EggBlue

I think the issue that irks me (and perhaps the others) about HOTD , isn't necessarily what they changed or their character choices that might differ from my interpretation of the book or the set-in-stone canon facts; rather it's that they're never bold about their choices in the show imo. which honestly leaves a confused vibe to the show and makes it more mediocre. there are deliberate "bomb"s in the show that lack the impact due to repetition. for example, Joffrey's death scene or Rhaenys's thing in Ep9. these surprises are completely pointless. They don't add to the story. they are not Ned's death that leaves the whole GoT the show as the consequence! they're not the battle of Blackwater that leaves Stannis weak and ready to delve further into sorcery! they're not the Red Wedding! they are just the crazy thing of the week! they are only as good as the Supernatural's monster of the week! this really sucks because it's obvious that they have tried to make something memorable...then there's the bigger issue. that's the lack of boldness in writing, specifically regarding characters. there's this trend in shows today that they shy away from making a character unlikeable. they're trying to avoid backlash(this one is also on the our social media culture). Alicent's character comes to mind about that. I don't mind how they have changed her age. although that puts her in a more favorable position from the get-go as she is not an adult having a feud with a 7-14-year-old! but her actions during ep 8-10 are a bit odd. She is not consistent, and worse, she comes off as stupid, which couldn't be further from the truth given the power she's gotten herself as a queen consort when the king has a fully grown heir. then there's Viserys's marked hesitation in marrying Laena because of her age. which is pretty good and in character at that (even in the book twenty-something yr old Viserys did not want to marry a 12 yr old. he wanted to marry a woman, and any woman. a woman he's chosen) . but the show completely ignores that about what they emphasised about the character two scenes ago by having him wed Alicent , a 14-15 yr old and his daughter's friend at that. all while he looks 40 at the very least. VidAngel??????? is that some sort of voluntarily censorship?!!

but he "don't want it" Targaryen or Blackfyre . Aegon VI, all the way!

young Griff:)) I'll support him to the bitter end!

to be honest, I pretty much doubt that either GRRM/Cheesmonger/Spider had any proper plans! Even Jon Con complains about this. the only thing that can make sense to me is that Illyrio and Varys are coming up with these plans when they see opportunities. They take Aegon because there's a chance he'd be useful. They reach JonCon , starting project perfect-king when Robert becomes a disappointment, and they can predict a mess in the future. They think of the Dothraki and Viserys and Daenerys when Jon Arryn, and Stannis start asking questions. They remember Dany can be useful after she has dragons. It would be very odd if they had a plan from the beginning. Including (and especially) fAegon, Blackfyre, or Aegon the Savior plan! They seem to be rich enough just to rent a famous sellsword company for a side project too! I mean, we are given zero indication that Illyrio had any reason to give three expensive dragon eggs to Dany. But he does, and neither he nor Dany see it as any financial difficulty.

are we holding a trial?

Read that again. You missed so many points in my post. I read a couple of your posts after that one, so I will answer all of them here. Just to be clear! the point I was trying to make in that post was solely about CERSEI. the comparison between her and Tywin and Daenerys does not mean I took up a ruler measuring if Cersei's as bad as Tywin (in Bloody Mummers episode no less!) or that Daenerys is an angel Cersei can never hope to be like. you started this thread basically claiming that Cersei was an innocent girl put in a terrible situation and forced to make terrible choices. you claimed the hatred towards Cersei is unjustified firstly because of her background and then because she is not in some 25 most evil characters list and such. that's the gist of it. In my first post, I explained why the hatred towards Cersei is more intense than someone like Gregor Clegane. and that it doesn't even matter whether she is the worst to be the most hated. obviously, you ignored that post, and from what I've skimmed through, the posts like it. never mind. then you went on emphasizing again and again and again that Cersei's backstory should count toward something. when others rightly pointed out that lowborn characters had worse backgrounds, you dismissed that too. so, in the post you clearly did not understand, I first pointed out that people like Bloody Mummers may in part be the product of rulers like Tywin , Cersei, and Roose. I don't know why you said Cersei was not involved in Tywin's campaign as that was just an example. You see, I was merely pointing out how Cersei's acts would have a bigger effect than the Goat's. If you can't see what I mean, then let's take a look at Cersei's Dwarf Hunt. god knows how many people hunted down innocent dwarfs or in some cases, children, just to have a head delivered to Cersei. In this scenario, these criminals are like Bloody Mummers, Cersei is like Tywin who not only has created a situation where they can commit murder without punishment but are also encouraged. so there's that. now we get to the Daenerys point of the post, which, again, you missed completely! Since you were reluctant to accept any comparison with lowborn characters, I thought a comparison with Daenerys, who may have very deliberately been placed in a similar situation by the author might help. Daenerys was in a similar situation with Cersei, a touch worse even. so much that her only family member did the opposite of making her feel safe. at least Cersei had Jaimie her entire life. the point is not that Daenerys is sinless. But it is that in a worse situation, she made better choices than Cersei. (If you'd like we can break down all these choices, but that needs another thread. ) therefore, Cersei's "tragic" background not only doesn't justify her actions but can hardly be so much as an excuse. Daenerys is simply the literal proof that it is possible to make different choices. Cersei tried to make the world an even worse place when she came to power as queen regent; Daenerys tried to make it better with an epiphany that king and queen's job is to bring justice. if you deny this, all I can suggest is to reread the books. Oh, and the issue of Cersei's love for her children that you've continuously noted in this thread. honestly, give me a passage, sentence, whatever in the book that we can conclude Cersei is motivated by love for her children. From what I read her biggest motivations are greed and lust for power and, more importantly, attention. her love for her children ends with her love for a part of herself. she is even emotionally extremely abusive towards Tommen, and instead of educating him for survival (which you claim to be her goal), thinks it's finally her chance and uses him for her own selfish ambitions.

I can't say I disagree. The problem is "Aegon's prophecy" is a bit of a goofy theory, claiming that Aegon knew precisely what would happen and had exactly the correct conclusions as to what to do! As we've seen in the books, prophecies/dreams are vague on their own, then there is the perception of them! It is almost impossible that Aegon would get all the right answers! However, I do think the books give enough vagueness that Aegon can potentially have a dream or prophecy driving him, though not the famous "Aegon's prophecy" that HOTD used. In my opinion, that is the three-headed dragon prophecy. The thing is, Aegon was involved in Essosi affairs before his sudden and ambitious conquest. he also married both his sisters ;and during the conquest and afterward treated them as equals. all despite the fact that no Targaryen lord after Aenar had more than one wife. then he took up the three-headed dragon sigil. and it could be only a sigil, if Rhaegar and Aemon hadn't seen more to it. whatever reason Rgaegar and Aemon had to think three is a sacred number when it comes to the dragons, Aegon and his sisters must have had the same notion. my best guess is some sort of prophecy or dream.

Being lowborn is not an excuse, just like having a tragic backstory in noble life is not an excuse. The lowborn villains not only have more limitations and fewer choices, but they are also pretty much the result of people like Cersei and Tywin being in charge, who, instead of mitigating the crime rate in their territory, employ people like the Bloody Mummers—enabling them in do so and frankly creating a demand in the market! Would the bloody mummers even become a "company" famed for their cruelty if influential people like Tywin did not need their services? Would Ramsey Bolton be just as evil if his father didn't find messing with him by sending Reek as his babysitter amusing?! Probably not.... but do these facts excuse the crimes of the Goat or Ramsay? No. In the same way, Cersei's upbringing and issues merely explain why she turned out the way she is; it does not justify her crimes, whether you think she had it worse than Ramsay, Goat, or Rorge. Then there's the matter of CHOICES. Pretending that Cersei had no choice in her crimes is extraordinarily absurd and sexist (as Craving Peaches aptly said). A great comparison in this regard is with Daenerys: Cersei suffered from Tywin, Daenerys suffered from Viserys Cersei lost her mother as a child, and Daenerys lost both her parents Cersei had a brother who cared about her, and Daenerys had Viserys, for god's sake Cersei received a scary prophecy as a teenager; Daenerys fucking sees the prophecies in her dreams as a teenager Cersei was married as a pawn to a brute of a husband, and so was Daenerys Cersei was raped, and so was Daenerys on top of that, Daenerys also experienced poverty by the end, you don't see the two women making the same choices, committing the same atrocities; doesn't that tell you something?

First of all, Cersei hardly has any redeemable qualities. Cersei is not only selfish, cruel, manipulative, and petty, but she also fails to be a competent antagonist, which makes each of her acts even more irritating. As for the Evil List, it simply does not matter. Characters don't invoke feelings in the readers because of their morality and such; they invoke feelings due to their impact. Cersei might be a better person than Gregor Clegane; however, while Gregor's worst cruelties are only hearsay and are towards secondary characters in the books, Cersei's are alive on the page and are directed towards the protagonists. This is actually true in RL too. You don't hate some murderer you see on the news with the same intensity you hate an abusive or even cheating spouse.

yeah

ooh , fun. yeah , well , Lannisters are pretty evil! lol . I kinda got the opposite of this ever since I joined the forum (and started watching youtube fan videos before that). seems like the show has solidified the lack of importance in YG's character in the fandom. wait a minute, she is more human now? there was a time that Dany hard-core fans were even more faithful?! good that was kinda embarrassing! I know where this is coming from Bard . have we been hard on you about Sansan? wow! Do you call this few?! after thinking for a moment, I recalled we had more than popular threads criticizing GRRM . so that sounds about right ha!

I would've said eight episodes aren't enough. But they did manage to cramp 20 years of materials and, more importantly, character development into ten episodes, and it was largely ok. Luke got all the character writing he needed for his death in two episodes; I suspect the same would happen with Jace and the rest. so, if only to keep the pacing the same as season 1 (as in every episode has a shock value moment, huge plot developments and major character deaths), I guess 8 episodes and 3 seasons in total makes sense.

to be honest, I quite like Jaimie and I definitely enjoy Tyrion's chapters . It doesn't change the fact that Jaimie's been a piece of shit most of his life to the point that he was more than ready to maim an 8 yr old girl because he thought his sister demanded it during sex. And also doesn't change the fact that Tyrion is a creep who has a singer killed and cooked in a stew for the poor. maybe "evil" is too much for Jaimie and Tyrion to an extent, but they are not good enough to outweigh their father and sister's evil. as for the rest, I'm pretty sure I said prominent members. I counted Tywin and his children as core House Lannister as Cersei's children are raised as Baratheons. Even Joffrey is proud to be Robert's son. but if we are going to count brothers and cousins, then I'd say Kevan is definitely one of the worst men in Westeros . not only the man is a partner in crime to Tywin , but he is also responsible for the terrible punishment of "walk of shame" for his own niece. the rest of the Lannisters, Genna, Daven, and Lancel (even though he is a little fool) are ok I guess. but again, they affect the overall reputation of Lannisters as Merrit "the innocent" Frey does the Freys .

I'm not bringing up historical figures and such. Because if we examine everything closely, every house ends up evil. Sadly including the Starks( the Hungry Wolf must give you a hint). In the main series, and by counting the prominent members of each family, the evilest house is definitely, and for sure, 1. house Bolton; 2/2 members being super nasty. After that, it goes like this imo: 2. House Lannister: between Tywin's atrocities and Cersei's cruelties, the best thing you can get is Jaimie's arrogance and Tyrion's frustrating self-pity, who both, despite heroic and humane moments, are pretty terrible people, especially Tyrion, with showing great potential to become a mini-Tywin. (and I'm not even counting Joffrey as a Lannister!) 3. House Greyjoy : You've got Euron(pure evil), Balon(frustratingly cruel) and Victarion(a dumb rock who is more that capable of cruelty) , every bit terrible individuals. then you have Aurone, who might be the best Greyjoy despite being a freaking fanatic. Then you have Theon, a prickly, selfish dude, even as Reek, and Asha, who only has the benefit of a very low bar to be counted as the most normal Greyjoy.

you people think every character's arc is to choose between serving the true goddess, Daenerys, or standing against her.. don't you?

yep..

I think the battles would have added a lot to the book . Asha , Stannis , Theon , Tyrion , Victarion and Barristan may not end with cliffhangers, but they are definitely incomplete and even pointless to a point. that can easily be said about Quentyn , the constant discussions of lacking a point, and the dragons that never danced in a book called Dance with Dragons. with the battles, numerous POVs would have come together in one place and one of the most boring storylines, Meereen, would have come to a conclusion. which would have made the only two cliffhangers, Dany and Jon's , less frustrating and even fun because you wouldn't have to anticipate the conclusion to all the built up in two books.

or Targaryens . poor fellow

yes , that was Jon at 14(though the general consensus in the book is that he's wiser than his age) before his character development. this was Aegon at 18 before his character development. I don't see much difference in that regard. the situations are indeed comparable. you shouldn't look at it as "oh , well he suggested that Dany might not be submissive" ... NO . as much as Jon's "brothers" and his bastardy is a huge deal for Jon, Aegon's sole purpose in life is important to him. Tyrion didn't just point out that his plans may not succeed. he shattered the boy's bubble completely. Tyrion questioned his identity which is honestly a big deal . not because of inheritance stuff but because of how would you feel if someone comes along and questions everything you know about yourself . then he questioned Dany's willingness to help him which from his answer we know he expects her help because they are kin (his only kin from Targ side at that) , not that it is her duty or that he'd be an amazing king . then T questions his abilities and why anyone should join his cause. then he questions Jon Con (basically his dad) and everyone else's loyalty and questions the success of a purpose he was preparing for his whole life. he also tells him of his dead father's overboldness and what not. then he tells him he needs to prove himself to the nobles which like it or not works exactly the way Aegon approached it . yeah , it would have been different if Westeros was in a time of peace but it is not at the point Aegon decides to attack. this was surely a well-aimed, well-executed manipulation on Tyrion's part with heavy implications for Aegon. would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better.

I don't think the guy's the perfect king like Varys likes to believe either . but that is not to say Tyrion's assessment of him is correct . in book 1 , Tyrion did the exact same thing to Jon on their way up to Wall and Jon had Ghost terrorized Tyrion for it. sure, Tyrion didn't compare Jon to Joffrey then. but if we compare the two instances with Aegon and Jon, save for Tyrion's position in the whole thing they are exactly the same. two princes showing exactly the same behavior towards a certain (physically) underdog when faced with terrible truths. only Tyrion sees himself in Jon as a bastard, is generally in a better mood and genuinely wants to help Jon see the truth. with Aegon, he downright tries to make him angry and manipulate him, he himself is in a bad place and doesn't see anything of himself in Aegon . so naturally he thinks about the other prince he knew.

Unfortunately, I think Aegon is up for a tragic end (probably at the lowest point of the Dream of Spring) too. whether there will be a Dance or not , I do not know ( a boring affair with only 3 dragons), but I doubt he'll survive this series. we can already be sure that another tragedy is waiting for him in tWoW . his father figure has a terrible disease and will go mad. he might have to kill JonCon after a Bells episode or support him and lose all of his kingdoms and popularity... like another Aegon I would say RE his competence, I don't know. but he's definitely a good kid, well-behaved, generally nice, appreciates competence instead of bloodlines (as appointing Duck as his kingsgaurd shows), albeit a bit arrogant (I'd say not more arrogant or naive than Robb and Jon at the beginning of the series) and shows a hint of sexism in his Golden Company speech (as it is Westerosi way)

we cannot be sure of the Kingsgaurds' purpose even before Rhaegar's death. Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and Oswell was most likely Rhaegar's man as well . but the White Bull was loyal to the king to the bitter end, remember? and Aerys had named Viserys his heir even when both of Rhaegar's unquestionably legitimate children lived. so , it can't be about that. and besides, Aerys dies about 2 weeks after Rhaegar if I remember correctly. the Kingsgaurd are located in a secret remote spot. for all we know they had received all the news at the same time , not long before Ned's arruval.

guys , you're forgetting something(s) here : a) at that point Jon wasn't born and thus there was no way to know if the baby is a girl (after Viserys in line of succession) or a boy (before Viserys given we assume that R&L were indeed married) ... b) whether Jon is a bastard or not , he'd be a member of royal family if Rhaegar recognizes him and I guess nothing shouts "this kid is mine" more than abducting(running away with) a woman and keeping her in a love(sex) tower. ... I have my own issues with the Kingsgaurds' presence (and almost half of the order at that?!) and I have come up with some theories of my own. But because of the reasons stated above, I tend to think it's not about a matter of succession if it's about unborn Jon. the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys . thanks to Jaimie who still feels ashamed and guilty for failing Rhaegar's family despite his order to protect them , we can know that the Kingsgaurd don't just abandon their mission because of the royal's death(unless they are Jaimie)

sorry to disappoint but Fire and Blood is just an expansion of a part of World Book + Princess and the Queen and the Rogue Prince ... so, not that many new materials there. and of course, this last Targ book is just a summary of fire and blood with pretty pictures. I'd say all the credit for that one should go to the artists rather than GRRM!

I hate that theory. I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not! first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!