Springwatch

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But they did do that.  That's the basis of Lancel's claim to be Lord of Darry. 

Tyrion was ordered to marry Sansa, on a similar theory.

But no-one can force them to be consistent I guess. 

Exactly. Harrenhal, Winterfell, Darry. And little Ermesande's place too. There's no need for consistency, the Lannisters are just grabbing whatever's in their reach, because they are those shameless, hypocritical, greedy people. They did give Darry to Lancel, because unlike Winterfell, it's in their power. (There's a quote somewhere if you want it.)

It was Kevan (not a leading Lannister) who arranged the marriage to Ami, so Lancel can pay lip service to Darry claims. Kevan knows Lancel is a bit weak.

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Now that Lancel and Ami are no longer married, they can do an about-face and argue someone else is the true heir.  But the hypocrisy will be noticed.  And the Freys and any smallfolk who felt any loyalty to House Darry (among others) will be offended.

But they never said Ami was heir! Genna thinks her boy has a better claim. Little Walder has Darry blood and has the advantage of being male. We don't know how many other Darry relatives are out there. Ami wasn't chosen because of any superior claim, but for being an unmarried female who could be given to Lancel.

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

I guess her parents figured a hedge knight was a step up from three grooms. 

Absolutely! But if she was in line for Darry, the tactical Frey thing to do would be to marry her to a cousin. Keep it in the family.

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Does he actually believe in magic? Or was he just that desperate concerning Sam? Would that ritual have worked if Randyl waited until later, when the strength of magic in the world had improved?

He just likes blood - when he was skinning a deer, he went in up to the elbows. He'd probably like bathing in blood himself.

Maybe a long shot, but I think it worked. Sam somehow kept going beyond that hideous rejection from his father, and then being the useless fat guy in a militarised penal colony in the north. It's not the usual sort of courage, but it's something.

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel isn't preoccupied with Ami's sins, only his own.  Jaime is not preoccupied with Ami's sins, only with Lannister control of her castle.  Strongboar is not too preoccupied with her past sins either.

I don't see Strongboar as a parallel for Jaime, but for Lancel, I do. Both left an 'unfaithful' partner to focus on their knightly order (Sons of the Warrior/White Swords).

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Nobody is safe in Westeros.  But are you hinting that Jaime was right, and that Lancel should have held onto Ami for the sake of Lannister interests, and this would have been best for Ami as well?

It wouldn't have been a very happy marriage, would it?  

I'm not criticising Lancel's choices. But Ami might not want another roll of the dice - she was having a lovely time.

On 6/29/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Under normal rules, the next Lord will be whoever the Lady chooses to marry.  Maybe Strongboar.  And hopefully, it will be voluntary this time.  No guarantees.

That's the heart of it. It is not and never was in the Lannisters' interest to recognise Ami as the legitimate heir and Lady of Darry. Better for them to treat Darry like Harrenhal - a property that reverted to the Crown when the family 'died out', so they can hand it over to their own side. They gave Darry to Lancel, not Ami.

Ami came from a poor and disrespected side of the Frey family - if the Freys thought she was in the line to inherit, they'd have kept her close, instead of marrying her to a hedge knight and considering her a problem. But the weakness of her claim doesn't matter to the Lannisters - actually better that she doesn't out-rank her husband - and as Kevan plans it, her Darry blood will help win over the small folk to Lancel. The next lord might not need/want that extra validation. Let's hope it's Strongboar. He seems more Ami's type; and if she loses interest, well, he might not notice.

Moon symbolism seems much easier to see - moonstones, silver, black and white. Sun symbols are not so obvious around the Stark girl; so the Nymeria/sun connection is really interesting.

While we're here - out of Arya and Sansa, which one is the sun?

Just interested in everyone's gut feeling - because there's a lot to say on both sides, and no clear answer last time I thought about it.

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

While names can sometimes have significance, it helps to be careful.  There are thousands of people, places, and objects and he has call them something.  There can be surface connections possibly, and maybe a little deeper, but go too deep, and you find yourself lost.

There is a quote somewhere... I heard GRRM said the name had to fit the character,  and of course in the books there's great play over losing a name, forgetting a name, remembering a name. But you're right the massive size of the cast isn't totally helping.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

So we disagree about what betrayal does or does not necessarily imply.

So much is implied, so little happened. That's how George wrote it.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it's no coincidence that Sansa's wolf is killed because she refused to tell the truth on the Trident, and her ending up in the Lannister clutches of her own volition during the coup.

We genuinely do disagree pretty much on everything, so you won't be surprised here either.

Lady died because Cersei was freaked out by the direwolves (She shuddered. She called them 'unnatural'. She said, "They are dangerous. I will not have any of them coming south with us."). And Lady died because Joffrey was bitten by a direwolf. And because Robert thought Lady was a 'savage beast' who would attack Sansa eventually. And because Ned let it happen.

Sansa walked toward Cersei, true, but she and everyone else were already in Lannister clutches. There was a coup on, and Ned's stronghold was a target.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While GRRM has a passage where someone is sent to the “buttery” to get butter and cheese, a buttery is not a place where butter or dairy is stored.  Or I suppose, it could be stored there, but that’s not technically the purpose.

Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie.  Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks.  

It’s basically a storeroom.  Where the barrels are kept.  

That's really interesting, I never thought about it. Buttery is a funny name for a place that produces not only butter but also cream and cheese and so on. Nowadays though several places use it as a synonym for dairy, so I suppose it all works out.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Not looking for a fight.  But these parallels set up the contrast I mentioned.  And I guess we are supposed to notice the contrast as well.

Fair enough. It'd be a pity if we all thought the same. I'll just clarify my meaning in a few places where it needs it.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Jaime abandoned his lordship FOR his sexy partner.  Later, and for other reasons, he abandoned his sexy partner too.

That's true, but I was thinking of when Jaime chose the kingsguard over Tywin's offer to restore him to Casterly Rock.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

No opinion on how sexy Amerei is.  She is a healthy young woman with enormous tracts of land.  I guess that makes her sexy enough.

I meant sexually active, really. And going beyond societal restrictions.

2 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel's relationship with Amerei is that she is handed to him as a prize of war.  And he simply sets her free.  Which was the honorable, devout and chivalrous thing to do.  He is not really questing after true knighthood (whatever that means).  But he is acting like a true knight.  And directly contrary to the advice and urgings of Jaime.

I like Ami for some reason. I hope she gets to keep her castle, but it's not a done deal without Lancel - the next lord might want to marry someone else.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I bet you're right. I see Jon Snow looking in faceted mirrors when he is surrounded by Grenn, Pyp, Satin, Leathers, other Night's Watch pals, possibly even Sam. We never really see Jaime surrounded by kings guard members until he returns from Riverrun and Cersei has appointed the new motley crew to the six positions. But Jaime leaves on his Riverlands mission and surrounds himself with his own squires, hostages, fighters such as Strongboar and - plucked from the dark dungeon - Ser Ilyn Payne. These fellow travelers are likely aspects of himself and reflect his evolving personality or world view.

We never hear of Josmyn Peckleton until Jaime departs on this quest. Names that start with J are significant, I think, and possibly linked. Just as Tyrion resisted the idea of riding the pig when it was suggested by Joffrey and, for awhile, by Penny, I think Jaime resisted the idea of sleeping the Pia but eventually came up with a solution by encouraging his squire to lovingly and gently sleep with her.

This reminds me very much of Lady Tanda trying everywhere to find a husband for Lollys but failing in all of her attempts both before and after Lollys is raped. Bronn, a right-hand-man for Tyrion, finally marries Lollys and he says he genuinely likes his wife. 

I hope it is a prophetic universe. Anyway, these are great observations, thank you, they feel absolutely right.

I kinda feel there's something in the letter J. GRRM really loves the name Jeyne, doesn't he? I must have another go at looking at how he hands out the names.

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel seems more of a contrast than a parallel. 

Really!!? He killed the king and fucked the queen, and if the reader is too asleep to notice that, Jaime spells it out on the page. And then Lancel says he wanted to be Jaime. These are parallels we're meant to notice. 

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Lancel repents, and asks Jaime to join him in repentance.  Jaime refuses.

Jaime is already disgusted by his bad reputation; he wants to take his last chance for honour and earn a shining write-up in the White Book. So like Lancel, he abandons his lordship and his sexy partner, and goes questing after true knighthood.

This doesn't mean they're the same character; like I said, he also has parallels with Peck (warcraft prodigy), and even Loras (He's me, and, I'm speaking to myself). Whatever GRRM intends by it - anything from the gardening method to a prophetic universe - these arcs could hint at the alternate paths before Jaime: reuniting with Cersei; abandoning her for true knighthood; destroying himself in the madness of war. Any or all or these.

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

When looking for clues, I prefer to suspend disbelief, while giving some consideration to the literary consideration that an author will tend to focus on details that are story-relevant. [...]

You have a tidy mind, @Gilbert Green !  But face up to it, GRRM's mind is not near so tidy, and he has a lot of time for puzzles. (If you were writing them, the books would much simpler and shorter. And finished.)

43 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

-- Not relevant that Gatehouse Ami and Pia are both promiscuous IMHO.  Unless, perhaps, they somehow get confused in Jaime's damaged zombie brain.

See? It gets interesting when you get past 'not relevant' and start thinking about things. Lancel has even more parallels to Jaime than Peck does. Including abandoning his sinful 'wife' for a life of purity.

On 6/25/2023 at 10:18 AM, The Sleeper said:

The first thing my mind went to when I first read the books and specifically the depiction of Ice was Stormbringer and Melnibone. I can get by the idea that Valyrian swords are haunted/cursed or perhaps fated, but it's not a general rule. There plenty of people who are bloodthirsty without Valyrian steel and others who have Valyrian swords and are not bloodthirsty. It could play out as theme but there is room in the story for it to be a genuine magical element.

I've not read any Stormbringer stories (maybe I should), but it's got to be worth running with as far as we can.

It's true ordinary steel shares the weirdness (thinking of Jaime and Tyrion and maybe Sandor feeling like the gods of war, and the general 'live steel' idea). I think maybe it's magic - blood being a kind of fuel for magic - but it could be humans just getting a sense of the magic world, similar to legend being a folk memory of something real. So not just a theme, but how much more I don't know.

On 6/25/2023 at 10:18 AM, The Sleeper said:

If we are to look to something like that, it should be the original Valyrian sword, Ice. Original in the sense, that it was the first portrayed in the story and the one most attention has been given to, by far. it has been used regularly in a fashion that has been shown to be very similar to ancient sacrifices (Ned using it for executions, then ritually cleaning it before Winterfell's heart tree, feeding it in the process) even turning against its wielder when it was used to execute Ned. Then there are the resulting swords, which appear to be stained by blood. Their names are also relevant to the stories of their wielders. Widow's Wail appears to be referring to Cersei wailing when Joffrey was murdered. Brienne and Jaime have story arcs that revolve around the keeping of oaths. The description of the fight at the Whispers refers to Oathkeeper coming alive in Brienne's hands. The name "Oathkeeper" could itself be a reference to another sword in Moorcock's mythos "Traitor" which belonged to Corum (Moorcock has tons of cursed swords).

I think we don't get close enough to most VS wielders to get inside their heads, but for the ones we do, the Stormbringer angle is a lot of fun. Ice most of all. None of us doubts Ned is an honourable guy, but Cat's first chapter is suggestive: Whenever he took a man's life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood. And then she says: 'I did not wish to trouble you until you had cleansed yourself.'  So! Ned feels unclean after killing with Ice. And what does he feel exactly? The Hound might have it: 'Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.'  Yep, that would definitely make Ned feel unclean.

The other VS greatsword is Heartsbane, and Randyll is clearly mad as a box of frogs. This is how he dismissed Sam, his eldest son: 'on the morrow we shall have a hunt, and somewhere in the woods your horse will stumble, and you will be thrown from the saddle to die... or so I will tell your mother. [...] Please do not imagine it will truly be that easy, should you think to defy me. Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are.'

Randyll sounds like a man in a long relationship with a Stormbringer sword. And he says this: 'Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt.'  Her hilt. More anthropomorphism, just like Lady Forlorn. And of course, of course a bloodthirsty soul-drinking demonblade would not be happy in marriage to Samwell Tarly.

For a bonus, Sam describes how he felt holding Heartsbane: 'It was Valyrian steel, beautiful but so sharp I was afraid I'd hurt one of my sisters.'  Well don't point it at your sister, Sam! Where did that thought even come from?

Heartsbane is beautiful, feminine, must have a man worthy of her, and inspires thoughts about Sam's sisters falling victim to her. Demonblade.

On 6/19/2023 at 6:03 PM, Evolett said:

Ice is tempered with Ned Stark's blood and has been reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. What effect might the honourable Ned's blood and soul have on the blades and their wielders? It's possible the two blades are now more "balanced" than the original Ice. 

Great thought. Wow. Hmm.

The main thing I see in Pia's story is Jaime's continuing process of purification - which right now just irritates me, because he's in a sort of unhappy valley between wicked and good. Still full of himself though.

Suppose Jaime views his squires as small shadows of himself, then the way he guides and moulds Peck becomes revealing. Pia behaves promiscuously and gets a monstrous 'punishment', but after that she can be forgiven and received into a relationship with Peck, who even forgives the loss of her beauty.

Jaime draws the parallel with Cersei himself: 'Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor had done to poor Pia.'

Is Pia's outcome what he wants for Cersei? Broken and humble and ready for sex? I think it is. (It's a mean interpretation, but I can't help it.)

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

I disagree. Her telling Cersei about the ship waiting to take them to Winterfell almost results in Arya getting caught.

Ned is not Arya. I was arguing against the use of the word 'betrayal' because the primary implication of the word is that Ned himself, in person, was delivered by Sansa into the power of Cersei and as a consequence was executed. I think that's how most people hear it.

The whole ship thing isn't strong either:

1. Nowhere is it shown that Sansa told Cersei about the ship.
2. The spy networks extend to the docks, as shown by Catelyn's experience.
3. The Starks are rubbish at keeping secrets. Ned sent his own steward to arrange passage, a man easily identified by the spies.

(Above from memory, I'll try and check it later.) (All good.)

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Never claimed she killed him, just betrayed him, which I don’t really think is up for dispute.

I do dispute it. 'Betrayal' has so wide a definition it's almost worthless: it covers everything from hurt feelings of one person, to loss, suffering and/or death for millions. It's a rubbish word, it only misleads.

I don't think it's accurate either. Sansa loves her father, never transferred her loyalties to Cersei. She wanted to stay with her father in the Tower of the Hand, just like before. She went crazy with grief when he died. She didn't harm him either - never wished to harm him, and knew nothing that could harm him. The idea of betrayal collapses to nothing.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Ned’s one man in a thousand.

True.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Ned trusted Cat when it came to Littlefinger. That was what got him killed.

Ned is big enough and old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. And he is a class act who would never shift the blame for his mistakes onto the nearest family female, like those whiny Lannister babies (Cersei made me do it!)

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

There is no promise of a material reward for being a good man. 

True again.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

I think the original outlines show Sansa was not originally a big character, and was supposed to have Joffrey’s kid, but her role has clearly changed with the telling. Although she’s basically been a pawn up until this point, I think we all hope she takes on a more active role.

I don't know. My instinct is that everyone carries on as they did before, playing the same role and strategies, but the stakes get much, much higher.

Also, so far it's been the strong against the weak, and the weak have been crushed miserably, but I think the weak will get their turn to make a difference in the coming plot. Bran's on the weak side. So is Sam. So is Sansa.

5 hours ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

When the Dothraki attack the Lhazareen in GoT, Dany essentially forces the men to marry the women they were raping.

Doesn't really happen:

Quote

Dany told him what she had done, in his own tongue so the khal would understand her better, her words simple and direct.

When she was done, Drogo was frowning. “This is the way of war. These women are our slaves now, to do with as we please.”

“It pleases me to hold them safe,” Dany said, wondering if she had dared too much. “If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives. Give them places in the khalasar and let them bear you sons.”

Qotho was ever the crudest of the bloodriders. It was he who laughed. “Does the horse breed with the sheep?”

Something in his tone reminded her of Viserys. Dany turned on him angrily. “The dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike.”

Khal Drogo smiled. “See how fierce she grows!” he said. “It is my son inside her, the stallion who mounts the world, filling her with his fire. Ride slowly, Qotho … if the mother does not burn you where you sit, the son will trample you into the mud. And you, Mago, hold your tongue and find another lamb to mount. These belong to my khaleesi.”

On 6/21/2023 at 4:53 PM, Mourning Star said:

I don't know, it seems like a pretty big and substantive betrayal to me, though not to the point literally killing Ned.

The conflict was coming, and it was Littlefinger's choice to side with Cersei that really decided the matter (since he owned the Gold Cloaks in all but name). However, Sansa did clearly disobey her father and run to Cersei with his plans, which I think qualifies as a pretty solid betrayal. Not that we can't sympathize and understand her motives, but it was still selfish and disloyal.

Not substantive though - Sansa knows nothing at all that could hurt Ned. She didn't get him killed, or imprisoned, or even hurt his feelings that we can see - he knows he did it to himself. He gave Cersei all the information she needed to trap him, and besides he was completely naive to the spies and traitors of KL. He paid the price.

On 6/21/2023 at 4:53 PM, Mourning Star said:

No interesting character is perfect, and I do think GRRM's plan for Sansa has become more interesting as the storytelling evolved, being less of a Cersei-lite and more a main character in her own right. I do think the jury is still out on what the future of Sansa's plot looks like, and personally do hope it becomes more about overcoming her situation than a tale of a victim becoming a villain.

Villain or hero, as long as it's big, I don't mind. Sansa was always a big character - look at the time and plotting GRRM spends on her! There will be a pay-off.

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’d say Sansa’s treatment of Jon was formal and distant, rather than mean.

I disagree! She advised him how to talk to girls - that's not formal and distant, that's cute and little-sister-like, and he keeps it in his memory of her.

The division between Jon and Sansa that we're actually shown is 'don't tell Sansa' , i.e. Sansa does report rule-breaking, every time. And of course Jon must sympathise with Arya who focuses her unhappiness on Sansa at the time.

3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

The original Azor Ahai, as far as we know (and if he really existed) didn't have dragons either, and I can't help but notice that "raise dragons from stone" wasn't in Melisandre's original Azor Ahai speech in ACOK but added later in ASOS.  Is that some more of George Martins' "gardening", or Melisandre herself changing the story as she sees fit?

GRRM, I think - he's added Aemon (The dragons prove it), and Benerro, who must be pro-dragon too, or what is he thinking of?

3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree about Dany rationalizing it.  I'm not saying how the dragons were actually revived, but what she thinks happened. (But for fans who claim she knew exactly what she was doing, then they must also accept that she sacrificed 3 humans to do so.)  I was just stating that Dany bringing dragons back from extinction was not a good thing... proving even more so if it was done through human sacrifice.

Everybody likes human sacrifice, even the trees. Probably we should be saying magic and the gods are not a good thing, and the blood sacrifices prove it. I think this will turn out to be true.

40 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

In regard to Dany sacrificing 3 human lives, Dany's thoughts themselves literally claim that the three human deaths brought back the dragons (see below) so either she is Azor Ahai and she knew what she was doing by sacrificing three human lives, or she isn't and she didn't.

That was rationalising after the event. Besides, the original AA didn't have complete knowledge either, so this proves nothing.

Stormbringer being the seed for Lightbringer seems the most likely, and VS swords generally. The hungry sword idea plays out openly with Lady Forlorn - she has a thirst; whenever she comes out to dance she likes a drop of red. Maybe we should be looking at the VS wielders instead of dragon riders and wargs.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He’s a weak, sickly boylord, and right now they are at peace. It would be every vassals dream to be a regent to such and normally they would be at eachothers throats to control him but in this instance they cooperate.

Sickly is the key part of the dream here; they really need him to die quickly before he reaches the age when the 'let them fly!' order starts being obeyed. Joffrey was thirteen (irrc) when he executed Ned, and showed every sign of growing into Aerys III. The lords will have learned a lesson there if they didn't know it already.

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

The fans have given up the mindset of right vs wrong and decided GRRM is writing a story about winning vs losing. If you win, you're smart. If you lose, it's because you're dumb. Watching readers fall victim to the mindsets of people like Tywin, Littlefinger, and Walder is both frustrating and a little scary.

Readers have got to learn to spot the tropes - the hour of the wolf is the darkest hour before dawn. That sort of trope never gets subverted.

On 6/18/2023 at 10:05 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

She’ll be throwing him to his vassals, the base of his power as a lord. He could become a toy for them for years to come but at least if he survives he could eventually act for himself but  without his title as a lord he is weak, sickly addicted boy that will be deprived of both the substance he is addicted to and a maester’s care. Almost certain death.

The lords must absolutely dread the idea of SR becoming their lord; he's weak, hard to control, easily frightened, enjoys the idea of executing people who frighten him, doesn't appear too clever, likely to fall ill at the worst possible moments. He's a looming disaster of a lord, and in that scenario a major embarrassment too.

I think they're trying to kill him.

On 6/18/2023 at 4:06 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 I believe Sansa will eventually end up with Jon, jumping from one one eyed burned men to the next, first Sandor, then Timett and finally Jon.

I'm not a Jonsa fan, but there is a lot of foreshadowing out there. I think it happens, but only in a symbolic way. Aegon and his sisters.

18 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

Sansa does not need to suddenly transform into some sort of "master player" in order to win the Vale. A lot of the groundwork has already been done for her. She merely needs to demonstrate that she's her father's daughter.

LF said Ned as a player was like a man skating on thin ice, and you can't say he was wrong. Sansa needs to be like Ned, but a shade more alert, more realistic. She do well to carry on being inspired by Cat as well.

I think she won't be heading down that path anytime soon though; I think her arc is headed into the supernatural.

Queen of the North is possible. If George doesn't want an ending too celebratory about the institution of monarchy, he might swerve giving a throne to any of his authentic alpha leaders - Jon, Daenerys, Arya - and instead leave one to Sansa, who can only rule by learning what people want and using it to move them. It's a Littlefinger lesson, and they're not all bad.

On 6/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

You are rude and clearly misunderstood.

Touché! Rudeness is the bane of any forum; I blush to stand accused of it.

On 6/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Mourning Star said:

Littlefinger explicitly betrayed Ned and plotted his downfall. From lying about the dagger, to having the gold cloaks side with Cersei.

At that point, his mistreatment of Jeyne Poole is just another tear in the sea.

Sansa betrayed Ned, by running to Cersei, but she didn’t kill her father.

Ok but now I wish you wouldn't use the word 'betrayed'. You mean she betrayed Ned's trust, right? That subtlety gets lost when the overwhelming point of interest is whether she betrayed him to his death. Fewer people would believe Sansa got her father killed/imprisoned if the word 'betrayal' wasn't thrown around so much.