"Targaryens are Fireproof" and Other Common Misconceptions

[Daemon Dagoghlor]

Tyrion is the valonqar: Jaime is also younger than Cersei.

[King Aemon I]

Tyrion is the valonqar: Jaime is also younger than Cersei.

Jaime is younger than Cersei.. Cersei came to this world before him, so if both were male, Cersei would be the heir..

[three-eyed monkey]

Tyrion would have noted the violet eyes of Septa Lemore if she had them. That is the one thing that always pops up when someone, Cat and Barristan, thinks of Ashara.

Yeah, it does seem suspicous that Tyrion missed that detail, he usually describes peoples eye colour iirc, be they violet or any other colour. I just put this down to GRRM not wanting it to be too obvious but I might be wrong. Any thoughts on why YG thinks of her as Lady Lemore? I don't mean to turn this into a SL=AD thread but nor would I like to see the theory regarded as a common misconception just yet.

[lostcause]

Jaime is younger than Cersei.. Cersei came to this world before him, so if both were male, Cersei would be the heir..

That is what he meant. Someone saying Tyrion is the definitive Valonqar, would be wrong. jaime fits the criteria (well unless you count the fact that maggy said "hands" and not "hand"

[Buried Treasure]

'Tis a good idea, and a good OP. My only concern is that too many of us that get frustrated by these common misconceptions are going to read this thread, and not enough of the people that will make posts restating these misconceptions as facts!

I do have to take issue with one of the listed misconceptions though:

There are a few common misconceptions making their way 'round the forums. I thought it might be helpful to list them all in one place, along with evidence that disproves the erroneous claim. Please add your suggestions below, accompanied by (at least) one piece of evidence to the contrary.

• Even if R+L=J Jon Snow is still a bastard. The dialogue between Ned Stark and the Kingsguard seems to indicate otherwise. Tower of Joy
  Also, Targaryens have been involved in polygamous marriage in the past, allowing for a legitimate marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Targaryen Family Tree
  

I really feel this entry should be modified; the misconception should be 'even if R+L=J Jon Snow has to still be a bastard because Rhaegar was already married' for which the contrary evidence is the aforementioned Targ polygamy.

That Rhaegar and Lyanna actually were married remains a theory, and one does not have to accept that theory to accept R+L=J. The ToJ quote given here can reasonably be interpreted in alternative ways, which means that it does not offer proof that a marriage took place or that Jon is legitimate.

The actual misconception I most often see regarding this matter on the R+L=J threads is that Ned asked the KG why they had stayed at the ToJ. He did not; the line is 'I though you might have sailed with him' which would mean going to Dragonstone at the same time as Viserys and Willem, not following him at a later time.

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree that the above needs to be amended, and was on my to do list. When I wrote that bit it seems as if my brain was besieged by confirmation bias. Upon rereading, I realized that the only thing I had proven was that I could construct a sloppy and insufficient argument at a moments notice. ;)

I think I will use your suggestion and thank you for it in the meantime.

[J. Stargaryen]

Syrio Forel is not Jaqen H'ghar

We know from the gaoler of the Red Keep, Rennifer Longwaters, that Ned Stark allowed Yoren to take his pick of the dungeons, and that that was the time Rorge, Biter and Jaqen were handed over. Since Syrio's fight against Meryn Trant occurred around the time of Ned's imprisonment, this means Jaqen had been in the Black cells during Arya's dancing lessons, and was in Yoren's custody when the supposed switch should have taken place.

I mean to add this, but can I get some help with the chapters; e.g., Ned talks to Yoren in chapter X. Ned gets arrested in chapter Y, etc.

[J. Stargaryen]

I've done some updating, but there is still more to do. Alas, it is late.

[The Summer Islander]

What about this one; there seems to be a lot of debate about Lyanna's age and when she died and when Rhaegar actually "consummated" their relationship

The wiki says she was born in 268 AL

The wiki says she died in 283 AL

The tourney at Harrenhal was in 281 AL

So lets do the math.......

@ the tourney of Harrenhal she is 12 or about to turn 13 if her name day has not passed yet. 281-268=13

@ her death she is either 14 or 15 depending again if her name day has passed 283-268=15

If we are going by this^ , then Rhaegar was super duper wrong she was not a woman grown she was under 16 when he sexed her up.

The wiki says she was 16 when she died, it also says that in text she is 16; GoT Chapter 4 Ned......

"....Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before the was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father ahd been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule. Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

(***note*** that the wiki says Jon Snow was born in 284 AL. That means Lyanna can not be his mother if this is true, but more than likely one these is a typo. if not he could have been born on the last day of the year and she died on the first day of a new year) nevermind this then folks, my wiki info is now wrong last time I checked the dates were not correct

[Dr. Pepper]

(***note*** that the wiki says Jon Snow was born in 284 AL. That means Lyanna can not be his mother if this is true, but more than likely one these is a typo. if not he could have been born on the last day of the year and she died on the first day of a new year)

Jon is supposed to be younger than Robb, at least according to Ned who told the world that he fathered a bastard after he married Cat. Robb was born in 283. We don't have any notion of months or seasons to go by, but it could have been at the very end of 283 and so Ned just said that Jon was born at the very beginning of 284 to cover the lie. I support the theory that Jon is actually a bit older than Robb, but in order to maintain the lie it would only work if Jon were presented as a bit younger than him, perhaps by only a month. If Jon was sickly early on, or if Lyanna delivered him early, or if traveling from the south to the north was difficult, it wouldn't be surprising if Jon was smaller than the norm, at least initially. Ned would be able to fib the age a month or two.

[The Summer Islander]

Jon is supposed to be younger than Robb, at least according to Ned who told the world that he fathered a bastard after he married Cat. Robb was born in 283. We don't have any notion of months or seasons to go by, but it could have been at the very end of 283 and so Ned just said that Jon was born at the very beginning of 284 to cover the lie. I support the theory that Jon is actually a bit older than Robb, but in order to maintain the lie it would only work if Jon were presented as a bit younger than him, perhaps by only a month. If Jon was sickly early on, or if Lyanna delivered him early, or if traveling from the south to the north was difficult, it wouldn't be surprising if Jon was smaller than the norm, at least initially. Ned would be able to fib the age a month or two.

I think Jon is older than Robb too, I also think that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents.

However it would be possible that if Ned were Jon's real father he could be a few weeks, or 2-3 months younger than Robb. Ned could have knocked some lady up on his way south (a few days after his wedding to Cat) and then on his way back he might have stopped back to dip the old Ned wick again, and the lady is like oh no Mr. Lordy Lord when you last left here, you left a lil DNA behind and here are the results, take it with you...... :dunno:

But yes I can see why Ned would lie about things.

[King Aemon I]

First, wiki says Jon was born in 283 :: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow

And as I said before, don't care for AWOIAF, that much.. That is the wiki which shows Stafford Lannister as a son of an older brother of Tytos Lannister.. Then why isn't he the Lord Lannister, right? I don't think Ned and Jon Arryn stayed in Riverrun after the marriage.They wed, they bed, with their host waiting outside.. Then they left for Stony Sept, that is what Cat says too, when Robb comlains of not having Jeyne pregnant, she says Robb were concieved in the first... Then Ned goes to Sept, then Trident, KL, Storm's End and ToJ, when he arrived, it shouldn't have been more than a few hours after Jon's birth.. You do the math..

[The Summer Islander]

:blushing:....seems they fixed it, cause it didn't say that the last time I checked

Lyanna's page

This page was last modified 23:12, 28 August 2012 by A Wiki of Ice and Fire user Donalnig. Based on work by arek, A Wiki of Ice and Fire user Dimadick and others.

Jon's page

This page was last modified 05:46, 15 August 2012 by A Wiki of Ice and Fire user Quigley. Based on work by A Wiki of Ice and Fire users Malaspina_speaking and Lady and Grey Wind and others

[The guy from the Vale]

I mean to add this, but can I get some help with the chapters; e.g., Ned talks to Yoren in chapter X. Ned gets arrested in chapter Y, etc.

The timeline intel comes from AFfC, Jaime III (Talk to Rennifer Longwaters) and of course AGoT: Ned XIV/Arya IV

[The Bastard of Summer]

*bump* for the new guys

[Mladen]

I`ll add three misconceptions about Sansa:

1. Sansa`s testimony killed Mycah

Wrong. Hound and Lannister men were already hunting Mycah by the time Sansa were brought before the King. If you recall the scene in which Sandor says Ned that day wasn`t wholly wasted, that would indicate that Sandor and his men were sent long before Sansa`s testimony before Robert.

2. Sansa is not a warg

As we were told by GRRM himself, all 6 Stark kids are/were wargs. The difference is in development and expression of their power. Bran, Arya and Jon are the ones who have clearly developed warging powers, first through their direwolves, and Bran later on Hodor, and Arya on Braavosi cats. We know there`s a possibility Robb warged Grey wind too. Sansa`s warging powers are in her, it`s only their expression that hasn`t come up yet.

3. Sansa is responsible for Ned`s death

This is really old discussion. Many people believe that Sansa has given Cersei crucial information that had led to her father`s imprisonment and later death. The thing is Cersei has already bought Golden Cloaks, and made arrangements with Littlefinger and Varys. Ned actually told her everything he knew, so Cersei had to act quickly. Sansa told Cersei that her father plans to send girls to Winterfell on the day Ned was arrested. Cersei acted on this information, and imprisoned Ned later that day. But, since Ned thought he had Golden cloaks, it was just the matter of time. Sansa did make Ned`s situation worse because they could blackmail him with her life, but Ned`s imprisonment is on his own foly, Sansa`s naivite and Cersei`s plotting, but his murder is purely on Joffrey, and on LF, if you believe theory. Sansa shares responsability in her father`s imprisonment, but not death.

edit: correcting point 3.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I know it's really obvious to most but a wights = / = white walkers should be at the TOP of the list. :P

[Roadside Rose]

AA and the Prince that was Promised may well be the same person, but the Religions of Westeros video does not establish that this is the case. The video you provided from Martin clearly has him speaking from Melisandre's point of view about what she believes, not from the objective point of view of the author.

As for the quote from the text, all that really tells us is that Aemon and Melisandre share a belief that they are the same figure. We've seen both characters make mistakes. Neither is infallible and people in Martin's world have a habit of being wrong when they confidently make bold assertions about something important.

:agree:

There isn't sufficient evidence to be sure that Azor Ahai and PtwP are the same.

[mrunderhill]

I`ll add three misconceptions about Sansa:

3. Sansa is responsible for Ned`s death

This is really old discussion. Many people believe that Sansa has given Cersei crucial information that had led to her father`s imprisonment and later death. The thing is Cersei has already bought Golden Cloaks, and made arrangements with Littlefinger and Varys. Ned actually told her everything he knew, so Cersei had to act quickly. Sansa told Cersei that her father plans to send girls to Winterfell on the day Ned was arrested. Cersei acted on this information, and imprisoned Ned later that day. But, since Ned thought he had Golden cloaks, it was just the matter of time. Sansa did make Ned`s situation worse because they could blackmail him with her life, but Ned`s imprisonment is on his own foly, and his murder is purely on Joffrey.

Martin disagrees with you on the third one. Sansa may not have been wholly responsible, but she did play a big part in Ned's death. Sansa told Cersei a lot more than just that they planned to leave. She told her about where Arya was, the number of guards, what ship they were taking etc.

[Mladen]

Martin disagrees with you on the third one. Sansa may not have been wholly responsible, but she did play a big part in Ned's death. Sansa told Cersei a lot more than just that they planned to leave. She told her about where Arya was, the number of guards, what ship they were taking etc.

Could you please provide me the quote in which Sansa told Cersei number of guards? And Martin remained ambiguous in both cases, so neither you can say that he totally disagrees with me.