Let's have that conversation about kids

[Mlle. Zabzie]

We (males) have biological clocks?

:stunned:

Yes. In fact. He kept saying how he didn't want to be an "old dad." For the record, he wanted to start trying on our honeymoon. Our marriage wouldn't have made it if we had. Actually, it's fairly common among my friends - the man in the relationship is pushing for more kids, faster. Heh. Good thing none of us is a shrinking violet.

I'm actually not sure what an au pair would cost (live-in help is cheaper, generally, because you are providing room and board). We affirmatively DID NOT want someone living with us full time. (I regret that from time to time now that the husband person is travelling so much, but not really). I can give you excellent data as to what a full-time nanny would cost in the greater Tri-State Area though. In general, nannies get $12-25/hour (ranging from 8-12 hours) Mon-Fri. Where you fall in the range depends on whether you pay on or off the books, how many kids you have, and the experience level of your nanny. Day care is significantly cheaper but a lot less flexible in terms of pick up and drop off.

I would consult a counsellor. Friends of the husband person recently decided to separate over this very issue - she wanted kids, he had said he did, but changed his mind.

Kids are SUPER expensive. Like for real.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

This is my major concern also. And he's great with kids. Really great. Watching him with his nieces is aborable. He would be a really great Dad. Honestly, were it not for this concern, I don't think I'd even be considering it.

Forgetting the whole him resenting you angle for a moment, is it possible you might resent yourself at some point for being the reason he never became a father? I mean, most of us want to see our spouses be successful and fulfilled. It sounds like he may be the kind of guy for whom kids may be a big part of him being fulfilled as to who he can be. Maybe you'll look at him down the road and realize that, in some sense, you held him back from being the great father you see when he's with his neices.

I'm not sure how to explain it, but being a dad is really a core part of who I am, and I wouldn't be the same person if I wasn't. So I guess I wonder more about you regretting in the future than him resenting you for it.

[Fez]

au pair Fez, au pair

Ah yes, that's right. I knew it was French, I didn't know it was two words.

[Galactus]

Wait until you're ready, or at least you feel you really want a kid.

OTOH, some people just grow into the parent-role. My brother and his GF got their first child unplanned and probably much earlier than expected, but my brother pretty much turned into a "Dad" overnight. Really startling transformation.

Of course, we all figured he'd be good with kids, but still, it's amazing how some people adjust.

And others, of course, don't.

[Guest Raids]

Yes; it's called "divorce".

Ok, that's a bit flippant, but really, there is no middle ground. I would strongly suggest seeing a psychologist who is also a licensed marriage counselor, so that you can really, truly determine what you want (individually), and then work together as a couple and see if he will go with it, if that means "no kids".

No, I know. You're right. I think I have some memories of you talking about this before. I don't think my husband is likely to make the same choice as Darling.

Wouldn't it totally suck to get divorced over something like this when there is nothing else wrong with the marriage, though? I mean, how do you even do that? Stay married until he's 40 and then let him off the hook to go meet someone else and procreate?

...physically do the whole body-wrecking, hormonal thing for 9 months. Which is a SIGNIFICANT toll not to be taken lightly, even if you're not as vain as I am :)

Seriously. I'm having a hard enough time with aging, forget pregnancy. I, however, also have two friends that look better - in bikinis, no less - than they actually did before they had kids, but they are a few years younger than me. Makes a person insanely jealous though, doesn't it? I doubt that's common.

This is a stupid question, but is it that he wants to mold a child in his own image; in other words, is it that he wants to raise a child and such? Or does he just want to see the product of both of your genetic material?

For all the right reasons - he just really wants to be a Dad, thinks the focus on something outside of yourself to that degree makes you a better, more developed person, thinks it's just part of what considers to be a meaningful life, etc.

[Lady Cheesevillage]

No, I know. You're right. I think I have some memories of you talking about this before. I don't think my husband is likely to make the same choice as Darling.

Wouldn't it totally suck to get divorced over something like this when there is nothing else wrong with the marriage, though? I mean, how do you even do that? Stay married until he's 40 and then let him off the hook to go meet someone else and procreate?

Even if married folks were to divorce to set one party free to reproduce, there's nothing that says that is guaranteed to happen. The party wanting a child might never find another suitable partner or may well find that s/he has fertility issues and cannot conceive anyway.

What happens if you agree to have a baby and you find that you cannot? Finding the answer to that question, as a couple, is what bought my husband and I to our fairly relaxed place about the whole question. Even though he wants kids, he would not want to put me through fertility treatments (and for various reasons unique to us, adoption isn't really an option). And he's pretty well convinced he'd rather have me childless than anyone else with a kid. And I'm not 100% convinced I don't want a kid, so I'm willing to toss the dice. And that dice is landing on no-kids so far.

[smegma]

Eh, every woman's body responds differently to pregnancy. I gained like 17 pounds and didn't get a single stretch mark. My brother's first wife gained 70 pounds and couldn't wear shoes.

I know what it is though - you don't want to go without beer for nine months. :cheers:

[Guest Raids]

What happens if you agree to have a baby and you find that you cannot? Finding the answer to that question, as a couple, is what bought my husband and I to our fairly relaxed place about the whole question.

He says that's fine and he would not have any problem staying together childless under those circumstances. He does not want to adopt.

Is it fair to want him to get a fertility test before we get any further down this road? I mean, aren't they fairly easy and straightforward?

[Datepalm]

No. Just no. Its not even a consideragtion of losing free time or income - more of a deep, sheer terror. I've known since I was maybe six that I don't want to have children, and i've never budged an iota from that. I'm kind of shocked by the fact most (possibly even all. my position is considered a lot more...almost taboo in RL than in this thread) women i've always known really do. This one wants a boy and girl, that one wants at least three, etc, and I used to seriously think they were kidding, but they're not. (Israel is still more natalistic than Europe/US in the end, I guess.)

[Guest Raids]

I never wanted to have kids from about the same age as you, Datepalm, also. Never played with dolls or anything like that, although I did play with Barbie. She had a pink suit and pink a corvette and would drive back and forth from her law office to her Barbie mansion.

Seriously.

[Balefont]

Wouldn't it totally suck to get divorced over something like this when there is nothing else wrong with the marriage, though?

For all the right reasons - he just really wants to be a Dad, thinks the focus on something outside of yourself to that degree makes you a better, more developed person, thinks it's just part of what considers to be a meaningful life, etc.

Oh Raids, if this second quote is the heart of it, divorce makes a lot of sense in the case where one wants and the other doesn't. Relationships - being founded on common interests and goals - well, this looks to be pretty important to him. It sounds like he's really explored his desire to eventually be a dad.

I agree with others that counseling could be very helpful. I think you really need to think long and hard as to why you don't want children. It could be a big part of your hesitation is because of your relationship with you mother. On the other hand, I truly understand a woman's lack of desire to have a child.

So, a question: Before you decided to get married, did you really only think the kid angle through by telling yourself, "I don't want kids now but I'm sure I'll want kids later"? Or did you honestly feel like you were going to have kids in the future and then just "grew out of it"?

[Kalbear]

Wouldn't it totally suck to get divorced over something like this when there is nothing else wrong with the marriage, though? I mean, how do you even do that? Stay married until he's 40 and then let him off the hook to go meet someone else and procreate?

Why would it suck?

Would it suck to find someone you're really in love with and find out that they're devoutly jewish and won't marry a non-jew? Or to marry someone who loved mountains and wanted to live in the mountains, and you hate them? Or someone who desperately likes having cats and they marry someone who is deathly allergic to them?

Some things are simply dealbreakers. It's hard to get compromise on a binary solution. Either one person gives in or you don't.

That being said, compromise is often not bad. And in your case, it sounds very much like you're not super against the notion of kids, just scared of it. And that's fine, but that's very different from someone who very much does not want kids and isn't going to budge.

For the record I thought I didn't want kids either, but I'm pretty happy that I have them now. They are everything I mentioned and more above. But they're also awesome.

[Galactus]

For the record, I don't want kids. (Not that it's particularly likely in the near or distant future, cosidering my social issues, but still) not because I don't *want* to but because I think I'd be absolutely, completely and utterly incapable of being a good parent.

And no, this isn't your standard "young person scared" I can barely take care of myself, how could I possibly take care of a child knowing how much work it would take?

And dumping it on a future SO without taking my share of the burden would feel horribly, horribly wrong.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I think whats important is that you realise that the decision should come entirely from you yourself, you can use research and other people's opinion as an aid but ultimately the decision should rest with you. Don't let one person's experience with kids colour you whether positive or negative, since its an incredibly subjective existence.

I think I'd want kids (I'd go with two since I'm a big believer of the benefit of having siblings growing up, though I totally understand why folks favour single child families), but my mind certainly ain't made up and the woman involved would play a huge part.

Raising a family is in my opinion fucking scary. But I also imagine it to be one of the most rewarding things we can do in this life.

[Guest Raids]

So, a question: Before you decided to get married, did you really only think the kid angle through by telling yourself, "I don't want kids now but I'm sure I'll want kids later"? Or did you honestly feel like you were going to have kids in the future and then "grow out of it"?

At the time we got married, he was about 75% in the "yes kids" column, not 100%, and I was about 75% in the "no kids" column, which is pretty much where I am still.

I am much less adamantly no kids than I was when I was 25 or 26. So I took the fact that I seemed to be less anti-kids as a sign that there was a chance that I would eventually come around to be somewhat pro-kids.

We logged so many hours talking about it before we got married and again, lately, but instead of getting closer to the middle like it seemed we were going to when we got married, we've entrenched a little further apart.

All conversations have been remarkably adult and civil and everything, so I'm not sure that a counselor would really necessarily help, but I guess you kind of have to do everything you can, right?

[Mack Kilimaro]

Isn't it entirely possible that you won't like your kids? My Mom was pretty clear about not liking me overly much after all. Is this perhaps more rare than I think it is?

Don't let your crazy mom be the reason you don't want to have kids.

[Guest Raids]

Why would it suck?

Would it suck to find someone you're really in love with and find out that they're devoutly jewish and won't marry a non-jew? Or to marry someone who loved mountains and wanted to live in the mountains, and you hate them? Or someone who desperately likes having cats and they marry someone who is deathly allergic to them?

Okay, okay, I see your point.

FTR, I am terribly allergic to cats, and husband has two very, very fluffy cats. I take Claritin daily, we keep them locked out of the bedroom, but I still occasionally wake up at 2am due to a horrific allergy attack.

ETA: Mack, my Mom did offer to come live by me and be my primary source of child care after she retires, if I want. :stunned: It was actually a really sweet thing to say, but yikes.

[QuietColours]

One thing to try and identify is exactly why you don't want kids. There can be some middle ground if the reason you don't want kids isn't simply that you don't want children in your life in your house. If the idea of kids is okay, but the idea of being pregnant or having to deal with a baby is what you really don't want, there can be adoption. If you don't want the 18+ year commitment, you can look into acting as foster parents for temporary living situations. If he just wants to have a major impact in a child's life, there are some very involved mentoring situations. If he really wants to have a child genetically related to him to bring up and you don't want kids in your life at all, those are mutually exclusive things in one family and a good time to seek counseling to see how you both can work through it and make the best decisions for you.

Before we got married, both husband and I thought we wanted children. When he first admitted he had realized that he wasn't sure he wanted kids at all after we were married, I felt really betrayed--it had been something we had talked about specifically before making that final commitment, and it felt like he was going back on a major promise. This was despite the fact I was already kind of on the fence myself. But I have some doubts about wanting kids too; I really don't know if I can be or want to be that selfless. Luckily we're still on the young side and have about five years before it really needs to be something we consider closely. We've talked about it a lot and have decided we have some goals that we know we need to accomplish before we even consider kids: he needs to finish grad school and get started on a career, I need to refocus and find a career I like. A sense of where we might be living in the future would be helpful. And we need to have someplace to put both a kid and someplace to put the books/musical instruments that take up the entire second bedroom. We've also talked about adopting--he's more opposed to/scared of the idea of a baby than of a toddler/child/teenager and would definitely be willing to consider adoption, and I'm kind of scared of the idea of pregnancy, especially after watching my sister and cousin both go through pretty scary pregnancies. It's taken a lot of talking to get to the point where we both know why we feel we do and don't want kids, and given our time frame we've decided its something we think we can work with as a couple. That's really what it comes down to--can you talk it through, and can you make a joint decision on it without someone feeling resentment over it? It's not a personal failing if you can't (it is not wrong to really want to have kids, nor is it wrong to really not want to have kids), but it is something that would be difficult for a relationship to survive. And it really something that a counselor could help a lot with; it's a really hard issue.

[Kalbear]

[Don't let your crazy mom be the reason you don't want to have kids.

I'm going to totally disagree with that. No matter what your intentions, what your thoughts, what your desires are - when you parent you will default to acting exactly like your parents, especially in times of crisis or stress. It sucks - and it especially sucks when you hate that aspect of your parents or really don't want to emulate them - but you'll find yourself yelling about something or other and realize HOLY FUCK I AM POSSESSED BY MY PARENT'S BRAIN.

It's natural, and for the most part it won't affect the large chunk of things if you're really conscientious about changing - but it is there.

[Starkess]

Why would it suck?

Would it suck to find someone you're really in love with and find out that they're devoutly jewish and won't marry a non-jew? Or to marry someone who loved mountains and wanted to live in the mountains, and you hate them? Or someone who desperately likes having cats and they marry someone who is deathly allergic to them?

That's my marriage. And all in all, I don't miss cats that much. :)