hesitate to use it.

[mashiara]

For those of you who learned English as a second language, did you or do you have situations to use it regularly, or any type of English speaking community? Do you write better or speak better? If I started posting on a French-speaking message board, I think it would still only minimally help my ability to understand spoken conversations.

Until 8 years ago I rarely used my English, except to read a lot of foreign books and to listen for hours to CNN International. I could write excellently and I had a huge vocabulary but I had very few chances to speak the language -and don't get me started on my accent. Then I met dalThor and I had to actually start speaking English. For the past 4 and a half years since we got married it's the language we speak at home every day so there are times when I use more English than Greek and I don't even have to think about it, I'm totally comfortable with it. Still, every time I have to meet someone new from abroad, or every time we travel to the States, I go through the same cycle of fear that I won't be able to understand them, or they won't be able to understand me. It hasn't happened yet, even though I had a hard time with Zollo's accent at first. :P

[S John]

Of course it is all a mood point, because most US-Americans introduce themselves as from Canada anyway :P

I feel the need to address this seperately.

This is such a cop-out... I hate that Americans do this. As a favor to me, please feel free to punch me in the face if I ever do.

My fellow Americans: How about making a good impression and helping to improve our reputation abroad instead of wussing out and hiding behind the Maple Leaf? I thought we were a people with some fucking balls! When you pretend to be Canadian abroad the fucking Canadians get credit for your politeness! As if they need to be any more popular! Everyone already loves them!

OK sure, if youre in Iran or something, might be a good idea to not be so blatant about your citizenship... but if you're backpacking around Europe.... don't be a weenie. No need to sew Old Glory on to your backpack, but no need to hide your country of origin. Anyone who treats you with scorn becuase of that alone is deserving of contempt and your tourist dollars are better spent elsewhere.

[Aemon Stark]

Learning (and retaining) languages is one of the hardest things around, so I can't really blame anyone for travelling to a non-English speaking country and attempting to get by in English - a few customary phrases is really a must, though. My German skills were pretty horrible throughout most of my stay in Austria this summer, which I found more embarrassing than anything else. Fortunately I'm very good with numbers and lots of basic vocabulary and by the end I could order food without much trouble and even buy things at the pharmacy. Still used English, mostly, not least because that's what everyone else did.

My French comprehension remains pretty good, but my oral expression skills have atrophied over the last few years due to lack of use. One day I hope to recover them, but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe I'll make the effort, as I'll be in Gatineau for a bit next week and Quebec City in the second weekend in January (incidentally, if you're going anywhere in Canada to try speaking French, Montreal and New Brunswick are not the places to do it - they *will* respond in English).

[zollo]

Mash - my accent is awesome I'll have you know :P

As to languages - as Eponine stated - it is all about immersion or at least a high level of daily / regular exposure, otherwise there is little point in trying to full on master a language. Just going somewhere for a holiday / business trip / other - just make sure you show some respect by at least attempting to get a grasp of the (very) basic. People will appreciate it - in fact it is often a conversation starter.

It can be a little annoying when "everyone" abroad wants to speak English but hey... how is that different from you trying to speak their language? I am not put off anymore when someone immediately answers my inquiry in their language with English - I'll switch to English when needed and will continue using the basics in that conversation and future conversations - after all it is fun.

I think there is little difference in my grasp of my mother tongue (Dutch) and English, with Swedish hot on their heels in 2nd place - all three fluent. I have been exposed to the former two for such a long period of time it really makes little odds (32 vs 22 years - starting English classes in primary school). English can be funny sometimes in terms of pronunciation - the rules aren't that consistent and as every situation has about 391 different words describing the exact same thing one is bound to encounter words difficult to pronounce. I use English on a daily basis (living in the UK and all that), including writing reports, meetings with clients and statutory bodies etc. in the context of an ecological consultancy.

I used to live in Sweden and picked that language up real quick - in some ways it is rather far removed from Dutch and in others less so. That will have been part of why I picked it up relatively easily - the other part was being forced to speak Swedish for the purpose of establishing my career there. Speaking and reading Swedish is still very easy, writing takes me quite a bit of time as I have never had to do massive assignments. Still - understanding of articles up to and including academic level is easy enough. Nearly 3 years later little of that has changed, though I take a few days to really get into speaking it again.

My German isn't so great anymore - for the very reason as outlined above - lack of exposure. I can still read it pretty well - it starts to become harder at an academic level as I haven't expanded my German vocabulary in some years - and I have little trouble understanding Germans talking to me. Speaking it myself always takes some getting back into and then it is certainly not perfect either - I have mostly forgotten about the grammar. My writing has never developed very far - never had to beyond highschool. If I ever do end up in a German context again I will definitely have a proper headstart but there'd have to be some proper polishing going on.

Also, for the curious, in chronological order: Pannerden, Gelderland; Kristianstad, Skåne and Edinburgh, Midlothian.

[Jaerv]

I approve. Learning the language of Marx and Friedrich Ebert is a worthy task

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I appreciate your attempt at popularizing an important social democrat! However, he's not exactly Goethe you know...

[Jacen]

Just tip really well. Money makes you friends the world over, no matter what language you speak.

[Mad Monkey]

My fellow Americans: How about making a good impression and helping to improve our reputation abroad instead of wussing out and hiding behind the Maple Leaf?

See, the thing about bigots is that they don't actually care about you. They don't want to see you, and they won't see you as long as they have their precious stereotype to keep their brains from being overtaxed.

[The Stranger]

Americans should be better about learning languages. Its a national embarrassment.

I think "national embarrassment" is hyperbolic crap, if from nowhere else than a pedagogical standpoint: if someone is living in a part of the country where they're never exposed to other languages, it is ridiculous that teachers still try to impose foreign languages at the public school level, at the very least--without the ability to speak the language in some kind of naturalistic way, it's like encouraging children to take an interest in math as a hobby. so in this regard, presumably Bismarck North Dakota is also a national embarrassment.

This would apply to the vast majority of other languages US students are offered during their years when instruction in a foreign language is readily available: aesthetics aside, how are you going to convince most kids that there is a tangible benefit to their lives which stems from learning Japanese or German? It's not a situation where you can tell a European kid "study French hard so you don't look like an idiot when you take the train to Paris next month." For our schools the only blandishment we can offer is usually "study so you can go on the summer abroad program for six weeks than come back to the US for the indefinite future." how is it embarrassing that most kids won't have a burning desire for polyglossy inspired in them as a result of such half-hearted crap?

Spanish is a different story, however, at least on the west coast. I think Texas, the corners states, and at least California and Oregon should have mandatory Spanish instruction from a very elementary level to a very high level. the odds of bumping into a Spanish speaking community in any of these areas is almost certainly higher than bumping into a Francophone community in British Columbia, yet the Canadian attempt at compulsory bilingualism seems like a functional approach which some regions of the US should really follow.

[makotohanabi]

I feel the need to address this seperately.

This is such a cop-out... I hate that Americans do this. As a favor to me, please feel free to punch me in the face if I ever do.

My fellow Americans: How about making a good impression and helping to improve our reputation abroad instead of wussing out and hiding behind the Maple Leaf? I thought we were a people with some fucking balls! When you pretend to be Canadian abroad the fucking Canadians get credit for your politeness! As if they need to be any more popular! Everyone already loves them!

When I travel I don't advertise my Americanness mainly because it makes you a target for pickpockets and thieves. Spent a week in Paris 5 years ago and a few days in London before that. My old accent cropped up (lived in England as a kid) and people assumed I'm from the UK. I did my best to speak French and not to mangle the language too much, people were very helpful. At a flea market I bought some pins using French, English, and Japanese.

It's really funny that I've been told I'm too polite to be an American, but when I'm in the US people are shocked that I speak English because apparently I'm too brown to be American. Also get lectures from Hispanic mommy types for not speaking Spanish. Been trying to practice Spanish more often, if nothing else to piss off the xenophobic nutjobs in my area.

[Jaerv]

What bothers me sometimes is that some native English speakers (not only Americans) do not bother to switch to a more standard version of English but stick to their local idiom when talking to me.

I never would torment a foreigner with my Bavarian dialect, I would always switch to Hochdeutsch the moment I realize that I am speaking to a foreigner. But some native English speakers seem to be either not able or not willing to use a more foreigner-friendly version of English.

In the southern states of the US for example I hardly understood anything. I tried and tried by simply could not figure out what people were telling me . Very frustrating… :(

[The Stranger]

My fellow Americans: How about making a good impression and helping to improve our reputation abroad instead of wussing out and hiding behind the Maple Leaf? I thought we were a people with some fucking balls! When you pretend to be Canadian abroad the fucking Canadians get credit for your politeness! As if they need to be any more popular! Everyone already loves them!

I never pretend to be anything other than American. With the exception of a market i visited in northern Afghanistan. but in slightly less murderous places, U-S-A! U-S-A!

and Jaerv: I'm not sure if many English speakers I know are aware of how thick their dialects might be. I have a fairly neutral American dialect, but as part of our whole no-national-language crap, I don't think we impress on some groups how friggin' thick their accents are...as long as they're white.

[Jacen]

One more thing, in America our foreign language courses are offered way too LATE in a child's life to be as effective.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

What bothers me sometimes is that some native English speakers (not only Americans) do not bother to switch to a more standard version of English but stick to their local idiom when talking to me.

I never would torment a foreigner with my Bavarian dialect, I would always switch to Hochdeutsch the moment I realize that I am speaking to a foreigner. But some native English speakers seem to be either not able or not willing to use a more foreigner-friendly version of English.

In the southern states of the US for example I hardly understood anything. I tried and tried by simply could not figure out what people were telling me . Very frustrating… :(

The problem is that there is no "High American" dialect much less a "High English" dialect that all English-speakers are taught or even expected to know.