Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[Mladen]

Is it because over time we see so many ridiculous statements made for real that we stop giving giving people the benefit of the doubt when they say something ironically? To be safe, just assume everyone is ironic. If you're talking to MTV viewers, this will work 97% of the time, because that's how often they're sarcastic. Also, hiding in a hole sounds like something we might need to turn the Barry White back on for.

Thank you so much... I now feel much better :)

But, I imagine you are right, we have heard some ridiculous statements, even here on this thread, that sometimes we have lost the ability to recognize when someone is actually joking

[E-Ro]

Sansa is no brighter or dumber than any of us as I wrote. If this is demeaning then you have just insulted the whole forum :D

Whaaaaaaat? So sansa has the exact same intelligence level as all 70,000 people that post on this forum? This would also mean that all the people on this forum are just as smart as one another.your is a diseying intellect.

[Woman of War]

Whaaaaaaat? So sansa has the exact same intelligence level as all 70,000 people that post on this forum? This would also mean that all the people on this forum are just as smart as one another.your is a diseying intellect.

Sorry I am not a native speaker and this may be the reason I cannot make sense of your post. You might have to explain it again for me.

[The Mother of The Others]

Maybe you're better at timing the market than I am, Patter. Admittedly, I'm horrible at it. Was too shy to get in on this recent dow jones stairway to heaven thing. So it may indeed be time to invest in Starks again too. It seems like that'd be falling into the trap though. The 3 other Stark deaths taught us to avoid going back to thinking anyone was safe. I was legit worried for Tyrion in the Roman collisseum. The next one to go may well be someone with "plot armor." And even though this is unrelated, Rickon must die!

[E-Ro]

Sorry I am not a native speaker and this may be the reason I cannot make sense of your post. You might have to explain it again for me.

I mean if sansa is the same (not brighter or dumber) as all of us that would mean we were all the same. And, that really isnt the case.

[Pod The Impaler]

I do not think Sansa will be the next POV to die. I do not think she is death-proof, but I expect we'll see her around for a while yet.

I don't think there's been a decent POV character to tell Rickon's story. Rickon himself is too young and Osha probably isn't important enough. I think Rickon will be the Stark in Winterfell but I'm not sure who tells that tale.

If Osha is the prologue POV, then this will likely lead into Rickon / Davos. She may not survive it though.

I think Sansa will have her first sex with Baelish, and certainly not in a violent manner, Baelish is not dumb enough for this, he could easily seduce her and I guess he will. Martin will not give us some rape, Sansa will enjoy it, though maybe with mixed feelings. And then for a while Sansa may go along with playing Baelish's games until she finds out how he betrayed her family. This will be the turning point for her, she would seek revenge and maybe succeed. This may leave her cynical and dark or open a path for Sansa back to herself after she has gone through hell.
I believe Harry the Heir is only a big red herring, there will be no first sex with him. Nor do I think that having sex will be the big game changing turning point, since at a certain age, well, it happens to all of us and doesn't turn our personalities upside down. It will be the knowledge how she has been manipulated and abused that would completely turn her worldview around.

No, she won't die a virgin.

It is certainly one possible outcome that she be finally seduced by Littlefinger. After all, LF wants it so desperately, he is taking enormous risks to achieve this outcome.

If he was intent on raping her, he could already have done so. But Baelish psychologically needs her to come to him willingly and want to be Lady Baelish - perhaps she would be tricked to get there eventually, but she must in the end see him as desirable. Otherwise, how can LF "win" the lifelong struggle for his red-haired Tully dream girl ? Sansa Baelish - loyal wife, or partner in crime, or whatever - but truly his.

As you said, there is also the chance she will give herself to him once and then regret it. Or maybe he will have "won" by having seduced her, and find that the chase is better than the catch, and he'll grow bored of his hollow conquest.

With her emotions and his scheming, there are so many possible ways it could turn out. The last Sansa chapter in AFFC really, really hints that Baelish is pressing for more intimate contact with her, but what is left ambiguous is her feelings about that.

There are lots of "death cliffhangers" in the story, but this situation is a sexual cliffhanger. GRRM is really messing with our heads here - the next Sansa POV chapter could be anything from "Sansa is revolted and stabs him the next time he makes a pass at her" to "Sansa is pregnant with Baelish's child".

Personally, I think the former is more likely than the latter, but after the Red Wedding or Dany actually marrying Hizdahr McJerkface, can we really rule out anything ?

I don't think you were bashing her, Lady Arya, and I appreciate the general point of what you were going for. I've noted before the similarity in tone and mood between Sansa's snow Winterfell chapter and a part of Theon's ghost in winterfell chapter in ADWD. That both feel isolated and alienated in those moments comes through very clearly. My objection is to what I believe was an erroneous and negatively slanted interpretation of Sansa's actions with regard to her family in KL. Despite her disobedience and some unpleasant comments to Arya, she does not set out to betray them or to capitalize on her family's weakness at any point.

Well, no, this was not a true betrayal of that sort. Sansa did go against her family's best interests, and her father's instructions, but largely because she did not understand the larger context of why things were happenning.

Sansa thought her father was just being mean and wanting to take her from her "true love" Joffrey because he didn't understand about love and so on. She knew nothing of the Stark / Lannistr cold war that was already heating up; she knew nothing about Joffrey being a bastard born of incest (and had Ned told her, she would not have believed it). She chose to go against Eddard's wishes, thinking that being Mrs. Joffrey Baratheon (so to speak) was more important than being Sansa Stark. Part of this was not understanding the danger, and part was just wilful blindness. (Perhaps this is the symbolism of Lady dying: her choices, and not realizing the value of her Stark identity until after something terrible had happenned.)

I think Eddard's problem was that he thought Sansa would simply trust his judgment, and that would be the end of it. Had he known Sansa would not understand, or rather would need to understand, then he might have just marched her directly to a ship and paid the captain in gold to go to White Harbour with Sansa and Arya, immediately and with no questions asked. (Perhaps stopping only at Dragonstone with a certain letter.) Instead, Eddard thought Sansa would continue to be a "good girl" and not take an active role in opposing going home. Sansa tried to reach King Robert, but ended up going to Cersei instead - big mistake. So her disobedience of her father was not motivated by malice, but by being desperate and too focused on her own romantic situation. She was a fool, who refused to see her boyfriend as the douchbag everyone else knew he was, and / or believed the fairy tale where her love for Prince Joffrey would make everything okay.

Ironic though - Eddard not telling Sansa the full situation she needed to know led to disaster; Robb Stark not telling Edmure Tully his real strategic plans for the siege of Riverrun also led to disaster.

Moral of the story: Don't keep the more emotionally-sensitive Tullys in the dark ?

[butterbumps!]

Sansa is no brighter or dumber than any of us as I wrote. If this is demeaning then you have just insulted the whole forum :D

No, I didn't. I think you may not quite understand my initial response to you-- the issue of mental prowess was not particularly what I was speaking to.

From your post in question, you argued the following:

1. Given Sansa's completely average cognitive abilities, the audience is inherently easier able to identify with her than characters who are more exceptional in those areas (and, inexplicably, Bran was your point of comparison when you mentioned the "cunning, insight and cleverness").

2. But somehow, given Sansa's extraordinary, non-average looks, this makes readers want to root for her more over characters with more average looks.

3. You also argue that magical abilities are something that makes it difficult for readers to engage with a character, and is something that benefits reader sympathy for Sansa, since she's more accessible thusly.

My response was this:

1. Unremarkable qualities seem to have less of an impact on reader sympathy than constructions like "the underdog" or a character's relationship to other characters. And on this front, Sansa suffers in comparison to other characters who are set up as underdogs and presented as highly aligned, such as Ned, Arya, Tyrion and Jon.

2. A character's relationship to magic has nothing to do with their cognitive abilities or character traits.

3. A character's relationship to magic seems to have less of an impact on whether a reader finds their arc interesting or engaging than whether their arc intersects the plot in a more appreciable way.

In short, my view is that you seem to be positing that Sansa is super popular for incredibly strange reasons. Firstly, I never got the impression that she was significantly popular, or that she was a character many readers were able to sympathize with, especially at first. And certainly not due to her supposed averageness-- she doesn't really operate as one of our "everyman" characters the way you're claiming. And I suppose further, the story's major "everyman," Tyrion, is prominently marked by his uncanny smarts, so the notion of averageness as a sympathy mechanism doesn't really hold up.

[Mladen]

I mean if sansa is the same (not brighter or dumber) as all of us that would mean we were all the same. And, that really isnt the case.

Amen... I personally would like to be the same as you, but unfortunately, I don't have those pouty lips and curly Jersey hair. :) And, not to mention my most grievous shortcoming... I don't like Stannis as much as you do... :)

[Woman of War]

I mean if sansa is the same (not brighter or dumber) as all of us that would mean we were all the same. And, that really isnt the case.

You're nitpicking words and fight a pointless fight.

Sansa is meant by Martin as not being of any special abilities or anyhow a genius, this is the point of her character. She is meant to be absolutely relatable by being the girl next door. Of course you are free to dislike this but that won't turn her into either Marie Curie, Katniss Everdeen or Galadriel. She has no other weapons than any of us would have and she should start making use of them.

[E-Ro]

You're nitpicking words and fight a pointless fight.

Sansa is meant by Martin as not being of any special abilities or anyhow a genius, this is the point of her character. She is meant to be absolutely relatable by being the girl next door. Of course you are free to dislike this but that won't turn her into either Marie Curie, Katniss Everdeen or Galadriel. She has no other weapons than any of us would have and she should start making use of them.

Oh brah, my fights are never pointless.

Anyhow, im not sure what you mean by special abilities or genius. Shes actually a warg, so yeah, she does have a special ability. also, there are more ways to fight then physically. So far sansa has survived and gotten into a position were she can use her birth to make decisions and call shots, soon enough she will make her moves.

[butterbumps!]

You're nitpicking words and fight a pointless fight.

Sansa is meant by Martin as not being of any special abilities or anyhow a genius, this is the point of her character. She is meant to be absolutely relatable by being the girl next door. Of course you are free to dislike this but that won't turn her into either Marie Curie, Katniss Everdeen or Galadriel. She has no other weapons than any of us would have and she should start making use of them.

You're conflating things. You keep moving between super powers and personality traits in order to support your points, which is a faulty conclusion to draw and kind of nonsensical.

When someone posits that Sansa might not be so uniformly average as you are trying to present, you twist it into hyperbole like this. Which is absurd.

I've never seen anyone arguing that Sansa is a genius in earnest. I've also never seen anyone who tries to suggest that Sansa is a superhero or mystical creature, like the hyperbolic statements you're making do.

Yes, agreed, Sansa does not posses the superhuman powers you particularly bring up, nor is she Einstein, but this doesn't mean she's so uniformly "average" or "unexceptional" as you're trying to paint her as being. And on the flip side, those who do posess some exceptional magical powers-- Jon, Arya, Dany-- are among the best loved, which speaks against the premise you're trying to work from.

[Woman of War]

Strong female characters have to fight physically?? Lady Olenna? Arianne? Sansa is a big strong girl, she could fight a knife just like Cat did or even better but there are many great female characters in the books we never see wield a weapon. I guess Elizabeth I never learned to swordfight and Christine Lagarde probably can't shoot.

Sansa could do a lot of things, she could spy on LF, look at maps, search his papers, ask innocent questions here and there and maybe she could warg. She does nothing of all that and we do not know if she ever will.

About Dany: She is not very much liked in these forums and I got the impression that people think she is "cheating" by having dragons.

But all this has little to do with the likelyhood of Sansa surviving the books.

I think she is safe as long as she is with LF since her POV will report what happens in the Vale.

Good night now

[Shah]

Strong female characters have to fight physically?? Lady Olenna? Arianne

It's mutually agreed on that being strong doesn't have to involve physical strength, however, I don't think Sansa is strong. Yet. She was never much of a player and never did much. Of course, she is emotionally strong, no one can doubt that going through what she has gone through doesn't make her strong emotionally. But I still see Sansa a damsel in distress, waiting for a Knight to whisk her away and make her feel better. Until I see her start to rely on herself more rather than others, I don't think she'll be the last Stark. (assuming GRRM kills off all Starks, and Snow, except for one) Undoubtedly, she has potential and I think she will come into her own in the last two books.

[Sansa_Stark]

sansa is not a strong character.

i mean at all

You could argue Cersei, Cat, Arya, Brienne, Arianne, Asha, Olenna, Dany, Marg, Genna and many others are.

Sansa is almost always reliant.

[shiola]

Just to answer the OP: Sansa will survive until the bitter end, it is known.

[Shah]

sansa is not a strong character.

She is emotionally strong. You have to admit, it would be easy for her to end her life and hope that a song will be written about her. (Like she had thought GoT) She keeps going despite everything.

[Sansa_Stark]

She is emotionally strong. You have to admit, it would be easy for her to end her life and hope that a song will be written about her. (Like she had thought GoT) She keeps going despite everything.

not really

i dont think most people would commit suicide if they were in her shoes

[MoIaF]

No, I don't think she'll die. I think all the Stark kids will survive in the end.

[shiola]

I see a lot of people on earlier pages speculating on what Lady's death symbolizes... I always just figured that Lady's death meant that life was about to suck pretty hard for Sansa pretty fuckin' soon, and, more obviously, that she would not have a "protector" or "guide" of sorts, the way the other Starks have their wolves (or at least wolf dreams). It's kinda like, "Let's just kill this poor little girl's doggy right away so everyone can tell who the bad guys are and who the good guys are, and so the readers know I'm not fucking playing around."

[Shah]

i dont think most people would commit suicide if they were in her shoes

Sansa was being abused mentally and physically during her betrothal to Joffrey, the man who beheaded her father, forced to marry a dawf, expected to be bedded by a sadistic man who would give her bastard children rather than trueborn (Joff), remains with a family that had part in the death of her mother and brother, finally runs away and forced to be a bastard and kiss some pedo. And supposedly, her chapter in Winds of Winter is going to be controversial...I doubt it will be pleasant for our dear Sansa.

You can't tell me that going through that doesn't require much emotional strength.