Big Bang Theory 6: The Suffering of Being Unable to Love

[Datepalm]

See, I think this is one of the big differences that I do enjoy - I really don't remember anything "bad" ever happening on Friends. The fact that we get to see characters go through (sort of) real life ups and downs makes, for me, the enjoyment of the characters much greater.

Yeah, the stakes here feel higher, through being lower. Friends eked it's drama out of reaching for big, almost epic moments. Hookups, breakups, marriages, divorces, babies, neatly framed massive life choices. TBBT just has stuff happen by the by, or not at all, for no particular rhyme or reason and with incredible inertia. If Ross broke up with Rachel, well, he'd be having some wacky misadventure with another hot woman the next episode, and then a baby with Rachel anyway and then it will be kisses in the rain and grand "I love you". (Sheldon and Amy are the most extreme example - if he ever actually kisses her, I'm willing to bet it's going to be incredibly pedestrian, awkward and not particularly romantic (no candles, no swelling music, a bad grossout joke right afterwards, etc)...and it's going to have way more of an emotional punch then Rachel showing up at Ross's door. Seriously, bet me.)

If anything, How I Met Your Mother is the contemporary show that reminds me most of Friends - it's got the same kind of hopeful sentimentality and a certain unabashed corny romanticism, and is also about people who seem basically confident and happy and living lives full of great adventures and shenanigans in an awesome place. They're going to have a lot of great stories to tell some day, and they're mostly going to be regretting the things they've done, not the things they haven't done.

On the other hand, if Leonard and Penny end over this, he's just going to sit there and stare at the wall for a really long time, and she's still not going to become a movie star. I think i'm actually more invested in Leonard/Penny as a couple now, though i've been pretty on-board with them since they got back together. That's why them ultimately breaking up would be melancholy, rather than just seeming like cheerful just desserts if Rachel had taken off for her dream job in Paris and never thought of Ross again.

[Greywolf2375]

Yeah, the stakes here feel higher, through being lower. Friends eked it's drama out of reaching for big, almost epic moments. Hookups, breakups, marriages, divorces, babies, neatly framed massive life choices. TBBT just has stuff happen by the by, or not at all, for no particular rhyme or reason and with incredible inertia. If Ross broke up with Rachel, well, he'd be having some wacky misadventure with another hot woman the next episode, and then a baby with Rachel anyway and then it will be kisses in the rain and grand "I love you". (Sheldon and Amy are the most extreme example - if he ever actually kisses her, I'm willing to bet it's going to be incredibly pedestrian, awkward and not particularly romantic (no candles, no swelling music, a bad grossout joke right afterwards, etc)...and it's going to have way more of an emotional punch then Rachel showing up at Ross's door. Seriously, bet me.)

If anything, How I Met Your Mother is the contemporary show that reminds me most of Friends - it's got the same kind of hopeful sentimentality and a certain unabashed corny romanticism, and is also about people who seem basically confident and happy and living lives full of great adventures and shenanigans in an awesome place. They're going to have a lot of great stories to tell some day, and they're mostly going to be regretting the things they've done, not the things they haven't done.

On the other hand, if Leonard and Penny end over this, he's just going to sit there and stare at the wall for a really long time, and she's still not going to become a movie star. I think i'm actually more invested in Leonard/Penny as a couple now, though i've been pretty on-board with them since they got back together. That's why them ultimately breaking up would be melancholy, rather than just seeming like cheerful just desserts if Rachel had taken off for her dream job in Paris and never thought of Ross again.

Still can't figure out this new quoting feature.

Paragraph 1 - Agreed - Similar to Two and a Half Men with Alan. He apparently is this massive leach, lump, nothing positive about him yet somehow ends up with just about as many women as Charlie, the womanizer, and it all works out. On that topic, been thinking about starting a thread about least favorite characters...and most of them would be other peoples favorites. Kramer, Ross...Sheldon. I think their first kiss is going to be a mistake that turns into a kiss. The sort of bump-into-each-other, face to face....smooch.

P2 - yep. HIMYM is basically Friends in reverse. We know (aside from the mom being dead obviously) the end of the story, but need to know the beginning through their hijinks. Friends was the whole story to get to the ending.

p3 - that's where it would be most disappointing. With the other shows, it is the search for the other person. Ted is searching for SOMEONE. We know he finds her, but we don't who, where, etc. Chandler didn't have aspirations for Monica, but they found each other. Ross always wanted Rachel, but obviously didn't sit around waiting for her. For Leonard, while he has dated others, Penny is his dream and I think his Lobster. Everyone else has been a hold over for her - Leslie, the Dr, the other Dr even Priya. If Penny had said to him she made a mistake breaking up with him while he had been dating Priya, he goes after Penny.

[Datepalm]

For Leonard, while he has dated others, Penny is his dream and I think his Lobster. Everyone else has been a hold over for her - Leslie, the Dr, the other Dr even Priya. If Penny had said to him she made a mistake breaking up with him while he had been dating Priya, he goes after Penny.

Lobster? That's from HIMYM, right? A little fuzzy on all of that one.

Penny is kind of Leonard's...well, Lyanna. She's this idealized, redemptive muse on a pedestral across the hall, everything that would allow him, magically, to be the man he wants to be. When they first get together, he basically worships her. He's pathetically grateful that she's with him and caves to her every whim. This second round of their relationship is more interesting, where there's a bunch of episodes of him dealing with her as a living, breathing, imperfect person rather than as "The Hot, Fun Girl" who can fix everything that's broken in his life. But that doesn't mean they can actually make it work in the long run. Maybe what Leonard really needs to grow up is to move on completely from the fantasy dream woman.

[Rhom]

Still can't figure out this new quoting feature.

I just hit the toggle for the mode that uses brackets and such and then just copy and paste what I need, kinda like the old system.

[Gneisenau]

Penny always sorta gave off this "I'm doing you a favor for dating you Leonard", compared to Alex who was interested in Leonard in a more acceptable way. Speaking of which, what happened to Alex ? I think Alex could have made Penny reevaluate her relationship to Leonard.

Though considering Penny's drunk marriage to Zac, I think Leonard did the right thing by rejecting the proposal.

[Sis Who Swears]

Wow. That was REALLY depressing. And the parts that were supposed to be funny, weren't. :(

[lokisnow]

Penny always sorta gave off this "I'm doing you a favor for dating you Leonard", compared to Alex who was interested in Leonard in a more acceptable way. Speaking of which, what happened to Alex ? I think Alex could have made Penny reevaluate her relationship to Leonard.

The actress' chemistry with Leonard was too good, they had to get rid of her or risk changing the show pretty radically.

I loved this episode, it was so tragic, as the show pointed out, comedy = tragedy + time, and maybe is suggesting that tragedy is comedy - time, thus, this might all seem funnier in the long run, but is deliberately tragic now.

I think this episode might have tipped the direction the show is heading towards: Penny is outclassed, education wise by the group, but she has been assimilated and thus has them all down: in the diagetic world of the show she's going to be cast as a super smart scientist on a new Mark Harmon show and do it by amalgamating all the characteristics of her gang into her character. Thus she gets to embody the illusion of an educated, super-smart geek without ever being it. This is enough for Leonard, because all he wants is the illusion of Penny anyway. But is it enough for Penny? will she accept Leonard if he only accepts her because she fakes being smart for TV? I think for Penny it will be enough because she is the only unsuccessful member of the group, they have to give her career success to break her of her dependency on their welfare so she can come to the group as a (TV) equal.

Also, the Vanity Card on this episode is crucial, a must read, don't miss it, meta.

[Sci-2]

Penny always sorta gave off this "I'm doing you a favor for dating you Leonard", compared to Alex who was interested in Leonard in a more acceptable way. Speaking of which, what happened to Alex ? I think Alex could have made Penny reevaluate her relationship to Leonard.

Though considering Penny's drunk marriage to Zac, I think Leonard did the right thing by rejecting the proposal.

Alex was the better choice IMO. Seems weird to cling to Penny when someone just as pretty but way smarter is into you given Leonard's whole thing with Penny is dating the "cheerleader".

[Gneisenau]

Alex was the better choice IMO. Seems weird to cling to Penny when someone just as pretty but way smarter is into you given Leonard's whole thing with Penny is dating the "cheerleader".

But given his situation he couldn't just dump Penny. What would Alex think if Leonard decided to dump Penny and instantly switch to her ?

[Buckwheat]

Aw Sheldon. That

"kick me" sign

... that was uncalled for. :( He gave the impression of really understanding what Leonard is going through for a change, and then ... silly Shelly.

It is always good to see some Stuart though.

[Datepalm]

I think this episode might have tipped the direction the show is heading towards: Penny is outclassed, education wise by the group, but she has been assimilated and thus has them all down: in the diagetic world of the show she's going to be cast as a super smart scientist on a new Mark Harmon show and do it by amalgamating all the characteristics of her gang into her character. Thus she gets to embody the illusion of an educated, super-smart geek without ever being it. This is enough for Leonard, because all he wants is the illusion of Penny anyway. But is it enough for Penny? will she accept Leonard if he only accepts her because she fakes being smart for TV? I think for Penny it will be enough because she is the only unsuccessful member of the group, they have to give her career success to break her of her dependency on their welfare so she can come to the group as a (TV) equal.

Also, the Vanity Card on this episode is crucial, a must read, don't miss it, meta.

The Vanity Card, depending on how this person's career goes from here, is going to be either really hilarious or really sad ten years from now.

I have a hard time imagining Penny succeeding in showbiz, ever. Maybe, at best, she becomes one of those 'huh, she looks kind of familiar...?' faces who kind of gets by and makes a living at it (these people exist, right?) but not ever really breaking through and being all rich and famous, which is what she really wants when she says she wants to be an actress. It seems to me like personal growth for Penny, real growth, the thing that occupies the place of talking to women for Raj or being more confident for Leonard, etc, is getting herself together professionally instead of keeping up this adolescent fixation on "being a star." The saddest thing for me, in the episode, wasn't that the part got cut and she was crushed, but the bit where she admits she hates being a waitress but can't quit because she doesn't know how to do anything else. That she knows that, that she lives with it, come on, that's devastating. (On top of that, here she is crashing and burning a relationship in a moment of drunk stupidity, that's her too.)

It's also kind of interesting that this has never been done to Penny, as a character before. Everyone has had their share (except Bernadette, maybe) of humiliating moments when all their darkest but most incredibly banal needs and fears are exposed - except Penny. Penny used to be the catalyst girl, the visitor from the some other, kinder dimension where quirks are cute and failures just bring people closer together (maybe the community college she dropped out of back in Nebraska is actually Greendale) who highlighted how dysfunctional everyone else was. No more - she's a local now. Maybe that's why it had to be such an explicitly depressing episode rather than just having these things be subtext buried in a joke the usual way.

But given his situation he couldn't just dump Penny. What would Alex think if Leonard decided to dump Penny and instantly switch to her ?

Alex seemed strangely shameless about the whole thing. She knew perfectly well Leonard was taken and hit on him anyway.

[Datepalm]

Aw Sheldon. That

"kick me" sign

... that was uncalled for. :( He gave the impression of really understanding what Leonard is going through for a change, and then ... silly Shelly.

It's a lot closer than he usually comes though, and he did actually pull through, in the end, and took off the sign. I mean, the way he said "that wouldn't be funny at all," was so freaking sad, but it was also really...expressive, just in the tone of voice, in a way he rarely is. It kind of reaffirms my position that it's an essentialy optimistic episode. The depressing BBT stuff, IMO, is what goes unexpressed, because the whole point is that stasis is brutal in a completely different way from drama - even sad drama.

[Buckwheat]

Also, the Vanity Card on this episode is crucial, a must read, don't miss it, meta.

Wow. Thanks for making me pay attention to that one, I rarely read them.

Great. :bowdown:

It's a lot closer than he usually comes though, and he did actually pull through, in the end, and took off the sign. I mean, the way he said "that wouldn't be funny at all," was so freaking sad, but it was also really...expressive, just in the tone of voice, in a way he rarely is. It kind of reaffirms my position that it's an essentialy optimistic episode. The depressing BBT stuff, IMO, is what goes unexpressed, because the whole point is that stasis is brutal in a completely different way from drama - even sad drama.

I know, he came so close to make it real, and I am sure most of the viewers expected one of his tactless jokes the whole time, and were relieved when none came ... so the end was even sadder for me.

I cannot see this one as an optimistic, with Penny's career, and Leonard/Penny relationship and all.

Also Amy said she is not sure she wants to date Sheldon anymore - I totally understand her, but that is sad. Sheldon would try not to show it, but he would be devastated if she truly ended with him.

[Datepalm]

Also Amy said she is not sure she wants to date Sheldon anymore - I totally understand her, but that is sad. Sheldon would try not to show it, but he would be devastated if she truly ended with him.

Or, it might force him to grow and change and deal with how he feels in a way that having her there, stuffing all of her own emotions into a bottle, has mostly failed to. :dunno:

[beniowa]

Like others have said, quite depressing, though I loved the homage to When Harry Met Sally.

Penny always sorta gave off this "I'm doing you a favor for dating you Leonard", compared to Alex who was interested in Leonard in a more acceptable way. Speaking of which, what happened to Alex ? I think Alex could have made Penny reevaluate her relationship to Leonard.

Though considering Penny's drunk marriage to Zac, I think Leonard did the right thing by rejecting the proposal.

Not really sure, but she has shown up twice on NCIS as Agent McGee's girlfriend. Since that was the show Penny was supposed to be on I wonder if the irony was intentional or not.

[drawkcabi]

Have to agree with most of the comments about the show. Depressing, but in an engrossing way. It's weird how I actually feel something close to pride when I see how far Amy has grown as a character though. She began as the female Sheldon, then the group newbie desperate to be accepted, then she became more in touch with what she wants out of a relationship with Sheldon, and now while pieces of all that remain in her, she comes off as the most grounded one in the group, especially after the last episode. She was the most "real" of all of them.

Also in a depressing episode she has the bit that brought out a belly laugh from me:

"It's hard to listen to Sheldon tell 'knock, knock' jokes when he starts every one, 'Knock, knock, Amy. Knock, knock, Amy. Knock, knock, Amy.'"

For all the depressing-ness of the episode, I laughed harder at that bit than I think I did at any part of the series this season.

[Datepalm]

Have to agree with most of the comments about the show. Depressing, but in an engrossing way. It's weird how I actually feel something close to pride when I see how far Amy has grown as a character though. She began as the female Sheldon, then the group newbie desperate to be accepted, then she became more in touch with what she wants out of a relationship with Sheldon, and now while pieces of all that remain in her, she comes off as the most grounded one in the group, especially after the last episode. She was the most "real" of all of them.

I was ridiculously pleased for her that she went to lunch with Howard and Bernadette even though Sheldon didn't. Both that she could dump him in one of his aggravating projects and not feel a need to stick it through, and that she felt comfortable enough to hang out with the group (or a subset thereof) in her own right, and not as an adjunct to Sheldon (outside the all-girl scenes.)

[Warg Arry]

I have never read a vanity card until this moment. I honestly didn't think they were anything more than credits stuff.

I did like the sort of juxtaposition of Leonard and Sheldon and the question of Sheldon being funny or able to learn to be. We're Leonard felt comfortable enough to be almost harsh in his honesty.

vs

Leonard and Penny and the question of Penny's abilities as an actress and Leonard's belief that she could make it.

I felt like it was obvious that Leonard didn't believe that Penny would make it. (At least in that moment. Though he is quick to get insecure when an acting opportunity presents itself to Penny.) Leonard got flustered and confused. He wasn't able to express him self honestly in any natural way.

It's true he has good reasons for the difference in the way he handles the Sheldon and then the Penny situation. I just felt it was an interesting contrast.

[Buckwheat]

Also in a depressing episode she has the bit that brought out a belly laugh from me:

"It's hard to listen to Sheldon tell 'knock, knock' jokes when he starts every one, 'Knock, knock, Amy. Knock, knock, Amy. Knock, knock, Amy.'"

The Sheldon knocking jokes never get old. :D

[Sci-2]

Aw Sheldon. That

"kick me" sign

... that was uncalled for. :( He gave the impression of really understanding what Leonard is going through for a change, and then ... silly Shelly.

It is always good to see some Stuart though.

I'm kinda sick of Stuart. Raj is kinda pathetic but there's an upbeat cheeriness to him that balances that out.

Stuart is just a caricature of a person. I'm sure there are lots of single nerds but even when I worked at a comic book shop I can't think of that any Stuarts. But then there is that weird 4chany place where anyone who flirted with a girl gets banned so...