Bad news for season 2? [Book Spoilers]

[raj34]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/12/game-of-thrones-author-talks/

There's a new interview with GRRM and apparently the Battle of the Blackwater is going to get the "Tyrion bonked on the head" treatment..

On writing an episode of season two: “It’s very tough because we don’t have the budget to do the battle in the book. We just don’t…”

Does thie mean they're going to scale it back or just skip it like the whispering wood, green fork, and battle of the camps?

[A'shaman]

I'm 99% sure scale it back. It is hugely important and surely Beinoff and Weiss are aware of the disappointment in terms of lack of battles in Season One. I think we will see some of it, but not as grand as epic as we would like of course. There will be a lot of smoke I imagine. We mightn't see any ships crashing into ships or wildfire explosions, but I think we might see Garlan in Renly's armor cutting down a few knights or something like that...enough to be aware it's a bloody battle.

I hope at least.

[Mattyp]

It is not sounding good is it? I didn't mind Tyrion being bonked on head as that battle wasn't a 'big deal' to be in the novel, and it washed over me pretty quickly without making much of an impression.

I wonder if it'll mean Tyrion will keep his nose?

[Jack Sparrow]

I wonder if it'll mean Tyrion will keep his nose?

I don't think it "means" anything in regards to Tyrion's nose. They can have battles happening offscreen, and still have him lose a nose, or show the battle and still have him keep the nose. I think he'll keep the nose because they don't want a noseless protagonist, and don't want to deal with the special effects every time he's onscreen for however long the series goes on.

[Tyrionsnose]

It is not sounding good is it? I didn't mind Tyrion being bonked on head as that battle wasn't a 'big deal' to be in the novel, and it washed over me pretty quickly without making much of an impression.

I wonder if it'll mean Tyrion will keep his nose?

Sadly I think he will keep his nose. It's not really that crucial to the story. I loved that scene though, with Pod saving him and Mandon Moore sinking in the river. I think the chain and wildfire are crucial, there has to be some way to do it. Otherwise I think the scope of Tyrion's brilliant planning will be lost. A major part of why people like him and sympathize with him. He saves King's Landing and is still despised, despite his master plan.

[John W]

The lack of major battle scenes doesn't really bother me.

If I had to choose between a major battle scene and the scene where Syrio takes down the Lannister guards with a wooden practice sword I choose the latter.

[raj34]

Just to clarify: I'm not one of those fans who insists on Braveheart style epic clashes, but I would be seriously disappointed if they don't show anything. You figure with the current state of CG and a little creativity, D&D could come up with a truncated version of the Blackwater that would look pretty cool.

[Noir Dove]

The lack of major battle scenes doesn't really bother me.

If I had to choose between a major battle scene and the scene where Syrio takes down the Lannister guards with a wooden practice sword I choose the latter.

Well said.

[Bronn Stone]

What I don't want is a situation like BSG and New Caprica where they blew half the budget for the season on the big battle and had to put out hours of cheap looking stuff to make up for it. I'm sure they'll give us as much as they can afford, and I'll accept their decision.

[Été]

The whole battle is fantastic in the books and would have been really spectacular onscreen. The fact they can't show it all makes me a sad panda, but one has to be realistic. I just hope they find a way of doing it justice with the resources available. :)

[mr. peasant]

What I don't want is a situation like BSG and New Caprica where they blew half the budget for the season on the big battle and had to put out hours of cheap looking stuff to make up for it. I'm sure they'll give us as much as they can afford, and I'll accept their decision.

Agreed. Consistency is the name of the game.

Just to clarify: I'm not one of those fans who insists on Braveheart style epic clashes, but I would be seriously disappointed if they don't show anything. You figure with the current state of CG and a little creativity, D&D could come up with a truncated version of the Blackwater that would look pretty cool.

While CG is readily available and affordable, good CG is still very expensive. Thus far, with regards to its production values, the show seems to be going with the adage of 'if you can't do it well, don't do it at all'. Say what you may about the quality of the writing, the technical aspects such as cinematography, props, etc have been quite good.

[The Anti-Targ]

Well I'm thinking cut back battle. You can distance shot CGI ships getting wildfired for reasonable cost, and you can do close quarters fight scenes (especially from Tyrion's perspective) with not that much CGI nor too many extras. The entire battle can be told from Tyrion's perspective and that would keep costs down. Firstly most of what he sees if fromt he walls of KL: distance shots mostly of ships. They could also do the map in the war room thing moving red, yellow and green wooden blocks around the map showing who's where and where all the fighting is happening.

Or Ser Mandon Moore could bonk Tyrion on the head 2 minutes into the battle.

[Vikingkingq]

Well I'm thinking cut back battle. You can distance shot CGI ships getting wildfired for reasonable cost, and you can do close quarters fight scenes (especially from Tyrion's perspective) with not that much CGI nor too many extras. The entire battle can be told from Tyrion's perspective and that would keep costs down. Firstly most of what he sees if fromt he walls of KL: distance shots mostly of ships. They could also do the map in the war room thing moving red, yellow and green wooden blocks around the map showing who's where and where all the fighting is happening.

Or Ser Mandon Moore could bonk Tyrion on the head 2 minutes into the battle.

I was thinking, what would you actually need to show to get the battle right?

- the chain going up: you could do that with a close-up at the shoreline, and then a wide CGI shot.

- the wildfire: you'd need a couple shots of ballistas firing, a CGI wide shot of the fleets burning, and maybe one scene where the fireships go up.

- Davos: I think you can do a lot here by focusing on Davos' reaction shots, and wouldn't need more than a handful of ships if you keep the shots tight and then use the CGI for wide shots.

- The land-battle: the Tyrion scenes could be done on small-scale, with tight shots and 10-20 men. I think you can limit the crowd scenes to just 2-3, maybe just Stannis' men crossing, then the arrival of Tywin and the ghost of Renly.

Overall, you could probably get away with less than 10 real ships and less than 5 CGI shots if you intercut them.

The trickier thing is probably the armies - but given that we know the extras call for season 2 was greatly increased, the numbers are already there on hand.

I think we'll get some kind of battle, but I also think there's better ways to cut it down than the HBO Rome tent/banner/tent technique.

[Mattyp]

I can't imagine that the whole scene would need to be cut for budget constraints. There are always ways around things.

The whole scene would completely lose it's heart and soul without us seeing Davos watch his sons burn, and without seeing Tyrion battle bravely only to be betrayed.

Does anybody remember Sharpe? (another Sean Bean show). That was a show from our side of the pond and had loads of boats and warring ships and probably had a fraction of the budget GOT is getting.

[nerd123]

Does anyone know any television series that has had big, epic battle scenes? I think maybe some network mini-series have had them (e.g. Band of Brothers, with $125 mil budget), but I can't think of any regular television series that have had them; I recall them being noticeably absent from Rome. I think it's actually much cheaper to do space battles because you're basically just editing in cartoons along with filmed footage. Battle scenes that use live action with CGI are going to be much harder and more expensive, I think, because it's harder to animate against filmed footage.

If big battles are something no regular TV series has ever done, I think it's really unrealistic to expect GOT to be the first.

[Werthead]

Does anyone know any television series that has had big, epic battle scenes? I think maybe some network mini-series have had them (e.g. Band of Brothers, with $125 mil budget), but I can't think of any regular television series that have had them; I recall them being noticeably absent from Rome. I think it's actually much cheaper to do space battles because you're basically just editing in cartoons along with filmed footage. Battle scenes that use live action with CGI are going to be much harder and more expensive, I think, because it's harder to animate against filmed footage.

If big battles are something no regular TV series has ever done, I think it's really unrealistic to expect GOT to be the first.

Merlin has done a couple which are reasonable (CGI long-shots mixed with close-ups of like 4 extras fighting). Rome also had Philippi in Season 2 which people seem to largely forget. Some of the shots are a bit obviously CGI, but they do a reasonable job of selling the scale of the engagement.

Sharpe and Hornblower had some pretty good battle scenes given the limitations of their budget (the latter including some fairly elaborate sea battles). BSG also had a lot of shots of CGI Cylon warriors engaging in battle as well as the space combat sequences. The BSG finale was pretty impressive, showing what they achieved on a very small amount of money with tons of battle shots involving numerous CGI Cylons.

[HokieStone]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2011/07/12/game-of-thrones-author-talks/

There's a new interview with GRRM and apparently the Battle of the Blackwater is going to get the "Tyrion bonked on the head" treatment..

Interesting interview overall. Apparently Mago (who got killed in Season 1) has an important role still to play in the books. I'm re-reading the books right now, just started Storm of Swords, and I don't remember him at all. I suspect they can replace him with a random bloodrider. Also talks about ripping out Marillion's tongue in season 1, and how that didn't happen in the books and may have an affect on future seasons.

But yeah, sounds like the Battle of Blackwater will get short shrift. And I highly doubt Tyrion will lose his nose - probably just get a scar down the side of his face or something - much easier for makeup to create.

[HouseLark]

What I don't want is a situation like BSG and New Caprica where they blew half the budget for the season on the big battle and had to put out hours of cheap looking stuff to make up for it. I'm sure they'll give us as much as they can afford, and I'll accept their decision.

Disagree. The first four episodes of Season Three of BSG are the best television I have ever seen. The budget was well spent and I've advocated from the start that GoT does the same. Most of GoT takes place in rooms anyway, there isn't really a lot of action. BSG unfortunately had the problem of having to exist in a space environment so could never escape the need to create sets (unless anyone knows of a spare few spaceships that they could have used...). With good location scouting, GoT can have impressive sets without the need to spend heavily on creating them. You could stad a couple of actors on a wall in Dubrovnik and it will look expensive and appropriate. BSG couldn't do that. So yeah, I'd spend big on a set-piece that could define the season. They don't have Sean Bean's salary to pay anymore so that frees up some cash :)

As it happens, I don't think the Blackwater need be too expensive. You only need the essentials: ships trapped in the river, wildfire, Renly's shade and Tyrion attacked by Moore. Most of it can take place in a haze of smoke from the wildfire if necessary. I don't know, they can just get creative, tight focus on characters or whatever. Look at the opening to Saving Private Ryan - that focussed on individuals with lots of noise and smoke and dirt. The scale of the battle needs to be conveyed, it doesn't need to be shown as such.

[Reposado]

It's not like we ever see Tywin and crew riding through Stannis in the book. Most of the key scenes are inside the walls, Sandor refusing to go back out, Joffery on the parapets. Sansa and Cersei in the keep. There is one sortie outside the walls. There's a ton of smoke, it would require 10-20 extras. If they cut out the Kings Landing side, there is really no excuse.

The water stuff could be more expensive, but they could always cut back, make it happen faster. Make the chain come up faster and Davos go under quicker, than focus on the KL stuff.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Sadly I think he will keep his nose. It's not really that crucial to the story.

I reckon so. That way they can cut the scene where he gets injured, and not have to pay for tonnes of makeup every time he appears. Or maybe he could lose an eye - eyepatches are easy to do.

It's not like we ever see Tywin and crew riding through Stannis in the book. Most of the key scenes are inside the walls, Sandor refusing to go back out, Joffery on the parapets. Sansa and Cersei in the keep.

These are the scenes I really want to see. The battles I can take or leave.