[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Anath]

i so agree with this why didn't the late King make rhaenyra and aegon's children marry because the tension was brewing so early in his marriage, hell his wife even tried to convince him to change his will. One would think he would take a hint that maybe he should do something to decrease the tension between both sides.

Maybe his age was catching up with him. Maybe he's been sick for a long time. He seems to have been a competent ruler, in the beginning at least - settling the problems around his own succession peacefully - and by marriages. The fact that he didn't see the danger is maybe an indication that he was no longer in full possession of his faculties.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am also curious about Laena Velaryon. Her twins were born in Pentos because their father was campaigning there. I wonder whether she made it a custom to follow him in his battles even pregnant.

Well, Daemon wouldn't necessarily have to have been fighting battles when Laena got pregnant. Wasn't it also said he had friends in Pentos? He could have been visiting them with his wife, and something may have delayed their journey back, which would cause Laena to still be in Pentos when the time for birth was near.

Does anyone think Daena (the Defiant) was names for Daemon? And that she in turn named her own son after him?

The name Elaena strikes me as strange - it's so very similar to Helaena. Why would Aegon want to name his daughter after her?

Baelor could have been named both for Baela (daughter of Daemon) and Baelon (if it was indeed the case that Baelon was the father of Viserys I and Daemon, which would have made him Aegons greatgrand father)?

And Baela and Rhaena, Laena's daughters, were twins right?

[Daenyra]

That makes two of us. If she was simple, that was another reason for them to get rid of her. The Dragonsbane would not want to run the risk of siring heirs with a lackwit.

I am quite intrigued by his children's names. Daeron - that's quite surprising in itself. Baelor, like Baela. Rhaena - doesn't leave much to the imagination. I wonder what happened to Daemon's girls. They seem to have stayed firmly in the black camp. Maybe Cosima is right and one of them did marry Viserys. Or maybe she even became Aegon's second queen since the story grows in telling and they both have Velaryon blood.

All very interesting possibilities. Dragonbane honouring his uncle Daeron the Daring. The Young Dragon turned out to be even more daring than him.

Thanks, Ran.

For some reason Aegon III (and Amok's brilliant portrait of him) gives me the creeps. He looks like the silent, vindictive type, who would bind his time and poison you slowly or smother you with a pillow.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Dragonlore we have learnt (with apologies for pointing out the obvious)

Please add to this list if I have omitted something

1. Dragons hatch naturally from eggs, although not predictably

2. None of the dragons in the story change their sex, nor is there any suggestion that they are able to do so.

3. The mating ritual of a dragons is typically aerial

4. Dragons are natural cannibals, (although they appear to have a range in personality)

5. Dragons are more willing to accept riders and commands when they are full of belly

6. Dragonstone might well have one or more dragon egg still hidden on it

7. Dragons appear to have a semi-wargish bond with humans-

8. The dragons of Westeros (all of whom are descended from Vhagar, Meraxes and Balerion) do not appear to show any signs of inbreeding or abnormality

9. It is possible that dragons that belong to lovers, or spouses, develop a special bond for each other

10. Once dragons have accepted one rider, they will not bear another

11. Dragons are ridden while wearing riding leathers

12. Dragons wear saddles and there are four short chains to secure the rider onto the dragon

13. Dragons are typically ridden with a steel tipped whip

14. Dragons have a quasi-wargish bond with their human riders-

15. The best way to bond with a dragon is to carry it always and be in its presence from birth, so dragons might have some sentience while in the egg

16. That only Targaryens (or those with Valyrian blood) can bond with dragons seems an unquestioned assumption but the probability from the evidence (Nettles, Hard Hugh, Ulf the white, Addam of Hull) is those with non Targaryen blood can ride dragons.

17. Dragons gain size and experience as they grew older, but lose speed.

18. The word Queen does not denote egg layer as previously thought since Syrax lays eggs but is a She-Dragon.

To add to point 10. Once a dragon has accepted a rider, it will not bear another, until their rider has died. Only then, might they accept a new rider.

[Austrailian_Idiot]

where can I find full copy of this novella please anyone?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

where can I find full copy of this novella please anyone?

The Princess and the Queen can be found in the anthology Dangerous Women. Online you can by the kindle version. The book comes out in 2 days at most places.

[PrimeRhaegar]

Maybe his age was catching up with him. Maybe he's been sick for a long time. He seems to have been a competent ruler, in the beginning at least - settling the problems around his own succession peacefully - and by marriages. The fact that he didn't see the danger is maybe an indication that he was no longer in full possession of his faculties.

this could true but he was so hard lined that rhaenyra should take over shocked he didn't make it less tense for her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

this could true but he was so hard lined that rhaenyra should take over shocked he didn't make it less tense for her.

Perhaps he believed Rhaenyra's rule had been secured by marrying her to his brother Daemon. He might not have believed Alicent would dare to go against Daemon. And seeing as Aegon himself did not seem to have been very interested in ruling, he might have taken that as a blessing as well, not thinking Alicent could talk the boy into ruling.

[Anath]

this could true but he was so hard lined that rhaenyra should take over shocked he didn't make it less tense for her.

She was clearly shocked by the result. Since we don't have her own PoV, we don't know what she thought about her father's actions or inactions. But the situation speaks clearly for itself: the Dragonstone folks were totally unprepared that she might find her claim questioned. Meaning - they clearly believed that someone - Viserys, who else - had the things under control.

[Gaston de Foix]

She was clearly shocked by the result. Since we don't have her own PoV, we don't know what she thought about her father's actions or inactions. But the situation speaks clearly for itself: the Dragonstone folks were totally unprepared that she might find her claim questioned. Meaning - they clearly believed that someone - Viserys, who else - had the things under control.

I think any discussion of Viserys' responsibility has to take into account that not only was there was there a war of succession, which he never foresaw, but that Rhaenyra, much like the Empress Matilda, was the rightful heir but a poor Queen for the brief period of her rule. So his choice of heir was somewhat suspect.

I think also, if Viserys' intended Rhaenyra to succeed him, he ought to have more effectively granted her the levers of power in King's Landing, rather than letting her be isolated on Dragonstone.

[Gaston de Foix]

Incidentally, Jace Velaryon seems deserve a place on the list of outstanding Princes of Dragonstone who never made it to the Iron Throne, together with Rhaegar and Baelor Breakspear. Can anyone else think of other Princes of Dragonstone who would have made outstanding Kings if they hadn't died along the way?

[Anath]

I think any discussion of Viserys' responsibility has to take into account that not only was there was there a war of succession, which he never foresaw, but that Rhaenyra, much like the Empress Matilda, was the rightful heir but a poor Queen for the brief period of her rule. So his choice of heir was somewhat suspect.

I think also, if Viserys' intended Rhaenyra to succeed him, he ought to have more effectively granted her the levers of power in King's Landing, rather than letting her be isolated on Dragonstone.

Well, it wasn't as if the alternative proved a better king. His choice of heir would have been more suspect if Aegon was stellar which he wasn't. And Aemond was beyond description. Now, if Viserys could have skipped a few more candidates and settled on Daeron, that might be somewhat different.

I absolutely agree about Rhaenyra's isolation.

[The Lady Lannister]

Well, Rhaenyra was isolated in Dragonstone, because in the last few months of the pregnancy highborn women used to go into "confinement". Also we do not know what a good queen she would have been if seh acsended the Iron Throne without a fight and she would not have gone through so much trauma.

If Daemon spent considerable time in Pentos (and Ser Criston was right about his nature), Illyrio's wife does not have to be Blackfyre or at least there would be plenty of dragonseeds for the Blackfyres to marry.

[Gaston de Foix]

Well, Rhaenyra was isolated in Dragonstone, because in the last few months of the pregnancy highborn women used to go into "confinement". Also we do not know what a good queen she would have been if seh acsended the Iron Throne without a fight and she would not have gone through so much trauma.

This is a fair point and was in the back of my mind, although if you read GRRM's descriptions to Amok of Rhaenyra's nature (which her entry in the wiki page is mostly based on ) it does lend doubt to the supposition that she would otherwise have been a good Queen. Without doubt she would have been better than she was...

as for Aegon's nature, that too is a fair point. He hardly made the best of Kings. However, perhaps the wiser course for Viserys would have been not to have any children with his Hightower bride?

[Winter's Knight]

To add to point 10. Once a dragon has accepted a rider, it will not bear another, until their rider has died. Only then, might they accept a new rider.

Dragonfire grows hotter with age.

[Anath]

This is a fair point and was in the back of my mind, although if you read GRRM's descriptions to Amok of Rhaenyra's nature (which her entry in the wiki page is mostly based on ) it does lend doubt to the supposition that she would otherwise have been a good Queen. Without doubt she would have been better than she was...

as for Aegon's nature, that too is a fair point. He hardly made the best of Kings. However, perhaps the wiser course for Viserys would have been not to have any children with his Hightower bride?

In fact, I don't see the Rhaenyra in the novella as the Rhaenyra from the description. Sure, she's arrogant, stubborn, quick to anger but not as much as the description led me to believe. Those were not her most defining characteristics. She was not stranger to good judgment and advice. After all, she didn't send her army to ravage KL (or try to) even in her anger over Aegon's betrayal and her baby's death. And later, she came across as a deeply traumatised person.

I read somewhere that the notions about Rhaenyra's temper were written much later and her flaws greatly embellished for educational purposes. Now that I've read both the descriptionand novella, I think it was indeed the case.

Even her appearance is different! In the Amoka description, she was pampered and pudgy; in the novella, she was the Shiera Seastar of her time but her pregnancies took their toll.

[RumHam]

Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King’s Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men.

Nice, someone in Westeros actually acknowledging the Green Men and talking to them.

[The hairy bear]

Hairy Bear,

Is that indicated in the text somewhere?

Oups. Not really. Daemon may have been part of the Small Council at some point...

Undoubtly he's got an interesting past.

None of the dragons in the story change their sex, nor is there any suggestion that they are able to do so.

I don't know if it counts as "suggestions", but the sex of the dragon hatchlings are not specified, and most names seem gender neutral (which is what you'd name dragons at birth if their sex developed afterwards). Also, it's only me or Tessarion seems like a male name?

That only Targaryens (or those with Valyrian blood) can bond with dragons seems an unquestioned assumption but the probability from the evidence (Nettles, Hard Hugh, Ulf the white, Addam of Hull) is those with non – Targaryen blood can ride dragons.

I'm not sure. The text explains that many people in Dragonstone has Targaryen blood, and at least some of those you mention have Valyrian traits. It's worth mentioning that none of the ones with definitely no Valyrian blood that tried to tame a dragon (Steffon Darklyn, and some others) burned alive.

Does anyone think Daena (the Defiant) was named for Daemon? And that she in turn named her own son after him

We can be assured that she named his son for Daemon. He was her grandfather, and the father's.

And Baela and Rhaena, Laena's daughters, were twins right?

Yes. Lot's of twins around, at this time an age: Baela and Rhaena, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, apparently Jason and Tyland,....

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think any discussion of Viserys' responsibility has to take into account that not only was there was there a war of succession, which he never foresaw, but that Rhaenyra, much like the Empress Matilda, was the rightful heir but a poor Queen for the brief period of her rule. So his choice of heir was somewhat suspect.

I think also, if Viserys' intended Rhaenyra to succeed him, he ought to have more effectively granted her the levers of power in King's Landing, rather than letting her be isolated on Dragonstone.

Well, it was normal for the heir to the Iron Throne to have Dragonstone as his/her seat. So Rhaenyra spending time there would not have to be that strange.

Also, as has been stated above, by The Lady Lannister, Rhaenyra was in the latest stage of her pregnancy. It would be only normal to spend those few months that are already hard on Rhaenyra emotionally in relative silence, away from the busy capitol.

Incidentally, Jace Velaryon seems deserve a place on the list of outstanding Princes of Dragonstone who never made it to the Iron Throne, together with Rhaegar and Baelor Breakspear. Can anyone else think of other Princes of Dragonstone who would have made outstanding Kings if they hadn't died along the way?

Prince Valarr, Baelor Breakspears son, who became the heir apparent to the throne after Baelor died. Can't really say if he would have made an outstanding King, but he most certainy was Prince of Dragonstone at one point, however so shortly.

Dragonfire grows hotter with age.

Really? That's cool! :D

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I read it on Friday and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think Daemon was my favourite character.

There's a strange feeling when a dragon dies. On the one hand, they're terrible weapons of mass destruction and symbols of oppression, but on the other hand, they're rare, magnificent and often, like in the case of Sunfyre, beautiful creatures that are about to go extinct. I always felt a twinge of sadness every time one of them died.

Dragonlore we have learnt (with apologies for pointing out the obvious)

Please add to this list if I have omitted something…

1. Dragons hatch naturally from eggs, although not predictably

2. None of the dragons in the story change their sex, nor is there any suggestion that they are able to do so.

3. The mating ritual of a dragons is typically aerial

4. Dragons are natural cannibals, (although they appear to have a range in personality)

5. Dragons are more willing to accept riders and commands when they are full of belly

6. Dragonstone might well have one or more dragon egg still hidden on it

7. Dragons appear to have a semi-wargish bond with humans-

8. The dragons of Westeros (all of whom are descended from Vhagar, Meraxes and Balerion) do not appear to show any signs of inbreeding or abnormality

9. It is possible that dragons that belong to lovers, or spouses, develop a special bond for each other

10. Once dragons have accepted one rider, they will not bear another

11. Dragons are ridden while wearing riding leathers

12. Dragons wear saddles and there are four short chains to secure the rider onto the dragon

13. Dragons are typically ridden with a steel tipped whip

14. Dragons have a quasi-wargish bond with their human riders-

15. The best way to bond with a dragon is to carry it always and be in its presence from birth, so dragons might have some sentience while in the egg

16. That only Targaryens (or those with Valyrian blood) can bond with dragons seems an unquestioned assumption but the probability from the evidence (Nettles, Hard Hugh, Ulf the white, Addam of Hull) is those with non – Targaryen blood can ride dragons.

17. Dragons gain size and experience as they grew older, but lose speed.

18. The word ‘Queen’ does not denote ‘egg layer’ as previously thought since Syrax lays eggs but is a She-Dragon.

Also add that their scales grow more fireproof as they grow older and also their fire becomes hotter.