The Commentator

It’s like two troublemakers getting in trouble at school. They don’t get into as much trouble on their own. Together they cause chaos. That’s the Starks and the Baratheons. I will happily criticize Robert if it’s later shown that he was planning to oppose the Targaryens and he was a willing part of the southron conspiracy. Till then he’s just an ineffective king who was not a good choice for the job.  
 

The direwolf was a warning telling the Starks to stay in the north. They didn’t listen and look what happened. Worse is the trouble they caused for the people in the south. 
 

On 4/1/2024 at 2:02 AM, CamiloRP said:

That's not what I'm talking about tho. The people in favor of executing the slavers are Daario, who's an evil motherfucker, and the Shavepate, whom at the very least we shoulnd't trust; while Jon gets an approving Nod from Stannis.

An approval from Stannis is not a sign of anything good. The execution was unjust and Jon made a tyrant of himself.  The execution of the slavers who murdered the children was completely appropriate for the situation because what they did was an act of war against Dany and against the children. The masters used bad tactics to support a bad cause. 

Peace with the Others require human sacrifice. As in giving them babies they can turn. Greensers demand human sacrifice but for their trees to feed on.  
 

The Starks were giving to both side before the Conquest. They were serving the WW and the GS. The Conquest brought the power of the dragons and that was a huge deterrent to the WW and the GS. The dragons kept the WW and GS from getting their revenge when humans stopped giving.  

Reckon is going to be mental. A beast in many ways like his direwolf.  

It’s good if Arya serves as a sad, even cautionary, example of what happens to those who seek and commit murderous revenge. Catelyn’s is a punishment more severe than death. Her soul dies with each Frey she murders. With Arya, it’s her sanity and humanity that dies with each murder she committed.  

Jon Snow got killed because he was a fool who committed treason. Jon sucked so bad at his job, at governing even a tiny outfit like the watch. Bowen Marsh is a loyal, devoted man of the night’s watch and even he was desperate enough to terminate Jon’s reign. Daenerys is so much better at governing and leading.

On 2/5/2024 at 11:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

What about forcing someone to marry your daughter when he is on his way to lift the siege of your liege lord?

 

The Tullys and the Starks were known rebels. Criminals. 

There is a ceremonial side to the role. Age lends prestige rather than hurts in this capacity. A lot of the men likely die before reaching a ripe age. The Kingsguardship is an Order requiring total commitment. They serve until nothing of life remains. It is hard to accept given the modern relationship between employee and employer but it was a different time in a distant world. The Khal’s blood riders do the same. Dany’s bloodriders serve and protect her  but to a level her husband never enjoyed. 

On 1/29/2024 at 11:47 AM, John Suburbs said:

It's a very fine line between "earned" and "extorted."

But it's a mistake to say that an entire House is good or bad, meritocratic or autocratic. The Freys bulldozed lesser houses to become their vassals, just like everyone else. They impose taxes and tariffs on goods generated or passing through their lands, just like everyone else. They made war on their rivals, just like everyone else. And they had good lords and bad lords, just like everyone else.

Charging passers a toll for the use of a bridge which they invested in is not extortion. It is fair.

I would be accepting of this outcome. A handicap like Willas can overcome physical limitations. He seems the understanding and forgiving kind unlike Jon. He would be fine as the consort. 

One of the worst sin. The FM violate the body of the departed. 

On 5/31/2023 at 11:04 AM, Aerodimas said:

The last book was going to be named a time for wolves, i doubt that all the starks will die.

 

Bran will live under the tree. I think Sansa, Jon, and Arya will die. Rickon will join the wildlings. Winterfell will burn down. 

Most of the powerful houses got there through war and theft. The most prominent example are the Greyjoys. They murder and they steal. The Starks murdered a lot of families to get to where they could dominate the North. The Freys saw an opportunity given their location and built their precious bridge. They built the family wealth through hard work and smart investments.  The earned their wealth. Walder was not above sending sons to the citadel to earn their way into the service of another household. He’s a much better father and head of the family when you put him beside Randyll Tarly, Hoster Tully, and Richard Stark.
 

They are not known to provoke and start fights. It is the Starks who deserve most of the blame for the red wedding. Walder broke custom but it was mostly for his family’s survival. His family will pay but they don’t deserve to lose their wealth and none of them deserve to lose their lives. Petyr and Merrett are already murdered. No more of them need to die and become victims of the Starks in retaliation for the red wedding.  It was a time of war. Robb broke his oaths. Tywin speaking for Joffrey laid out the conditions for a pardon. Walder did the prudent thing for his family. It was Cat’s stupidity and Robb’s deplorable conduct that got the Starks killed. 

Well, Arya might escape a deserved punishment if she were run to the other side of the Wall to live with the Wildlings. She can live out her days until the madness fully takes hold.  

On 1/23/2024 at 3:02 PM, maesternewton said:

Let's say, Rhaenyra's 3 sons are trueborn. Somehow, she managed to have legitimate children with Laenor. Due to not having the bastard allegations, Rhaenyra's boys are not given dragon eggs but claim the older dragons like Vermithor and Sliverwing.

She also doesn't have beef with Criston Cole, and he is still her supporter.

She is the perfect heir, spends her time in King's Landing, does royal progresses, basically she is Jaehaerys with teats. When Viserys dies, she is in King's Landing. 

What would the Greens do in this scenario?

Bad calls and perhaps tactical mistakes caused her reign to be brief but that war was easily winnable for Rhaenyra. It wasn’t mistakes at the beginning but bad calls later in the dance that brought her down. Preparations were not the problem. Sticking to the objective, staying consistent, and leaving personal feelings out of the planning would have given her what she wanted. 

On 1/12/2024 at 2:40 AM, astarkchoice said:

Erm

 

You do remmber the dornish have been fighting with similar tactics to the dothraki for centuries right? The westerosi have seen their tactics

On their small sand steeds they have reportedly  recurve bows and swords but also  armour, small shields, spears, a mix of heavy cavalry and various foot too.......they are actualy more like the hun/mongols militarywise than the dothraki 

 

Now the dornish have held their own vs all other westerosi  outside of dorne but.... their horse cavalry  have all those other factors to help them.

 

Drone  is not a powerful kingdom. So the Martells are not going to survive a Dothraki invasion. Yeah, the Dornish men will run for the mountains and hide and pray to their gods for the Dothraki to get bored and leave. But the Dothraki with Dany leading them will not give up. 

On 1/10/2024 at 1:19 PM, Aldarion said:

...unless they run across an actual Westerosi army.

The Westerosi army will run for the nearest castle and hide. Most will die before they can get behind the walls. The Dothraki arrows will send many to their deaths. Westeros is not made up of warriors. While there is a small warrior class of varying skills the majority are unskilled peasants.  

Jon’s vows still holds when he gets revived by the White Walkers. But Jon was never good at sticking to vows before he was killed. Vows, honor, and ethics mean nothing to somebody like Jon. 

The Unsullied will increase their numbers. The ones they will train later are not going to be as good as the originals but more than good enough to fight and humiliate the Westerosi if Dany were to command it. A combined army of Unsullied, Dothraki, Sellswords, and the remainder of Vic’s crew will be unstoppable.  

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

War is hell, in this world as everywhere else. Martin drives home, through the perspectives of Arya, Jaime, and Brienne, just how ghastly the impact of the fighting is on the Smallfolk of Westeros, and through the POVs of Tyrion, Quentyn, Daenerys, just what it entails in the East.

Next to the actions of slavers, the atrocities ordered by Tywin Lannister are perhaps the worst. He sends forth Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat and their reavers to savage the Riverlands. Ser Kevan promises to set the Riverlands ablaze, and  he is as good as his word. In Arya's subsequent chapters, we get to see what this means in practice. Children are murdered, women are raped, civilians are tortured and enslaved. For the Brave Companions, probably the worst of the soldiers employed by Tywin, war is nothing more than an excuse to enact their most depraved fantasies. They are the Westerosi equivalent to Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger. Tywin's record includes drowning women and children, and sacking a city that admitted his army peacefully. Almost certainly, he ordered the murder of Elia and her children.

In the North, Ramsay Bolton violates terms of surrender, in order to flay his captives. He keeps Theon as his plaything to torture him into virtual insanity. In the Riverlands, Walder Frey murders wedding guests and thousands of their soldiers. In the East, the Dothraki behave in similar manner to the chivalry of Westeros. The Ghiscari slaver elite revel in their own cruelty. This is a dark and depraved world.

Yet, atrocity is not one-sided. Jaime and Brienne encounter the tavern girls hanged from trees by Ser Marq Piper, because they lay with lions. Arya is horrified to learn that the men being left to rot in crow cages for their crimes are Karstark men, not Lannisters. Subsequently, she comes to the ruins of a village that was burnt to the ground by her grandfather, during Roberts Rebellion. Roose Bolton, even before he switches sides, is as cruel as any of Tywin's commanders, as he puts women in stocks to be raped, and allows the Brave Companions free rein to terrorise the population, in return for their changing sides. Robb pays the West back in kind for Lannister work.  While I very much doubt if Robb ever gives orders that are as cruel as Tywin's, pillaging, burning, and raiding, on the part of people who have a long list of scores to pay off, is never going to be pleasant.

This is not, however, a universe that completely lacks standards in war. Ser Davos is able to persuade Stannis that sacking Crab Island, due to the defection of its lord, would be an evil and cowardly act. Stannis we learn (and even someone as brutal as Randyll Tarly), gelds rapists among his men. Taking (high-born) prisoners for ransom, rather than killing or mutilating them (although these things happen), is common; Robb Stark executes Lord Karstark and his men for murdering prisoners. Asha Greyjoy is told by the Maester of Deepwood Motte, that she has nothing to fear from surrendering to Stannis, because she has behaved decently towards her prisoners. Even a dullard and a brute like Victarion feels disgust at the sight of his brother tormenting prisoners. Everyone views the Red Wedding with horror and contempt.

It goes without saying that what constitutes a war crime in the modern Western world would not necessarily amount to one in Westeros, but I do think the concept of war crimes does exist. I would suggest these would be:-

Breach of guest-right
Murder of prisoners whose surrender has been accepted by a commander
Torture as a form of recreation
Rape
Sacking a town that has surrendered, on terms.
Violation of the terms of surrender.

What do other readers think?

Oathbreaking is a war crime especially for people in military orders. Abandoning a post is desertion and punishable by death even today. 
 

Gregor and his crew are guilty of war crimes. But so are Robb Stark and his soldiers.  Those who sacked King’s Landing during the rebellion are too. The Darklins may have had grievances but taking their king prisoner and subjecting him to torture was probably the worst offense. 

Robb Stark was killed by Roose Bolton. The Freys were complicit but they didn’t do the actual killing. Catelyn killed Jinglebells and that should be the more serious sin that took place that day. 

The most dangerous threat to the Bolton family are the White Walkers when Bran or Jon lets them pass through the Wall for a crazy act of desperation to get revenge for the Starks. Hosteen Frey and his boys will get the same thing coming to Roose and Ramsay. Wayman is more of a monster than Roose though and he too will get punished but not by the Starks. Ramsay is the worst and he will get what’s coming. But you know Jon Snow also deserves punishment for betraying the Watch and murdering his sworn brother in Janos Slynt.  I will vote for him to get cremated with Drogon’s fire.  Walda is a Frey who knows how the Game is played but the White Walkers and Jon Snow are not the playing kind. The White Walkers want something on her side of the Wall and Walda might figure it out to save herself. It will just be her bad luck if Jon, Arya, or Bran gets to her. Those Starks want blood and won’t spare Walda. Best hope for Walda to get herself back to the twins and far from the Stark pack. 

The Freys will get through this wounded wolf-assassin child. The Lord of the Crossing produced his big family through many marriages and made it extinction proof. Arya is a lunatic who will try to kill every Frey but she will not get even half of them. One of the Frey might get lucky and take Arya down. 

The Freys are in danger like every other in Westeros. Not more and not less. But maybe they have family in the free cities and elsewhere who will survive the Others. 

Victarion’s frame of reference is the sea means a large body of water. His ignorance shows up but it doesn’t mean he’s slow witted. Not necessarily. 

On 12/1/2023 at 8:15 PM, SaffronLady said:

That, but mostly fire and blood.

Fire brings the warmth needed for life. “Blood is the life.” The Targaryens are good. Their role is to oppose the Starks who bring death, destruction and the horrors of winter. Nature is kept in balance. Life and death. Day and night. Good and evil.