Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

Basically, father would choose, but daughter always had the right to say a word. We see how Lynesse Hightower is married, entire Arianne proposals, etc.

Thanks for bringing in the text about Tyrion liking the notion of being in Winterfell, that is much appreciated.

If your argument were true about marriages, than Lysa wouldn't have had to wed Jon Arryn, Ned wouldn't have had to wed Cat, Cersei wouldn't have had to wed Robert (and she definitely wouldn't have had to to be afraid to wed all the suitors Tywin threw out as options).

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

Thanks for bringing in the text about Tyrion liking the notion of being in Winterfell, that is much appreciated.

If your argument were true about marriages, than Lysa wouldn't have had to wed Jon Arryn, Ned wouldn't have had to wed Cat, Cersei wouldn't have had to wed Robert (and she definitely wouldn't have had to to be afraid to wed all the suitors Tywin threw out as options).

not to mention all of poor walder frey's wives...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Being as the OP of the thread asked about Sansa's life expectancy, I thought I'd try to tackle that notion. Should she not make it, I'm betting that there will be a Sainted Sansa statue placed next Baelor the Blessed. Afterall, it is time that repressed little bundle was made to endure the company of a woman, as beautiful and as utterably unflawed a woman as most of the posts around here seem to suggest.

Just like Ned, let's hope there's a mason familiar with her appearance, just incase.

ETA: Although, for my part, I don't think we have to worry about finding a stone mason til the last book, if ever. I guess that would answer whether I think she'd be the next to die. Still, couldn't hurt to be prepared and make room at the Great Sept.

[Mladen]

Thanks for bringing in the text about Tyrion liking the notion of being in Winterfell, that is much appreciated.

If your argument were true about marriages, than Lysa wouldn't have had to wed Jon Arryn, Ned wouldn't have had to wed Cat, Cersei wouldn't have had to wed Robert (and she definitely wouldn't have had to to be afraid to wed all the suitors Tywin threw out as options).

The level of duress varies, but in none of those cases you mentioned, the choice is completely taken. Sansa was taken to the altar under the death threat. Lysa, Ned, Cersei, all of them could have easily say no. Ned chose his marriage, even Catelyn said that he didn't have to, but he did. Lysa and Cersei would possibly been disinherited or something similar, but they would be alive. Cersei left no room for misunderstanding. She was rather clear. Sansa had no choice. Tyrion did. As was said to him, he could have married for someone else, but when his father offered him other brides, he accepted Sansa. Tyrion could have let Lancel to marry Sansa, as was proposed, or wait for some Genna's son, but the allure of becoming Lord of half the Kingdom was that powerful.

[brashcandy]

Being as the OP of the thread asked about Sansa's life expectancy, I thought I'd try to tackle that notion. Should she not make it, I'm betting that there will be a Sainted Sansa statue placed next Baelor the Blessed. Afterall, it is time that repressed little bundle was made to endure the company of a woman, as beautiful and as utterably unflawed a woman as most of the posts around here seem to suggest.

:rolleyes: Considering Sansa's interest in rather earthly pleasures and pursuits (sex, family, children) I doubt Baelor would find her presence very comforting. And when you recall what she told Dontos in ACOK, he might find it altogether a bit too heated:

When Sansa had first beheld the Great Sept with its marble walls and seven crystal towers, she’d thought it was the most beautiful building in the world, but that had been before Joffrey beheaded her father on its steps. “I want it burned.”

[Lady Fevre Dream]

:rolleyes: Considering Sansa's interest in rather earthly pleasures and pursuits (sex, family, children) I doubt Baelor would find her presence very comforting. And when you recall what she told Dontos in ACOK, he might find it altogether a bit too heated:

Hey KL and the Sept might perish in dragonfire, Saint Sansa might have the pedestal to herself, ya never know.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

Hey KL and the Sept might perish in dragonfire, Saint Sansa might have the pedestal to herself, ya never know.

Well here's hoping that she does ACTUALLY die soon and can have a statue made...I really hope she is the next Stark and the actual next person that dies in the WOW although it doesn't seem likely since she has a POV...But, I still have my fingers crossed that she's the next Stark at least to die, and hopefully at the end of this book so we don't have her at the end of the 7th.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Well here's hoping that she does ACTUALLY die soon and can have a statue made...I really hope she is the next Stark and the actual next person that dies in the WOW although it doesn't seem likely since she has a POV...But, I still have my fingers crossed that she's the next Stark at least to die, and hopefully at the end of this book so we don't have her at the end of the 7th.

I do think you might be disappointed, at least for awhile, if only for the fact that as of now she's the only POV in The Vale giving us a peek at many characters. There is a part of me that thinks the Starks have had enough real and supposed deaths but this series has taught me not to count my Starks before they've made it to THE END, LOL

I, personally, don't have a problem with Sansa. In the beginning I found her to be very naive and was frustrated at how long it's taken her to shake some of it, but I also think in some ways she's the most 'normal' character in the books, main POV character. I don't think she'll be all knowing and powerful, as in LittleFinger the Second, but I do think she won't be such a pushover either. I'd like to see her come through the story and find that happiness she's always dreamed of for herself, she herself doesn't dream of being the second coming of LF, I'm not sure why anyone would want her to be. She may just be a bit wiser by the end, if she makes it, and therefore.........if the happiness should come, it should have a chance of being based in reality.

Still, I begrudge no one their dreams either, and if you should get your wish.........I expect heads exploding all over the internet and I'm twisted enough to get a giggle out of it, can't help it. :devil:

[mormont]

I do not think Sansa will die but end up in a kind of exile from the north. People will see her as a traitor for ratting on her father and for the situation about lying about what happend with arya and joff in AGOT.

I strongly doubt it.

The former, virtually nobody knows about. I doubt they would care much if they did. They would, quite rightly, see it as what it was: a naive action by a young child who did not and could not understand what she was doing, because she didn't have all the facts.

The latter is not even what actually happened. Sansa told no lies about 'what happened with Arya and Joff' - she said she couldn't remember it. This may not even be untrue: at worst, it was an evasion. And again, no reasonable person would seriously hold it against her. She was a girl of 12, asked to stand in public before the royal court and call the Crown Prince, her husband-to-be, a liar in front of his parents and the lords who would one day be his subjects. Not surprisingly, she looks for a way out. Most adults, let alone girls of Sansa's age, would have done the same. Arya is too young, too naive and too distressed to understand the gravity of what is going on: Sansa is not.

I doubt one Northman in ten would care about these relatively trivial past sins, next to Sansa's indisputable Stark blood. She'd be extremely welcome in the North: don't doubt it.

[Rara Avis]

Ned definitely consented to wed Cat. He wasn't in love with her, but it's completely different. Nobody could have try to force him either, seeing how his father was dead at this point I believe. He married her to get support of Riverlands, great match for him no matter how you look.

Jaime flat out refused to marry Margaery, he said No to Tywin who was very invested in him marrying someone. Tywin could just fume. Nobody was going to drag Tyrion to the alter at swordpoint, beat the crap out of him until he agrees. It was an offer, which he reluctantly agreed on.

In Westerosi morals, a woman's duty is to obey her father, but there is absolutely no moral duty for Sansa to obey people who killed her father.

How disgusting is it that a young girl is being dragged at the fear of death/physical abuse to be tied for life to a man who disgust her and raped by him, and she's criticized because she's not fucking nice about it? Arya would probably try to stab Tyrion, unless she already had all fight beaten out of her a-la trip to harrenhall.

[Darksnider05]

Do you doubt that Tywin had others he could call on to marry Sansa?

[Rara Avis]

So you should do an evil thing because someone else would do it instead of you? Do you think Walder Frey didn't have other sons who would agree to carry out Red Wedding? Or Lannisters didn't have other men who could cut down Mika? Other heartless knight who could burn down Riverlands?

Would you go to brothel filled with "white slaves", you know, women who are threatened with death and forcibly hooked on drugs, and have sex with them because surely there will be other customers anyway? Profit from child porn because, without shadow of doubt, there is no shortage of people willing to work in this industry, so, hey, why not you?

What you should do when presented with an offer to do something evil is to refuse it and hope others will too. It will be probably in vain, but if everyone agrees based on this bizarre "someone else would do it anyhow" logic evil would triumph in 100% cases.

Besides, while Sansa would be miserable married to other Lannister, finding her husband physically repulsive didn't help. A person without their nose is quite a hideous sight. It's not Tyrion's fault but it's not Sansa's fault either. She could be happier being married to some minor Lannister she doesn't know, less involved with main family, someone who isn't terribly ugly.

Even Lancel proved to be quite harmless with Gatehouse Amy.

It would be different if Tyrion agreed to the marriage planning all the while not to consummate it and help her get away. But that was not the plan.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

Ned definitely consented to wed Cat. He wasn't in love with her, but it's completely different. Nobody could have try to force him either, seeing how his father was dead at this point I believe. He married her to get support of Riverlands, great match for him no matter how you look.

Jaime flat out refused to marry Margaery, he said No to Tywin who was very invested in him marrying someone. Tywin could just fume. Nobody was going to drag Tyrion to the alter at swordpoint, beat the crap out of him until he agrees. It was an offer, which he reluctantly agreed on.

In Westerosi morals, a woman's duty is to obey her father, but there is absolutely no moral duty for Sansa to obey people who killed her father.

How disgusting is it that a young girl is being dragged at the fear of death/physical abuse to be tied for life to a man who disgust her and raped by him, and she's criticized because she's not fucking nice about it? Arya would probably try to stab Tyrion, unless she already had all fight beaten out of her a-la trip to harrenhall.

I thought the main opt out Jamie had in saying no was that he was Commander of the Kingsguard now, so really the notion of Tywin suggesting that Jamie could be "un" KG and then marry Margery was a bit of a stretch for reality...I kind of just read that option from Tywin being just old rage coming up again aimed at Jamie for taking the KG in the first place, since Tywin was so against it.

TYou're right though that Ned prolly wasn't the strongest example...he's obviously a character that would sacrifice what he really wanted (Ashara Dayne?) to do the honorable thing and marry Cat since his brother died...

The main point of my first argument was that it wasn't like Tyrion was STOKED to be marrying Sansa and was rushing at the idea...therefore, I felt it was kind of lame for Sansa to be so mean to him and not bend down to let him put the cloak on thus embarrassing him...I know she hates Lannisters, but throughout all of the stories Tyrion is the one that is always super nice to her, rescues her from Joff at times, and so I thought it was just a little lame...Plus, that comment was just in response to an earlier debate about how Arya and Sansa were so different...

[mormont]

So, let me get this straight...

Sansa gets up one morning during her ongoing imprisonment by the family she hates to find that, without anyone even bothering to tell her about it, they're literally going to force her into a sham marriage, one where her consent is so supremely, completely irrelevant that nobody even makes the effort to tell her she has no choice: she is literally treated like an object, except when people threaten her with violence. Her bridegroom-to-be is the man who was her jailer (albeit a kindlier one than Cersei) for most of ACOK. Her hopes of freedom have been dashed, her personal integrity violated, she's verbally abused and marched to the altar - and this is her wedding day.

Her one act of defiance, her one token stand against this horrific abuse, is to refuse to kneel for Tyrion. And the person in this scenario we're supposed to feel sorry for is poor old Tyrion, while the one we're supposed to criticise is Sansa?

Anyone who can say that with a straight face has their priorities completely backward.

[Mladen]

I thought the main opt out Jamie had in saying no was that he was Commander of the Kingsguard now, so really the notion of Tywin suggesting that Jamie could be "un" KG and then marry Margery was a bit of a stretch for reality...I kind of just read that option from Tywin being just old rage coming up again aimed at Jamie for taking the KG in the first place, since Tywin was so against it.

Then use a previous possible marriage arrangement between Lysa and Jaime, when he flat out denied to marry her. Children had a word in what's coming to them through the marriage.

The main point of my first argument was that it wasn't like Tyrion was STOKED to be marrying Sansa and was rushing at the idea...therefore, I felt it was kind of lame for Sansa to be so mean to him and not bend down to let him put the cloak on thus embarrassing him...I know she hates Lannisters, but throughout all of the stories Tyrion is the one that is always super nice to her, rescues her from Joff at times, and so I thought it was just a little lame...Plus, that comment was just in response to an earlier debate about how Arya and Sansa were so different...

Yes, at first, Tyrion wasn't excited, but when his father told him what he was getting, plus the subtle threat of marrying Lollys, he was convinced. He also admitted to himself that he lusts for her. As for Sansa, he was part of that deception just like the rest of them. He told her so: "I couldn't come to you for state reasons" moments before the wedding. So, if he didn't respect her, why should she? In her eyes, he was an enemy. A kinder one, perhaps, but still an enemy. BTW, being kinder than Joffrey is like being dryer than ocean. It wasn't lame, as much as it established who Sansa is. That moment of defiance, no matter how subtle it is, was very important for her. And her action moves her closer to Arya on Starkness scale. Arya would scream, try to run or do something impulsive, Sansa resisted, by showing her husband that she will never be his wife in her heart.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So, let me get this straight...

Sansa gets up one morning during her ongoing imprisonment by the family she hates to find that, without anyone even bothering to tell her about it, they're literally going to force her into a sham marriage, one where her consent is so supremely, completely irrelevant that nobody even makes the effort to tell her she has no choice: she is literally treated like an object, except when people threaten her with violence. Her bridegroom-to-be is the man who was her jailer (albeit a kindlier one than Cersei) for most of ACOK. Her hopes of freedom have been dashed, her personal integrity violated, she's verbally abused and marched to the altar - and this is her wedding day.

Her one act of defiance, her one token stand against this horrific abuse, is to refuse to kneel for Tyrion. And the person in this scenario we're supposed to feel sorry for is poor old Tyrion, while the one we're supposed to criticise is Sansa?

Anyone who can say that with a straight face has their priorities completely backward.

If anything, I think Tyrion as the supposed older, smarter, more mature person should have eventually let go of that bone of contention, even in his own mind. He of all people should have understood. I get the feeling that if Tyrion himself had come to that conclusion, perhaps some fans might, too. It was one act Sansa allowed herself, I don't see why after much contemplation Tyrion himself doesn't realize that. Then again, I realize how that one act hit lots of Tyrion's deepest buttons, still.....I think he should have in his own mind let it go, and wonder if perhaps someday he'll come to that conclusion. Tyrion seemed to be coming out a dark passage of the soul in ADWD and maybe if the two characters to make it to another meeting, perhaps he will.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

Then use a previous possible marriage arrangement between Lysa and Jaime, when he flat out denied to marry her. Children had a word in what's coming to them through the marriage.

Yes, at first, Tyrion wasn't excited, but when his father told him what he was getting, plus the subtle threat of marrying Lollys, he was convinced. He also admitted to himself that he lusts for her. As for Sansa, he was part of that deception just like the rest of them. He told her so: "I couldn't come to you for state reasons" moments before the wedding. So, if he didn't respect her, why should she? In her eyes, he was an enemy. A kinder one, perhaps, but still an enemy. BTW, being kinder than Joffrey is like being dryer than ocean. It wasn't lame, as much as it established who Sansa is. That moment of defiance, no matter how subtle it is, was very important for her. And her action moves her closer to Arya on Starkness scale. Arya would scream, try to run or do something impulsive, Sansa resisted, by showing her husband that she will never be his wife in her heart.

Ha, you just can't seem to accept that Arya is a more cool, fun, and better character than Sansa!

And Jaime WAS going to marry Lysa but he joined the KG before he had to so he could avoid ever being forced to marry anyone so he could stay true to Cersei.

If what you're saying is true, than why would any Lord make a marriage pact if one party could just end up telling their parents no? There's no way that Arya would consent to marry a Frey, and the fact that Robb broke his marriage pact is the reason for the RW.

If what you're saying is true, why didn't Sansa just say no than??? "Hey Sansa, sorry, you have to marry your enemy because I said so." "Umm, I'd rather not, so I'm going to say no." "Sorry guys, Sansa didn't like that match and said no, so we're going to have to try a new plan."

[Light a wight tonight]

Ha, you just can't seem to accept that Arya is a more cool, fun, and better character than Sansa!

And Jaime WAS going to marry Lysa but he joined the KG before he had to so he could avoid ever being forced to marry anyone so he could stay true to Cersei.

If what you're saying is true, than why would any Lord make a marriage pact if one party could just end up telling their parents no? There's no way that Arya would consent to marry a Frey, and the fact that Robb broke his marriage pact is the reason for the RW.

If what you're saying is true, why didn't Sansa just say no than??? "Hey Sansa, sorry, you have to marry your enemy because I said so." "Umm, I'd rather not, so I'm going to say no." "Sorry guys, Sansa didn't like that match and said no, so we're going to have to try a new plan."

You seem to have a few things wrong. Jaime didn't voluntarily join the KG, for starters. Doing so cut him off from being Twyin's heir and Lord of Casterly Rock. This was something cooked up between Aerys and Cersei. It benefited Aerys by depriving Tywin of his preferred heir and Cersei by assuring that Jaime remained true to her, and more importantly under her control.

Sansa was in no position to refuse the match with Tyrion. She was physically forced to marry him. If she'd refused she would have been beaten until she agreed. Cersei tells her so pretty specifically. She was basically a prisoner or hostage and had no say in the matter, which is a completely different case from Jaime's.

[Mladen]

Ha, you just can't seem to accept that Arya is a more cool, fun, and better character than Sansa!

Hey, I like Arya too, and I could agree that her storyline has more comical elements, in terms of who is better character, in my book, sisters are equal.

And Jaime WAS going to marry Lysa but he joined the KG before he had to so he could avoid ever being forced to marry anyone so he could stay true to Cersei.

There was never official engagement, only some conversations between Hoster and Tywin. And, btw, Jaime enrolling KG showed that kids could have said NO, which was what I have claimed.

If what you're saying is true, than why would any Lord make a marriage pact if one party could just end up telling their parents no? There's no way that Arya would consent to marry a Frey, and the fact that Robb broke his marriage pact is the reason for the RW.

Marriage is a sensitive issue. Parents wanted them to work, because what is their purpose if the marriage seems to be disaster? That is why there was always some sort of compatibility in that? Doran played the opposite with Arianne, knowing if he had offered her Edmure or Willas, she would have accepted. Even Arya was engaged with someone close to her age, and someone probably compatible...

If what you're saying is true, why didn't Sansa just say no than??? "Hey Sansa, sorry, you have to marry your enemy because I said so." "Umm, I'd rather not, so I'm going to say no." "Sorry guys, Sansa didn't like that match and said no, so we're going to have to try a new plan."

Have you actually read ASOS? She said "No. You can't make me" and Cersei told her she actually can, that they will drag her, beat her if necessary, but at the end she will be married. Why do you think only Lannisters attended the ceremony? Because Tywin knew that if Sansa do something, it will remain in the close family circle. And that is what made this marriage unlike any other. It was forced upon Sansa.

[Darth Visenya]

Hopefully not, she doesn't deserve it.