Was leaving Daenerys in Meereen a mistake?

[Lord Freypie]

I think the main reason Dany-Daario story is criticized, is it's hard to understand the attraction she has for Daario. With his descriptions insisting more on his exotic characteristics, like the blue beard, golden teeth, sculptured weapons with nude women, etc..., than on how he can be attractive (I mean for non pimp style fans), and his dialogues hesitating between showing him as a flatterer precious courtier or a wild sellsword with no ethics, Daario isn't served at all by how Martin depicts him. A character like Ygrid is made desirable and sympathetic for the reader before Jon fall in love with her, and same for most other love/sex stories characters. Daario, out of Dany endlessly repeating she desires him, doesn't appear in a way making the reader wants that something happen between them (it may be intended, if he is only there to be a bad choice, or the symbol of some bad teenager girl tendancies Dany has to overcome to become an adult woman).

[SeanF]

If GRRM I using the Hero's journey template, Daenerys is only half way in her arc. Her revelation in the Dothraki Sea is the turning point. She needed a extreme low point before her "revelation", ADWD, was that low point for her. People need to calm down as we have no knowledge of the whole story yet. People detested Theon at the end of CoK, but since we have seen more of his arc, people have softened their stance. Rickon could be and evil vengeful child who rules the North with an iron fist - we don't know the full story yet. Essos was essential for Dany's storyline, particularily if she is the stallion that mounts the world, unites everyone into one nation.

As you say. But while I agree that her epiphany at the end of ADWD will be a turning point, it's quite possible that the lessons which she's internalised "a dragon plants no trees" "fire and blood", will have really bad consequences for the inhabitants of both continents. While it may be fun to read about a female Genghis Khan, you wouldn't want to be in her path.

[GoldenFleece]

If (and a big if), Dany (unlike Robert) realizes she is a "warrior" not a ruler, a general, gathering forces for the future fight against the Others. Don't know if she can overcome the sense of entitlement.

However, I guess she could have a sudden character/maturity growth spurt.

Every King and Queen has a sense of entitlement, that is the nature of monarchy - that you are ordained by god/gods to rule a nation. Even the Starks have a sense of entitlement - they feel entitled to demand loyalty of their bannerman, or else they will kill them. They feel entitled to call themselves King in the North - because they have a claim, a strong one, and if a rival family staked a claim, you would be sure they would destroy them. Feudalism in all it's glory.

[GoldenFleece]

As you say. But while I agree that her epiphany at the end of ADWD will be a turning point, it's quite possible that the lessons which she's internalised "a dragon plants no trees" "fire and blood", will have really bad consequences for the inhabitants of both continents. While it may be fun to read about a female Genghis Khan, you wouldn't want to be in her path.

And yet some of the greatest men that ever live where not "tree planters". Alexander the Great was not a tree planter, and his rule was short, but he changed EVERYTHING in our world, uniting nations from India to Italy. I think you are using those internalisations a bit too literally. I think she realises she has to be ruthless with enemies, if you don't in the game of thrones - you die. In a medieval world you cannot claim a throne while lying on a feather bed. That is why I love these books - they are meant to be fantasy novels, but in a lot parts they are totally anti-fantasy. If you want pure fantasy - Harry Potter may be more suited.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

I think the main reason Dany-Daario story is criticized, is it's hard to understand the attraction she has for Daario. With his descriptions insisting more on his exotic characteristics, like the blue beard, golden teeth, sculptured weapons with nude women, etc..., than on how he can be attractive (I mean for non pimp style fans), and his dialogues hesitating between showing him as a flatterer precious courtier or a wild sellsword with no ethics, Daario isn't served at all by how Martin depicts him. A character like Ygrid is made desirable and sympathetic for the reader before Jon fall in love with her, and same for most other love/sex stories characters. Daario, out of Dany endlessly repeating she desires him, doesn't appear in a way making the reader wants that something happen between them (it may be intended, if he is only there to be a bad choice, or the symbol of some bad teenager girl tendancies Dany has to overcome to become an adult woman).

Daeny doesn't dig Daario because he holds nice speeches. The man has swagger like no other sellsword, and manages to come across as a cool, cheeky guy who isn't afraid of anything yet can be quite the smooth courtier if he wants to. The pimp style doesn't make him attractive - it would look ridiculous on any other guy - but it enhances the image that this guy is cheeky and very confident with women. To the point where "normal" women might perceive it as overbearing. But to impress a queen with Daeny's sense of self-importance, you have to lay it on thick. ;)

Has nothing to do with her being teenage IMHO. The way she goes through the same emotions again and again has to do with her being a teenager (and I found those passages nauseating as well) but the attraction she feels to him is healthy and quite understandable. Attraction isn't a rational thing :D Perhaps GRRM could have done a better way at conveying the thoughts (or rather: pheromone streams) going through Daeny's head but I just fill in the blanks as I read and don't mind.

As for him being a bad choice: Why care? She's the queen, she can take what she wants. Her "husband" is willing to look the other way so why not.

[joluoto]

Mereen was to show that she's not ready to rule. She's a teenage girl who has no idea how to rule a City State, not to mention a Feudal Kingdom. It was meant as a wake- up call to the reader, maybe she isn't the best choice for Westeros at all, no matter what kind of claim she has (and considering the Targaryen line of succession she doesn't even have a claim).

[BreastplateWithNipples]

Well, she lasted considerably longer in Meereen than Ned Stark would have if you'd plopped him into the same situation :D

[SeanF]

And yet some of the greatest men that ever live where not "tree planters". Alexander the Great was not a tree planter, and his rule was short, but he changed EVERYTHING in our world, uniting nations from India to Italy. I think you are using those internalisations a bit too literally. I think she realises she has to be ruthless with enemies, if you don't in the game of thrones - you die. In a medieval world you cannot claim a throne while lying on a feather bed. That is why I love these books - they are meant to be fantasy novels, but in a lot parts they are totally anti-fantasy. If you want pure fantasy - Harry Potter may be more suited.

Again, it's fun to read about Alexander's conquests, but you wouldn't have wanted to live in his path to conquest. Dany may well turn out to be a very successful conqueror, and to be such, you need to be completely ruthless. Sometimes, during her story, she's dreamed of returning to private life in the house with the red door, but that's not an option any more.

[Mikkel]

I think the fact we get so many versions of real life human personalities in this series like in real life is what makes the books unique. if every character is written as perfect or evil then it wouldn't be different then anything else out there and no one would be talking about them or have these forums. I love George's "insight" (if that's the right word) in writing Dany, her infatuation/ love of Daario is so realistic of a GIRL that age.

I'm not saying it isn't realistic, just that it makes her annoying to read about - for me, and apparently many others.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I'm not saying it isn't realistic, just that it makes her annoying to read about - for me, and apparently many others.

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can love or hate who they want. It was just a surprise for me how much some ppl hated her. I don't personally find davos n Brienne chapters a bit boring and want to skip it at times to get to ppl i like so others doing the same is fine with me.

[Chaircat Meow]

I like the Meereen story: I don't find it annoying at all. I would hate it if Dany blazed a trail across the world and the author never made her face the consequences of her ambitions.

This could have been achieved in a smaller number of chapters, I feel. Dany maybe has one or two POVs too many in Dance, like Jon.

[Winter's Breath]

I do think the Meereen story line was necessary, and even though perhaps it could have been better on everyone shortened down a chapter or two, it still needed to be there. And not just for Dany's development, although that plays a huge part. Danny is the stallion who mounts the world. To me, this means that the entire world will somehow get involved with the fight with the others, the battle of ice and fire, not just westeros. Everything from Braavos to Tyrosh to Volantis to Quath is going to raise arms. And this is why Danny needed to stay in Esteros, she needed to get the continent going.

She had to tare apart slavers bay, to get them all into the fight. Volatis city is going to revolt and be hers, while the army and ships are headed towrds Meereen, and will be there shortly. Quath is feeling the ripples of the destruction of the slave trade, and will continuously grow stronger as a presence. The iron fleet has arrived, and cause and epic battle for all those players in meereen, and as some think capture a dragon or two (I really hope not) Danny has now met up with the past and one of the Dathraki leaders she proclaimed to try to kill. I bet she'll follow through with that threat, go to Vas Dothraki and unite all the dothraki people while the old women bow before her like prophesied.

Some other things that are set in motion: Dorn might bring Great Norvos into the fray with their connections, and the iron bank with their westrosi investment will bring bravos into it.

In the end I think Danny will rule all of Easteros. If the fire others from Ashai by the shadow is true, then she will deal with them as westeros deals with the ice others. Or maybe she will just found a second Valaria. But, all in all, I think this is her plotline, not so much Westeros.

Also, one could look at her relationship with Daario as a building block. Her first relationship she had was with her brother, who threatened her and twisted her nipples and abused her. Then she was like 12 with the big Khal Drogo. She eventually got over her trauma from being rapped nightly by him, (plus being in a completely different society of horses and travel might not have been easy) and right when she was starting to enjoy being with him, he dies. Now after being used to Khal Drogo, and losing him after she grew to love him (which might have just been her mind trying to make her rappage acceptable, but it still hurts as much as a loss) she is lusting after a companion, and low and behold, Daario. I doubt shell see him again, because he probably not going to survive his captiveship with the slavers, and so now after that stage she has to move on. It is still prophesied that she will have a baby, so she will find someone. My hope is Jon, although Ageon is a possibility or even someone else. It could even be Joara Mormet, (sorry about my spelling) because after all her death and struggle and hardship she'll want someone to really care for her. I don't know. But perhaps the Daario plot too, serves a purpose.

[Son of a Harpy]

Actually I find Dany stay in Mereen add a lot of depth to both her personnality, the world and how it works.

First it makes Dany the only character feeling the need to learn how to rule a kingdom for the greater good before pushing a claim on the Iron Throne. Which is extremely logical considering she never even ruled a lordship or spent years being member of the council, unlike for example Stannis and Renly. It creates a big difference between Daenerys and unexperienced rulers like Cersei only seeking power for the sake of it (or write her name in history or take revenge against the world). Would Daenerys had moved directly to Westeros (imagining some magical way to make her dragons grow faster) she would have been no more than a Cersei 2.0 or, at best, a Robb (without the excuse of being urged by events into becoming a king), to resume a guaranteed fail. Instead she is learning her trade. And the number of errors she makes, even just ruling one small city, shows how much it was important to do so before being in charge of a 50 times bigger kingdom.

Then all the slavery and peace arcs, describing how a politic inspired by good ideals can end doing making things even worse, is one of the deepest things Martin writes, and makes his world far more realistic than for example Robin Hobb's one (my impression is the whole Ghiscari arc is an answer to The Livership Traders simplistic depiction of slavery as something that just asks for being abolished, as in general ASOIAF is one to "good always win" manicheist fantasy). One of the best passages of the whole serie for me are the ones she has to deliver justice, and thinking about the greater good always end taking decisions that seems completely inhuman in the particular cases she has to judge, showing how much good and wrong are hard to define. Daenerys in Mereen is a permanent political class, and as disturbing it should be in what is showed about the exercise of power. Probably the part of all the books that makes you think the most about real world rulers, history and politics. For me, as annoying some Dany substories may be like her relationship with Daario etc..., her Mereen chapters are one of the most brillant things Martin ever wrote.

Finally there is Esos her stay in Mereen allow to developp, which puts Westeros back into perspective, as one of the many realms of a world most inhabitants don't even care about. And the reactions in Volantis, etc... to show how much something like a promised prince abolishing slavery is far more waited for than just a new king/queen on the iron throne. It also reminds the reader that Dany (imagining she is to fulfill propheties ; or whoever is the chosen) isn't here just to rule Westeros but save that whole world. Dany consideration for Ghiscaris is like Jon consideration for Wildlings, it makes them the few potential rulers who do/will care about humanity as a whole and some kind of greater good. And it's preparing the war with the others in a more meaningful way than rushing to Westeros to bring "fire and blood", like many characters and readers would like Dany to.

You sold me.

[The Mother of The Others]

Lost in the wild, weak and alone, Dany is confronted by Khal Jhaqo and his Dothraki, yet stands before them all confidently. At this point, that only makes sense if something major has snapped in Danaerys. GRRM is also no fool: I think he, above all, knows just how much he tortured his readers by allowing Dany to waste away in Meereen rather than having her travel to Westeros, which only makes sense if there was a purpose to all of it.

Thanks for that. The task now is to make the 'delay chapters' meaningful by showing how they caused her transformation. It took so long because it was a transformation she was trying to avoid. Trying to find another way to greatness. All the things she tried in Meereen didn't work, so by process of elimination, what's left? (This is the lesson taught by the Danny chapters). It was all slipping away, until as a last ditch effort she went back to what works: The blood of the dragon. That's the load bearing member she needs to build her dreams upon, the only thing she can really trust in. She's been trying to prop up her regime with other things and they haven't been bearing the load, and everything's fallen apart. Now, at the last, she's returned to the one thing that built her brand at the start and can be used to build it back up again. Even if it seems like her world is in a shambles, none of that matters, because she's reconnected with the source of greatness. All the rest is replaceable.

The birthing of the dragons may not have been all her doing, but it was no coincidence either. When she saw red and tied Mirri to the pyre, Stormy's instinctual aggression saw her through that magic minefield successfully where other Targs had failed and died. She began thinking and acting like a dragon, which is why the dragons responded to her, and as a side benefit she began acting like a proper conquerer as well, because that's what dragons are. That's when her blood was boiling, anyway. When it cooled, she didn't like herself, didn't want to be associated with that poor man's charred child for example. How horrible. Her psyche ran away from that and didn't want to have to continue down the path of causing horror for people. So the search began for alternate ways to impress people besides charring them. It ended with the realization she can't get to the finish line without doing what has to be done to get there. All aboard! The damage train is leaving the station.

It could be she goes hyper mean. But it could also be she'll hit upon a Jesus style solution of giving to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's. In this case, substituting slavers for ceasars. Whatever form it takes, there's going to be a shakeup now in the East that affects the culture itself, not just the cities. The cities have already taken a huge hit, but it hasn't solved the problem. The slavers still fancy resistance and going back to their way of doing things. This next quake will shake them to their foundations.

[Silent Sparrow]

I'm one of the people who felt like Meereen went on too long, even though the more I read those chapters I realize how important it actually is. I think Dany had to leave Meereen, and leave abruptly, because otherwise she would keep finding reasons to stay and rule and never be able to get out. If Dany stayed in Meereen, her entire storyline would peter out as she got stuck in Meereen.

I think some of the importance of Meereen shows us the Dany isn't ready to rule yet as well as showing the difficulties of ruling a place conquered by violence and blood. The Meereenese nobles wanted her gone and were willing to make her life a living hell to do so. A lot of Dany's problems in Meereen would be the same problems she would end up facing if she just goes to Westeros and conquers with dragons out of the blue. People won't automatically support her like she thinks they will.

For me, the other really important thing we get out of Dany's time in Meereen is an idea of the problems of living with dragons. Dragons require a LOT of meat, and they aren't picky about where they get it. Now, remember the situation in Westeros right now: thanks to the arrival of winter and the war, they are very quickly approaching a famine in the North and the Riverlands. When Dany comes to conquer Westeros, what is she going to feed her dragons?

[PrimeRhaegar]

its because he didn't include the time jump that should have happened but its necessary sadly i mean the dragons do need to be bigger b4 she arrives. I do agree though that i hated read them sigh.

[Laundrybasket]

I agree Ser Creighton and Omar from The Wire.

Without the time jump, Dany needed some time for her dragons to grow to be truly threatening able to ride if she was to have a chance at conquering Westeros and bring allies to her side. So Meereen took much longer than we feel it should have, but it does make sense.

...I also could have done with less Dany swooning over Daario, but oh well.

[Laundrybasket]

I don't See Danny even ending up on the iron throne I imagine westeros will be scattered to the ashes after they're all done killing each other

[KOM]

I think that without knowing what was exactly expected to happen during the "Five year gap" it's hard to judge the idea of Dany in Mereen. If Dany/Mereen was mostly glossed over and compressed, it would probably rankle readers less.

I'm actually ok with the themes that went on in Mereen, power, how rulers relate to the ruled, the respect for existing traditions, imposing values on other groups. I think, in the story of ice and fire, it's worth touching on.

If Dany was on a boat to Westeros at the end of ADWD/AFFC superbook 4, then I think most people would be ok with it. But that's not going to happen until early/middle TWOW I speculate.

[Theralion]

Even if Daenerys abandoned Meereen she would still face the same problems.

1. She needs time to let her dragons mature, they will win her the throne. But when they did, the dragons became unruly and uncontrollable, so she had to lock them up for safety reasons. The valyrians used magic to master their dragons and she doesn't have that, neither does she have any dragon training knowledge at her disposal. If she had control, she could have destroyed the yunkish army and blockade, thus she wouldn't need to make peace.

2. She has no way of safely transporting her army west intact. The land route (demon road) would kill most of her army and her if they did take it. And the hostile city of Mantarys stands in her way. The sea would be swifter but she doesn't have the ships. The quartheen offer would allow her to carry a few hundred.

She could abandon Meereen if it weren't for the dragons and geography.