Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[Arya kiddin']

Sansa fought for her freedom too. Her chains were much harder than Arya's, and she actively fought for her freedom the only possible way she could have. Saying that Sansa was passive and Arya active about their destinies, is, IMO, completely wrong. Sansa may not fought her way out, but she conquered her fears, trusted Dontos, and with him organized her escape.

The argument was about Arya, not Sansa. I'm saying Arya was not passive to her imprisonment. I too would disagree with anyone who says Sansa was passive. Whether less so or more than Arya is a matter of personal opinion though. It is hard to compare when they were in completely different situations. So I'd refrain from commenting on "who fought harder".

[Mladen]

The argument was about Arya, not Sansa. I'm saying Arya was not passive to her imprisonment. I too would disagree with anyone who says Sansa was passive. Whether less so or more than Arya is a matter of personal opinion though. It is hard to compare when they were in completely different situations. So I'd refrain from commenting on "who fought harder".

I can agree with Sansa/Arya line. But, Arya was, as mormont said, dragged across the Riverlands without her deciding the course. She was captured, yes, and as a captive we have to address her a level of passivity, although not quite sure how much. Also, post-RW Arya is relatively passive due to emotional shock she had lived. Arya is a proactive kid that doesn't think quite through her actions sometimes, but there were also a passivity in her story.

[Arya kiddin']

I can agree with Sansa/Arya line. But, Arya was, as mormont said, dragged across the Riverlands without her deciding the course. She was captured, yes, and as a captive we have to address her a level of passivity, although not quite sure how much. Also, post-RW Arya is relatively passive due to emotional shock she had lived. Arya is a proactive kid that doesn't think quite through her actions sometimes, but there were also a passivity in her story.

Of course and I can argue the same for Sansa too. Their character arcs are not overly different, you see. In your own words:

But, Arya Sansa was, as mormont said, dragged across the Riverlands kept a captive in King's Landing without her deciding the course. She was captured, yes, and as a captive we have to address her a level of passivity, although not quite sure how much. Also, post-RW Ned's execution Arya Sansa is relatively passive due to emotional shock she had lived. Arya is a proactive kid that doesn't think quite through her actions sometimes, but there were also a passivity in her story. Sansa's story has been full of passive elements. She has let herself be dragged along and manipulated too long.

[Mladen]

Of course and I can argue the same for Sansa too. Their character arcs are not overly different, you see. In your own words:

But, Arya Sansa was, as mormont said, dragged across the Riverlands kept a captive in King's Landing without her deciding the course. She was captured, yes, and as a captive we have to address her a level of passivity, although not quite sure how much. Also, post-RW Ned's execution Arya Sansa is relatively passive due to emotional shock she had lived. Arya is a proactive kid that doesn't think quite through her actions sometimes, but there were also a passivity in her story. Sansa's story has been full of passive elements. She has let herself be dragged along and manipulated too long.

OK, I am not arguing here that Sansa was some role model of proactive behavior. I am simply rejecting the notion of zero sum game where Arya is proactive and Sansa passive. I don't actually consider sisters much different. Their differences are so shallow, but when you dig deep, even with different personalities, you can find a lot of the other one in both girls...

[Arya kiddin']

 

OK, I am not arguing here that Sansa was some role model of proactive behavior. I am simply rejecting the notion of zero sum game where Arya is proactive and Sansa passive. I don't actually consider sisters much different. Their differences are so shallow, but when you dig deep, even with different personalities, you can find a lot of the other one in both girls...

I agree completely. :)

[Elaena Targaryen]

Arya escapes from Sandor because Sandor was wounded in the fight with Gregor's men. The point is that her escape is not through any action of her own, but pure happenstance: though she does become proactive once she is freed.

Point taken and thank you for elaborating. :)

I have never really given this that much thought before though I do agree with Arya kiddin here that Arya and the Hound were traveling together as mutually consenting companions by this point, which I feel this rapport may have even started slowly developing right away with truly starting after the Red Wedding.

In addition I feel, when Arya finally 'escaped' the Hound when he was wounded, that she did not truly wish to leave him, yet since he appeared fatally wounded there was not much of a choice. Arya joining the fight at the inn to help save the Hound instead of running out the door shows that among other things.

The argument was about Arya, not Sansa. I'm saying Arya was not passive to her imprisonment.

I'm not trying to speak for mormont here though I will futher explain my meaning about Arya's passivity.

I do feel Arya has behaved passive during her captivity since the Mountain's men grabbed her until maybe after the Hound, however I would need to give this more thought to be sure on the timeline.

The passivity, I feel, has always been a conscience choice to serve Arya's need of safety at the time. Think about it, you just know Arya was appalled during the Tickler's torturing sessions and most likely wanted to defend the prisoners, despite that it was necessary for Arya to remain passive to survive that horror show. Same thing during her time at Harrenhal, there may have been times where Arya was 'active' all the same there were times when she was required to behave 'passive' if she wanted to survive.

[Ivezho]

No. If anything, I believe Sansa might be one of the last standing among everyone. She may not be exactly strong or fierce in battle, but she knows how to pretend and play the Game.

[Arya kiddin']

Point taken and thank you for elaborating. :)

I have never really given this that much thought before though I do agree with Arya kiddin here that Arya and the Hound were traveling together as mutually consenting companions by this point, which I feel this rapport may have even started slowly developing right away with truly starting after the Red Wedding.

In addition I feel, when Arya finally 'escaped' the Hound when he was wounded, that she did not truly wish to leave him, yet since he appeared fatally wounded there was not much of a choice. Arya joining the fight at the inn to help save the Hound instead of running out the door shows that among other things.

I'm not trying to speak for mormont here though I will futher explain my meaning about Arya's passivity.

I do feel Arya has behaved passive during her captivity since the Mountain's men grabbed her until maybe after the Hound, however I would need to give this more thought to be sure on the timeline.

The passivity, I feel, has always been a conscience choice to serve Arya's need of safety at the time. Think about it, you just know Arya was appalled during the Tickler's torturing sessions and most likely wanted to defend the prisoners, despite that it was necessary for Arya to remain passive to survive that horror show. Same thing during her time at Harrenhal, there may have been times where Arya was 'active' all the same there were times when she was required to behave 'passive' if she wanted to survive.

Yes I agree with what you've said here Elaena. The passivity on those particular times was a necessity for survival. But I still think even the adjective "passive" when used in reference to Arya pretty much insults the character; seeing the lengths to which she went to escape free from Harrenhal, and later from BWB and Hound. That desire for freedom and going back home was always within her. So even if there were some dark periods in between, she was always planning to be on her way back home. And here I tell my opinion - more so than Sansa.

[The Sleeper]

I'm not sure the girls are as different as you think. Arya's 'honesty' in AGOT stems just as much being impulsive, not to mention too young and naive to understand the consequences of her actions, as it does from some innate sense of honesty and 'rightness'. Those latter qualities haven't always been much on show since: this is a girl who's learned to lie and kill when she has to, and shows little remorse for either.

As for 'passivity', Arya spent a chunk of ACOK and most of ASOS literally being dragged around Westeros by other people and is finally freed essentially through luck, not by any action of her own.

You can relegate everything to chance, if you push it far enough. There are circumstances that are beyoond anyone's control and form the setting within which a person acts. These are always down to chance, of course. Also, the fact that she failed does not negate the fact that she tried to explore her options, take advantage of any leeway she had and jump on opportunities as they appeared. And this along with the breaks she got and help she had, played their part in her being alive and free. Yoren couldn't have gotten her out if she hadn't kept herself fed and hidden in King's Landing, for instance.

Arya, also couldn't lie for shit until she begun to train with the FM. She has always been forthright though, even when she was pretending to be someone else and that is why people respond and connect to her even when she is gruff and abbrasive.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

People keep saying that Arya and Sansa are so similar in personality but then they never give strong examples from the text that support this...Think about if you switched characters and every situation Sansa was in, you put Arya in and vice versa...There's noooooo way that the outcomes remain the same...The best example of this is Harrenhal...Picturing Sansa dirty, and "unrecognizable as a girl" is impossible...

Here are some huge differences between the two:

1) She's big time into songs, poems, and knights and ladies - Arya only likes the badass heroin stories (and the only other Stark woman we get a description about is Lyanna who we get told is an older version of Arya).

2) She looks like the Tully side - Arya looks like the Starks.

3) She looks down on Jon Snow because he's a bastard - Arya is the most kind to Jon and they have the best relationship

4) Sansa is great at knitting - Arya hates it and wants to do sword play.

5) Sansa looks down at times to Jeyne Pool being a stewards daughter - Arya befriends a butchers boy.

6) Sansa has something bad happen to her (her wolf gets killed) and she falsely blames her father and Arya, while lying to herself about the queen and Joff...bad things happen to Arya and she actively gets revenge or plots to do so.

7) Sansa has a risky proposition to leave KL with the Hound, but doesn't take it...Arya takes a huuuuge risk and escapes Harrenhal.

Even Arya and Sansa both in their own chapters continually highlight in their thoughts how they are different from each other or at opposite ends in their actions and how they would behave.

[Mladen]

People keep saying that Arya and Sansa are so similar in personality but then they never give strong examples from the text that support this...Think about if you switched characters and every situation Sansa was in, you put Arya in and vice versa...There's noooooo way that the outcomes remain the same...The best example of this is Harrenhal...Picturing Sansa dirty, and "unrecognizable as a girl" is impossible...

Here are some huge differences between the two:

1) She's big time into songs, poems, and knights and ladies - Arya only likes the badass heroin stories (and the only other Stark woman we get a description about is Lyanna who we get told is an older version of Arya).

2) She looks like the Tully side - Arya looks like the Starks.

3) She looks down on Jon Snow because he's a bastard - Arya is the most kind to Jon and they have the best relationship

4) Sansa is great at knitting - Arya hates it and wants to do sword play.

5) Sansa looks down at times to Jeyne Pool being a stewards daughter - Arya befriends a butchers boy.

6) Sansa has something bad happen to her (her wolf gets killed) and she falsely blames her father and Arya, while lying to herself about the queen and Joff...bad things happen to Arya and she actively gets revenge or plots to do so.

7) Sansa has a risky proposition to leave KL with the Hound, but doesn't take it...Arya takes a huuuuge risk and escapes Harrenhal.

Even Arya and Sansa both in their own chapters continually highlight in their thoughts how they are different from each other or at opposite ends in their actions and how they would behave.

They are different in their interests, and even in personality traits, but they also share a lot.

1. As for Lyanna, we should never forget that she cried during Rhaegar's song, and that there are indications she did exactly what Sansa did. So, that talk about her being adult version of Arya is, IMO, wrong.

2. Yes, but interestingly, Sansa behaves a lot like her father, and Arya like her mother.

3. Not quite. Sansa does not look down at Jon. We have many examples that Sansa loves and is very devout to him, maybe not like Arya, but nonetheless.

5. Jeyne is Sansa's best friend. The two of them have been very close. I sincerely don't think we can say that Sansa looked down at her because of her status. Also, given how Sansa hit right the way with entire Vale, servants, hedge knights, etc... I simply don't think that Sansa is as snob as some would think.

6. Sansa blamed Ned because he was after all the one who killed the wolf. Also, she did blame Cersei, but was very reluctant to blame Joffrey, true. And, if we are completely honest, Lady did die because of grown-ups - Ned, Cersei and Robert.

7. Sansa escaped with Dontos, you don't think that was risky?

[Darksnider05]

Sansa is still a prisoner she has never escaped anything. You haven't shown them to be a like in anything as for Lyanna she was half a lady.

Arya in no way even pretends to be a Lady.

[Mladen]

Sansa is still a prisoner she has never escaped anything. You haven't shown them to be a like in anything as for Lyanna she was half a lady.

Arya in no way even pretends to be a Lady.

Can we surpass the looks and lady thing? There are a lot they share in common:

1. They are both naive. Perhaps in different things, but both girls show great naivete when it comes to others.

2. Both girl are fierce, and both of them know how to survive. Arya survived Harrenhal by being quiet and obedient, very similar to how Sansa survived KL.

3. In regard of being she-wolves, both are just that. Only that Martin emphasizes different aspects of it in different situations. Sansa by not kneeling to Tyrion showed that wolf nature, just as Arya rejects the idea of love.

4. They have rather similar responses in regard to what happened during RW. Both become more private, they suffer in quiet, keeping all of it to themselves.

5. Both girls feel very strong connection to their families, Winterfell and North.

In terms of winter, Arya is a blizzard, Sansa is that icy chill. It's quite different, but regardless of that, it is cold.

[Darksnider05]

1. Being naive and lacking experience are different things.

2. Sansa is about as fierce as a baby bird.

3. Token resistance is not actual resistance. If she had killed Joffery in a double take out that would of been actual resistance.

4. Shared grief over the death of their mother and brother. That's something they share as family members not being alike.

5. Arya this is a constant Sansa is on and off with this it's a big part of her character.

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree their very different people to me. When Sansa steps out and puts her life on the line actively under her own initiative she can be a "She-Wolf".

[The Mother of The Others]

If they're really the same person, then how come in Stark family photos they're clearly two separate people standing next to each other? Huh? Gotcha! No answer for that, is there. Busted!

[Sordelor]

1. Being naive and lacking experience are different things.

2. Sansa is about as fierce as a baby bird.

3. Token resistance is not actual resistance. If she had killed Joffery in a double take out that would of been actual resistance.

4. Shared grief over the death of their mother and brother. That's something they share as family members not being alike.

5. Arya this is a constant Sansa is on and off with this it's a big part of her character.

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree their very different people to me. When Sansa steps out and puts her life on the line actively under her own initiative she can be a "She-Wolf".

1. In the first book I had the impression Sansa was naive because she lacked experience.

2. Not going into that, sorry.

3. That would have just been stupid.

4. Agreed.

5. Sansa has just done other things than Arya, had been between rooters against the Northerners for a very long time, this can make a difference between the two.

[Ashkhen]

Any thoughts on how Sansa could die? Who wants her dead, at this point?

There are other characters in more precarious situations, more despised, etc. who I think are more likely candidates for death.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Yes I agree with what you've said here Elaena. The passivity on those particular times was a necessity for survival. But I still think even the adjective "passive" when used in reference to Arya pretty much insults the character; seeing the lengths to which she went to escape free from Harrenhal, and later from BWB and Hound. That desire for freedom and going back home was always within her. So even if there were some dark periods in between, she was always planning to be on her way back home. And here I tell my opinion - more so than Sansa.

Point taken Arya kiddin and I do agree, plus I believe Arya would as well, so maybe I should find an alternative way to describe Arya in those circumstances. Arya absolutely hated herself during those occurrences, with the Mountain she was personally disgusted and referred to herself as a lamb (lamb to the slaughter), then at Harrenhal she did the same calling herself a mouse with much self loathing.

It seems like maybe Arya was just wearing a mask to survive with never allowing these horrors to break her by using anger (again) even with herself. Calling herself demeaning names while self-loathing seems like she was prodding herself to action because she just could not stand to submit to these monsters for another minute. So it was merely a part Arya had to play with just another 'mask' or 'face' she had to wear even though she despised it intensely.

Originally I only wanted to broadly point out that Arya is capable of behaving in a passive manner if she chooses to in view of the fact that some think that she could never submit and would be killed in certain situations however I feel that is fallacy.

[Petyr Patter]

Any thoughts on how Sansa could die? Who wants her dead, at this point?

There are other characters in more precarious situations, more despised, etc. who I think are more likely candidates for death.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99141-bad-news-baelish-or-purple-wedding-20/

The thread is a little on the long side, but essentially Littlefinger is not being honest about his intentions regarding Sansa. Why put somebody who would kill you if she found out about half your sins (Jeyne Poole stands out) in a position of great influence and power. To really drive home the point, realize he has an established pattern of behavior of betraying people who put trust in him: Eddard, Dontos Hollard, Joffrey, Lysa Arryn.

[ache]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99141-bad-news-baelish-or-purple-wedding-20/

The thread is a little on the long side, but essentially Littlefinger is not being honest about his intentions regarding Sansa. Why put somebody who would kill you if she found out about half your sins (Jeyne Poole stands out) in a position of great influence and power. To really drive home the point, realize he has an established pattern of behavior of betraying people who put trust in him: Eddard, Dontos Hollard, Joffrey, Lysa Arryn.

Yep, absolutely agree with this. Littlefinger is giving Sansa a scenario that does not feel like an immediate threat to her to keep her unaware and compliant. I think this is what the snow castle symbolised, right back in the beginning through Dontos, he lead her to believe he was taking her home, to Winterfell. The Winterfell made of snow represents exactly what Littlefinger intends to give her - lies and illusion, nothing at all of substance. I think his plans are much darker and nothing good for Sansa at all but I also believe he will be taken down and it will be his intrigues and double dealing that helps do it.