[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Annara Snow]

Am I the only one found the dragons more sympathetic than for the majority of named human characters in the story (with a few exceptions)? Poor dragons, made to fight in stupid human wars, blamed for it and destroyed as a result of it.

Favorite moments -

1) the Tessarion/Seasmoke "dance" and the subsequent three way fight with Vermithor. "Who can know the heart of a dragon?"

2) Syrax going crazy in King's Landing after the other dragons' deaths

3) Sunfyre's slow death and the fight with Moondancer ridden by Baela

4) The description of Silverwing after the deaths of Vermithor (who was once Old King's mount, while Silverwing was his wife's, queen Alysanne's), Seasmoke and Tessarion: "Only after dark did she descend, to land beside her slain cousins. Later, singers would tell of how she thrice lifted Vermithor’s wing with her nose, as if to make him fly again, but this is most like a fable."

[tze]

I was directly quoting a dictionary. "Ancient" could be another term that I missed, and it does fit, but "trite" and "out of fashion" are technically correct synonyms.

Nor do I agree that "Hoary old warriors" means ancient in that case. That is a repetitive statement... "ancient, old warriors" ? I don't think so. It is synonymous with "greybeard" in that case. Hoary is exactly the color you would use to describe old men's beards.

Straight from the dictionary:

"(of a person) having gray or white hair; aged."

More straight from the dictionary:

"used in names of animals and plants covered with whitish fur or short hairs, e.g.,hoary bat, hoary cress."

Vhagar's color is strongly hinted at, but it was done with subtlety. It could also be a poor choice of words by the maester. I'm not saying we can be certain, just saying using the word "hoary" strictly to mean "old" here does not fit.

Straight from the dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoary

: very old

: not interesting, funny, etc., because of being used too often : not fresh or original

: having gray or white hair

Full Definition of HOARY

1

: gray or white with or as if with age

2

: extremely old : ancient <hoary legends>

Synonyms

aged, age-old, antediluvian, antique, dateless, hoar, ancient, immemorial, old, venerable

Rather than get bogged down in quoting various dictionaries at each other, I'll re-quote the parts that you originally quoted:

hoary old Vermithor, unridden since the death of King Jaehaerys.

but Jace reasoned that if Vermax, Syrax, and Caraxes were to descend on King’s Landing all at once, even “that hoary old bitch” would be unable to withstand them.

"Hoary" is not indicating actual color in the latter quote, just like it is not indicating actual color in the former quote. Vermithor, as you noted upthread, is bronze, not grey-white. My whole point is that there is no discrepancy in the quotes, because neither quote actually refers to either dragon's actual color. "Hoary" is a word frequently used to describe old people (and things) who are set in their ways (which is where the "out-of-fashion" association, and the grey/white "greybeard" associations, come from). It is frequently used along with the word "old" as emphasis, not repetitiveness, and it's frequently used in context of certain things associated with extreme age---being set in your ways, for example. LC Mormont calls Maege "a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful." Theon calls Dagmer Cleftjaw "The hoary old warrior". They aren't giving physical descriptions, they're using "hoary" to indicate certain personality traits associated with age. Have you ever heard the expression "Not that hoary old chestnut again?" It refers to something (a song, a joke, a comment, etc.) that's been told so many times it's become well-worn and familiar. The emphasis is on the age, not the color.

There is really no logical way to look at Jace's comment on Vhagar as an indicator of color rather than an indicator of age (and specific personality traits associated with age). The entire surrounding context deals with the Blacks' fear of Vhagar's extreme size and strength, which are directly tied to her extreme age.

[Ran]

Hoary does indeed refer to age in the context of the story, FWIW.

[maidenandwarrior]

Am I the only one found the dragons more sympathetic than for the majority of named human characters in the story (with a few exceptions)? Poor dragons, made to fight in stupid human wars, blamed for it and destroyed as a result of it.

Favorite moments -

1) the Tessarion/Seasmoke "dance" and the subsequent three way fight with Vermithor. "Who can know the heart of a dragon?"

2) Syrax going crazy in King's Landing after the other dragons' deaths

3) Sunfyre's slow death and the fight with Moondancer ridden by Baela

4) The description of Silverwing after the deaths of Vermithor (who was once Old King's mount, while Silverwing was his wife's, queen Alysanne's), Seasmoke and Tessarion: "Only after dark did she descend, to land beside her slain cousins. Later, singers would tell of how she thrice lifted Vermithor’s wing with her nose, as if to make him fly again, but this is most like a fable."

You're not alone. The death of Tessarion, Seasmoke, and Vermithor was the most disturbing passage for me. It was the only time I cried, especially at Silverwing's reaction to Vermithor's death, even though I know it was probably apocryphal.

Interestingly, I really loved Sunfyre's descriptions, and I desperately did not want him to die, even though I definitely did not want Aegon II to have a dragon anymore.

Ran, can you confirm that Silverwing's skull was later taken back to King's Landing, if and when she died? Or did she simply disappear and become assumed to be dead?

[dotheknifefight]

[sorted]

[dotheknifefight]

Ran, can you confirm that Silverwing's skull was later taken back to King's Landing, if and when she died? Or did she simply disappear and become assumed to be dead?

Silverwing did not die in this novella, at least not in the form it exists in Dangerous Women.

[maidenandwarrior]

Silverwing did not die in this novella, at least not in the form it exists in Dangerous Women.

Yeah, I know, that's why I want to know what happened to her. Look at my second question that you quoted. :)

[Florina Laufeyson]

My favorite moment is when Daemon Dark Sister'd the hell out of Aemond. That shit was epic!

[History of Westeros]

Hoary does indeed refer to age in the context of the story, FWIW.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. That makes it a slightly awkward usage, not a hint towards coloring.

Can we assume Vhagar, Balerion and Meraxes (and at least a few others) will have depictions in the WOIAF?

Feel free to tell us what color Vhagar is, by the way :)

[maidenandwarrior]

Did anyone else notice that the three "wild" dragons were a perfect allusion to Ned Stark's sons?

Cannibal - Rickon

Grey Ghost - Robb

Sheepstealer - Bran

[Anath]

I'm stumped about Laena Velaryon.

However, her wiki page just says she was a contender for Queen in 101. Why would she have a claim over Rhaenys if she was Rhaenys' daughter?? If Jaehaerys chose Baelon over Rhaenys, that shouldn't mean you skip her and go to her children when she's still alive...

Laenor's wiki, however, goes ahead and confirms him as Rhaenys' daughter. But as far as I've been able to find, there is no confirmation of that in the novella. It also says lords just spoke for him, whereas Laena was a straight up contender for Queen.

So is Laena not the daughter of Rhaenys and Corlys? If she wasn't, where did her claim come from?

At Storm's End, Luke said he was betrothed to his cousin Rhaena. Unless 'cousin' was used in broader context, that means that their parents were siblings. That could be only Laenor and Laena.

Besides, the "ae" names are much rarer in House Velaryon. In fact, I can think only of a Daemon Velaryon who lived at the times of Aegon I.

It's quite confusing.

But Storm's End was said to always support the right of Princess Rhaenys and her children. The context was related to the IT. So Rhaenys had more than one child and at one time, her children were claimants for the IT.

[dotheknifefight]

At Storm's End, Luke said he was betrothed to his cousin Rhaena. Unless 'cousin' was used in broader context, that means that their parents were siblings. That could be only Laenor and Laena.

Besides, the "ae" names are much rarer in House Velaryon. In fact, I can think only of a Daemon Velaryon who lived at the times of Aegon I.

It's quite confusing.

But Storm's End was said to always support the right of Princess Rhaenys and her children. The context was related to the IT. So Rhaenys had more than one child and at one time, her children were claimants for the IT.

YES. thank you for added proof. Just wanted to be extra sure.

[Hugor Stone]

1. Cut out. Purportedly, Gardner didn't feel it fit the theme of the anthology, or something.

2. Rumor has it Rhaenyra actually had her first three children with Harwin Strong, apparently a lover of hers. And there were also rumors of Laenor being a danger around young boys...

3. Marwyn to Sam:

From Aegon III's entry on woiaf:

(Fun fact: Aegon III died the same year as the last dragon)

4. Alicent's son Aegon becomes the second of his name around the age of 22. He dies half a year later. Aegon the younger becomes the king after that, probably at the age of 11. He is married to Jaehaera, about three years his younger. There would have been a regent. I guess it would make sense if Maelor inherited the throne... but who knows what happened to him? maybe that's also why Jaehaera was married to Aegon III, to lend legitimacy to his kingship?

5. He just wanted to reave, man.

6. Which letter?? The one to her uncle/husband Daemon to bring Nettles to Kings Landing? What makes you think she didn't?

7. Archmaester Gyldyne wrote this from a collection of accounts by the maesters involved, it seems. If you notice, the narrative switches between calling Rhaenyra a Princess or a Queen. Other places, too, sympathies sort of change.

Thanks. and Ser Lepus as well

4. Right, yet this implys that they fought after the book, which it says they do, but its to such a magnatude that the heir goes from green to black. Seems like the war hasnt reached it's conclusion.... (Are all the mature tamed dragons dead?) Who do you think becomes Regent, Hand and Protector, Green or Black?

6.Gyldyne (how do you know that's how it is?) usually describes the before and after, we knew about Addam but she never said anything about Daemon (or Nettles, but I may be wrong about that) It's just a hunch though.

New Question. What happend to the Lord of Whisperers?

[Shadowflame]

How many pages is the story?

81 pages.

[slayer420]

Did it surprise anyone else that Rhaenyra was not a kick ass woman that killed a few folks The book is Dangerus Women.I mean she did have a dragon. I don't think she killed one person. mostly she hid and held back most of the dragons. The one time she could have really made a difenance she didn't do anything but hold her kid back and then he tried to save the day and gets killed. I mean the dragons where her power and when she could of helped them she did nothing. she could have taken her son on her dragon and freed the other dragons. I guess this is why the iron throne regected her. she was very Cercie in her way of rule.

[Anath]

It just occurred to me that The Great Council in 101 is another proof that Rhaenys was descended from the senior branch of the family: she was a claimant and her lineage seems to be so strong that her children derived rights of their own despite being Velaryons, just because they were her children.

Daemon, Viserys' younger brother, though, isn't mentioned to have had a claim. Maybe the claims of their branch of the family were not strong enough to "sustain" a claim of his in addition to Viserys', despite the fact that he had the advantage of his gender.

[Schmendrick]

Did it surprise anyone else that Rhaenyra was not a kick ass woman that killed a few folks The book is Dangerus Women.I mean she did have a dragon. I don't think she killed one person. mostly she hid and held back most of the dragons. The one time she could have really made a difenance she didn't do anything but hold her kid back and then he tried to save the day and gets killed. I mean the dragons where her power and when she could of helped them she did nothing. she could have taken her son on her dragon and freed the other dragons. I guess this is why the iron throne regected her. she was very Cercie in her way of rule.

One could argue that she killed way more than "a few folks." She was the leader of one of the two major factions. By her commands -- and for the sake of her claim -- many thousands died. There are different kinds of "dangerous," after all.

[Florina Laufeyson]

One could argue that she killed way more than "a few folks." She was the leader of one of the two major factions. By her commands -- and for the sake of her claim -- many thousands died. There are different kinds of "dangerous," after all.

Pretty much. Plus, it was under her reign that the smallfolk rose up and basically slaughtered the dragons. Thats dangerous shit right there. The smallfolk were fearful of any dragons attacking, but its telling when its Rhaenyra who fell out of favor. The Realm's Delight is now the Realm's Greatest Fear. One doesnt have to don a sword to be dangerous.

81 pages.

Is it really? I had a digital copy and read it all so quickly, i didnt even think about page length...

[Anath]

Am I the only one who dislikes Helaena? Sure I sympathize with her for the horror she's been through but I was pretty disgusted with her reaction when she was told of her father's death. She just sprouted her pearl of wit and presumably kept eating.

She came across just as cold and unfeeling as her mother.

[dotheknifefight]

It just occurred to me that The Great Council in 101 is another proof that Rhaenys was descended from the senior branch of the family: she was a claimant and her lineage seems to be so strong that her children derived rights of their own despite being Velaryons, just because they were her children.

Daemon, Viserys' younger brother, though, isn't mentioned to have had a claim. Maybe the claims of their branch of the family were not strong enough to "sustain" a claim of his in addition to Viserys', despite the fact that he had the advantage of his gender.

I have taken the information in the novella to mean Rhaenys is from Jaehaerys' first born (something happened in 92 that made the question of succession between Rhaenys or Viserys), Viserys is of a younger child, and Daemon is Viserys' younger brother.