Anyone want to talk about Sansa?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Many people view Sansa as weak but even in her second chapter there is evidence she is not weak. Here's a quote from the tourney right after Ser Hugh was killed:

"Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrick or her father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloack was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it."

This is not the thought somebody weak or overly emotional. Sansa is a Stark and she has ice in her veins. She was always somebody who will do what she has to. I think LF is in for a world of hurt once Sansa figures out the extent of his role in her family's downfall.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

Very articulately put, and thanks for the warning. I can't say that I actually hate any character, and definitely don't want to start any Internet wars with anyone. I was just looking for some different perspective on her, which everyone has been great with sharing, so thank you much.

thanks! i haven't seen any indication whatsoever that you were trying to say anything bad about sansa so i wouldn't worry,

i don't really hate any characters either, and i happen to both love dany and sansa as characters, but i know that anytime someone tries to argue for any flaws in certain characters, unnecessary fights can ensue - i didn't mean to implicate you at all. but though there are things i would argue as flaws in sansa, as in dany, i also think there are admirable strides. i commend you for creating a "neutral" topic, btw, i think it serves the forum well.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I think if you read the books consecutively it's hard to notice how much Sansa has changed. But if you look at AGOT and AFFC? There seems to be a big difference to me. Sansa is more cynical now (but still has some shred of idealism) and doesn't rely on songs anymore. She can see people for who they are (Littlefinger - which I can't really overstate since one of the most frustrating things in the series is how people constantly underestimate him - and also Lyn Corbray) instead of blindly trusting people based on their social standing. Tze's post about Jon and Sansa linked above is an amazing post and really shows how much Sansa changed; she went from a highborn lady betrothed to the prince to pretending to be a bastard daughter. Sansa also seems to be favoring the old gods more, is done with the south and wants to return home, sees Jon differently ... I could go on and on.

I think she definitely has shown growth but there's still some room for more progression. She has to gain some agency and take a more active role in her own future. I can't wait to see what happens in the next two books (and am praying that there will be a Sansa chapter in the paperback edition of ADWD!) Sansa is going to bring LF down :devil:

As for why I like her? Personally, I admire how despite the trauma and abuse she's been through she isn't broken. I constantly see people criticize her for being weak when I see her as incredibly strong. If I were in her situation I would've had a mental breakdown at some point but Sansa doesn't. She still maintains her dignity and, despite everything, is only becoming kinder. That's not something that could be said for a lot of characters in the series. As much as people say Sansa is the least Stark-like (whatever that even means), she definitely fits with what Ned said about the Starks: "The winters are hard. But the Starks will endure. We always have."

[Florina Laufeyson]

I love this so much!! I needs to be requoted, dammit :D

I've highlighted the part that people imo tend to take issue with Sansa. Yes, she's been beaten, stepped on, threatened, mocked, moved like a pawn, 'dragged through shit and back', so why didn't she do anything? Is it really because she's a 'polite lady' and we are expected to believe (or possibly being force fed that notion against our better judgement) that it's somehow a bad thing.

Well, no.

The word that most often comes to mind when thinking about Sansa is "agency". Sansa's capacity for action and exertion of her inner power and strength is quiet, but it's growing. She is learning, and like Flo, pointed out, she's gonna come out of nowhere and act upon her power, because she was unyielding and defiant.

To me the true heralding of Sansa's return to power is when she builds her Snow Castle. It is both beautiful and cathartic, because she finally feels like she has escaped the clutches of her captors. However it also feels like she's making a to-do list, and before getting around to it, she wonders what it is she truly wants.

That is one of the richest chapters in the book, in terms of foreshadowing, as well as thematic symbolism. There's a thread on it, Dr. Pepper has kindly provided the links. I highly recommend that particular thread if you are new to understanding Sansa (hence you might have to work backwards)

I also agree with butterbumps and Kittykatknits, in their interpretations of Sansa. :)

And while the Snow Castle is my favorite Sansa chapter, the true point of no return, when I knew that I loved her, was when she point blank said to Joffrey "or maybe he'll give me yours"

that's a lot of cheek for a 'naive and polite lady' ;)

When Sweetrobin destroys her snow castle, she puts his doll's head on a spike. Lets not forget that. Sansa must be able to have her own agency and i feel as if she can only do so by taking it back herself. Sansa will realize that she cannot be granted agency. She is coming to this conclusion with her thoughts on Harry the Heir among other things. Littlefinger has had his shithooks in her from the moment she arrived in King's Landing. Trying to take her and use her in his own way. Well guess what, bubby, that shit aint gonna fly for too long. Sansa may get a leak from LF about his hand in Ned's demise. Holy shit, if she finds that out, LF is TOAST.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

on a super, super ridiculously simplistic level, i think sansa has gone through the following progression (i am putting this in terms of mostly sexual agency, but it applies to political agency as well):

1) idealistic, fairytale, somewhat asexual view of love and power - love is puppies and children and happiness and songs and beauty.

2) realizing that men hold a physical and sexual power - men are sexual and physical aggression, and procreation can be a bloody and violent act - men want more (and less) than a "song".

3) one can "redirect" a man's wants through other womanly skills.

4) one can direct men specifically to a woman's own desired outcomes through those same skills.

5) women can successfully wield their own agency by both redirecting and directing a man's (or woman's) agency to their desired outcome.

[Hutch]

I assume (please let me know if I'm wrong) that by "kicking and screaming" you mean that Sansa's character growth is due to the horrible shit she's been through. I actually agree. But that's also true of the other characters that are coming of age. And I don't see why that makes her growth any less valid. Many novels (as well as movies and TV series) have arcs that involve the character growing up after facing great hardship.

Also, I'm glad you were able to open your mind up about Sansa. Some people are very unfair to her. That said, maybe she's just not your cup of tea. Nothing wrong with that.

So true! Sansa is painfully ordinary. That's actually my favorite thing about her, and ironically what makes her such an original character. Fantasy novels are full of characters like Jon and Arya. Characters like Sansa? Not so much.

I'm glad my "kicking and screaming" comment wasn't misconstrued, as before this thread I did acknowledge that she's had a rough go of it.

After this thread I have much more to think about. For example your comment about her character being unique to fantasy genres is intriguing to me in that I don't read much fantasy. If that's the case then it makes her character that much more interesting in breaking the mold of a fantasy character. *cue "the more you know" music*

[The Duke]

Sansa managed to go from probably the character I despised the most in AGoT (she betrayed THE NED!!!), to by the end of AFfC as one of my favorite characters. Top 5 at least. He putting the Lyn Corbray bit together is one of my favorite moments in the entire series.

[Newstar]

She didn't have a chapter in ADWD. GRRM has not released a gift chapter or done a reading of a Sansa chapter in TWOW. That makes me think her story is about to get very interesting.

Agreed. Nor have we had any current news of the Vale--rumours, mutterings, etc.--from secondhand sources in ADWD. I suspect something crazy is going down in Sansa's chapter brought forward from ADWD. That doesn't necessarily mean that Sansa will have poisoned LF or whatever in the interim.

I do think that Sansa fans grossly overestimate her talents and potential, though, thus the nonsense like the Sansa is totes going to be an awesome Queen in the North (with Sandor as her sworn shield/lover, natch)/Sansa for the Iron Throne/Sansa is totes Westeros Elizabeth I stuff that pops up every now and then. I mean, Sansa could just turn around and suddenly be amazing, just like Dany had a magical dragon dream in AGOT early on in her marriage and turned into a badass literally overnight, but right now, I don't see it.

Not to mention there's a Sansa chapter coming up in TWOW that some fans might find "controversial." That suggests to me that while we're hoping her storyline might go one direction (Sansa doing something amazing), her storyline may well zig where we expect it to zag (something happening to Sansa or Sansa doing something that's going to piss fans off). Something to bear in mind.

I also agree that she has a role to play surely. I also thought the same about Robb and Cat though, and we all know how that turned out.

This is a good point. Sansa does have a role to play, but it's possible that 1) she'll die once she has played it or 2) her death is the role she plays (like Quentyn Martell), because her death will have X, Y, and Z consequences. Saying "she has a role to play" is no guarantee of survival; it just buys her some time. If we lose the Vale POV (because Sansa leaves), then I'd start to worry about her survival prospects.

[Master Forel's Fro]

I think Sansa point for being in the series is to be the eyes and ears in certain places, not every pov character needs to do or be something. If she's alive in the end shell marry some important lord (if there are any left) and have lots of babies.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

why she is such a likable character

Because - from my point of view- Sansa is the character whose personality most reminds me of contemporary teenagers, my friends, or myself, the other female characters, I personally, seem to me farther apart.

[bpsae325]

Can''t wait for Zunni to chime in. I'm a mild Sansa fun, and I am waiting for the kung fu moment the earlier poster was referring to.

[Old Ida]

As for why I like her? Personally, I admire how despite the trauma and abuse she's been through she isn't broken. I constantly see people criticize her for being weak when I see her as incredibly strong. If I were in her situation I would've had a mental breakdown at some point but Sansa doesn't. She still maintains her dignity and, despite everything, is only becoming kinder. That's not something that could be said for a lot of characters in the series. As much as people say Sansa is the least Stark-like (whatever that even means), she definitely fits with what Ned said about the Starks: "The winters are hard. But the Starks will endure. We always have."

That is why I like her too and I believe she will endure. That is in the Starks bones!

[mb2518]

A lot of people got mad at Sansa because she didn't take up for Arya, when she knew full well that she was in the right. That wasn't very Stark-like. The rest of her family saw Joffrey for what he was, why didn't she? However, she has learned much since AGOT. I do think she'll bring about the end of LF, though it may not be for his hand in Ned's death.

[Winter's Knight]

A lot of people got mad at Sansa because she didn't take up for Arya, when she knew full well that she was in the right. That wasn't very Stark-like. The rest of her family saw Joffrey for what he was, why didn't she? However, she has learned much since AGOT. I do think she'll bring about the end of LF, though it may not be for his hand in Ned's death.

"By rest of the family" you mean Arya of course, because Ned sure didn't. If he had, he'd have sent her back to WF.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

So based on another thread from earlier today I've noticed that a lot of people feel like Sansa has had a lot of personal growth, and is considered by many to be one of the better characters in regards to progression. I'll admit that that I've never been a fan of her, but generally like the Starks, and I really want to like her. Someone suggested I look into the Sansa reread threads, which I did, for further insight. After skimming through them (no way I can read every single response to all 7 of those threads) I must admit that I was being a bit unfair to her character. Here are my updated thoughts after taking some things into account, and I'm just curious if anyone can elaborate further on her character to help change my mind a little more.

Edit: this is my first start of a topic and somehow posted it before I was done. Sorry

Anyway I definitely wasn't taking into account her age, gentle upbringing, etc. in regards to her naivety. I also realize that she has been making small steps towards growing out of her hopefulness of a fairy tale life. That being said, I still don't see the "growth" that everyone is talking about.

In my opinion she has just been forced/dragged kicking and screaming towards adulthood and progression in general.

I agree that her character has potential to become very interesting, depending on how her arc continues, but I just don't see what the fuss is about so far especially considering how GRRM is about throwing curve balls in his storylines/characterization.

Anyway, not trying to bash her or anything, just looking to have a little back and forth to help me understand why she is such a likable character. Thanks, and again I apologize for posting half a topic early. Hopefully I'll get the hang of this shit soon.

I agree I don't have a huge love for sansa. Her reading is slow but people are right she has huge potential for growth. She so far has had the most solid growth its been tedious growth but what can I expect from a character's Pov that is just at the stage of setting up the next level of " the game of thrones". But yeah I'm very excited for sansa in the next book. Actually I'm excited for everyone. Need the winds of winter

[mb2518]

Robb didn't care for him in WF, nor did Jon. Ned was going to make another match for her at one point. He said something like "I'll find someone more suited for you". If I remember right, they were going to be sent back to WF and then Sansa said the "golden hair" thing that made Ned realize something.

[David Selig]

"By rest of the family" you mean Arya of course, because Ned sure didn't. If he had, he'd have sent her back to WF.

Robert told Ned Joff was really messed up, Ned didn't do anything.

[Winter's Knight]

Robb didn't care for him in WF, nor did Jon. Ned was going to make another match for her at one point. He said something like "I'll find someone more suited for you". If I remember right, they were going to be sent back to WF and then Sansa said the "golden hair" thing that made Ned realize something.

Ned doesn't decide to send the girls home until after Jaime attacked him and Robert deserted him. (Note to self: work that into Nedbert).

[grand old duke of stark]

I think Sansa point for being in the series is to be the eyes and ears in certain places, not every pov character needs to do or be something. If she's alive in the end shell marry some important lord (if there are any left) and have lots of babies.

IMO, that would be a waste of an intriguing character arc. Sansa's supporters (full disclosure: I am at best neutral about Sansa) have been drawn to her development over time into a bright young women with a new sense of agency. I think they're right about that--Sansa is getting very interesting and recent Sansa POVs have hinted at some important actions she will perform or at least be involved in. If she's gone through so misery much over five books, and readers have gone through so much along with her, what is the point if GRRM is only going to use her as an obersever in other people's stories and then turn her into a babymaker? She certainly has gone from pawn to ... someone with real possiblities, even a player. Surely GRRM is too good a writer to pull the rug out from under this character he is still bringing to fruition.

[EstEst]

Because - from my point of view- Sansa is the character whose personality most reminds me of contemporary teenagers, my friends, or myself, the other female characters, I personally, seem to me farther apart.

Hmm, I wouldn't agree that Sansa's is an ordinary character, or otherwise you're lucky to have a lot of them around. She is extraordinary, a very strong personality, as well as Arya and Catelyn. Don't be fooled by Sansa's feminine exterior, she has a determination of a bulldog and she'll eventually get what is hers, by force or by cunning. She reminds me of Lady Olenna, with her intelligence and manipulative abilities, but without lust for downright power as in the case of Margery.