[tPaTQ Spoilers] New possibility for the origin of Dany's dragons

[Veltigar]

It's not only Tessarion. What about Drogon? Is he a female, or is Dany somehow a man?

And what about Vhagar? She was 50 during the conquest. How do you know that Visenya was her first rider?

Also, as I pointed out in the previous post, Sheepstealer is clearly referred to as a "he".

Sigh, again notice the bolded part of the quote:

seem (sm)

intr.v. seemed, seem·ing, seems

1. To give the impression of being; appear: The child seems healthy, but the doctor is concerned.

2. To appear to one's own opinion or mind: I can't seem to get the story straight.

3. To appear to be true, probable, or evident: It seems you object to the plan. It seems like rain. He seems to have worked in sales for several years.

4. To appear to exist: There seems no reason to postpone it.

As to your argument:

1) We don't know what Drogon's sex is. Dragons have been gone for this world for like 130 years (fuzzy on the dates) when they came back. They don't appear to have a cock or any other easy way of determening gender so how the fuck would Dany know that Drogon is a male.

2) Vhagar: I don't know if you heard but there were other female Targaryens before her. Aegon and his sisters weren't brought by a Valyrian storc you know. So 50/50 chance that she had a female rider before Visenya.

3) Sheepstealer, Cannibal and GG were all adult wild dragons (as in never ridden before). If a dragon forms it sex in it's formative years than they could have developed that individually. But dragons that have bonded with riders could take over their sex.

FWIW I believe the argument is moot anyway. Dragons are fluent in sexes, so when there are lots of them they probably take the sex of their riders (or if wild choose it freely). However, in times of danger of extinction (like when there are just three) only the strongest dragon get's to be male and all others become female (to increase change of offspring).

That would explain why Drogon is probably a male (Dany has no way of knowing, but her hunch about his sex is probably right) and why Vhagar remained a girl (she became a female because Balerion was the most powerful) and stayed that way because there were enough dragons to go around.

[Parwan]

I'd rather it be true they are from Asshai. More mysterious that way. I doubt we ever learn the truth of how Illyrio got them.

I have the same preference. This, however, is one of those issues that is probably not worth debating. It's a matter of taste, inclination, that sort of thing. Some people don't get the fascination with Asshai at all. Others want a better view of the place; they think part of the story (presumably a Dany POV) should go there. This idea drives some people nuts--"No, damn it, the little broad has already spent too much time with her story idling in the east. She needs to go to Westeros." I like Asshai as an off-stage place of mystery. Also, if Illyrio's presents really were fossils, eggs from a time long before the Targaryens and even the Valyrians, then that adds to the magic of the pyre, and to the power of the magic that is now returning to the world.

We probably won't learn the truth here. ASoIaF is a very big story. There are all kinds of loose threads. It's very hard to believe that all of them will be tied up neatly by the end.

[Dragon Roast]

The speculation about dragon gender is useless based on what Maester Aemon told Sam:

"The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

If this is true any dragons could mate with any other dragon and any dragon could lay an egg.

As for the fate of Sheepstealer (and that of Nettles and Prince Daemon Targaryen) we will have to wait until somebody remembers one of Old Nan's stories about them--or we hear it from her if she somehow survives her time in Lord Ramsey's care. Her histories seem more informed than the ones written in Old Town, especially when magic is involved...

[Veltigar]

The speculation about dragon gender is useless based on what Maester Aemon told Sam:

Nope, it's not. Because we can still speculate on why the dragons change sex.

I believe this explanations is very close to the mark:

FWIW I believe the argument is moot anyway. Dragons are fluent in sexes, so when there are lots of them they probably take the sex of their riders (or if wild choose it freely). However, in times of danger of extinction (like when there are just three) only the strongest dragon get's to be male and all others become female (to increase change of offspring).

That would explain why Drogon is probably a male (Dany has no way of knowing, but her hunch about his sex is probably right) and why Vhagar remained a girl (she became a female because Balerion was the most powerful) and stayed that way because there were enough dragons to go around.

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

There has been many theories about the origin of the Dragoneggs Dany get from Illyrio. Theories that they are from Valyria or that there are dragons or at least eggs in Asshai exist, and they are certainly still possibilities. However I feel that the Princess and the Queen gives a new possible origin of the eggs. We have one dragon unaccounted for after the Dance. Nettles disappear on Sheepstealer. So there's certainly a possibility that the eggs are Sheepstealer's. Still there are problems with this theory. It seems Sheepstealer is referred to as male. If this is true the theory won't work at all. Another problem is of course that if Sheepstealer was female, which dragon would be the father? It could be Caraxes of course, but a case could be made for most of the "black" dragons Sheepstealer came in contact with.

Of course as already mentioned if the records of Sheepstealer being made are true, this theory is not working at all. Still we have a new possible origin of Dany's dragons, as well as a mystery of what ever happened to Nettles and Sheepstealer.

I thought dragons didn't have a sex??? I thought's why the whole AA prophecy was confusing to everyone until Maester Aemon cracked it...

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

I thought Maester Aemon mentioned dragons are neither male or female. I was confused during TPaTQ for this reason.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I thought dragons didn't have a sex??? I thought's why the whole AA prophecy was confusing to everyone until Maester Aemon cracked it...

Just with Targaryens.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

[Arya kiddin']

Nope, it's not. Because we can still speculate on why the dragons change sex.

I believe this explanations is very close to the mark:

Isn't it generally believed in folklore that female dragons are the ones that are stronger?

[Nictarion]

Isn't it generally believed in folklore that female dragons are the ones that are stronger?

I wouldn't think so. Balerion was the strongest of all the dragons we know of.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Isn't it generally believed in folklore that female dragons are the ones that are stronger?

Balerion the dread says hello.

[Arya kiddin']

I wouldn't think so. Balerion was the strongest of all the dragons we know of.

Balerion the dread says hello.

"In folklore"..... :leaving:

[Nictarion]

"In folklore"..... :leaving:

Not sure? Where do you remember seeing it?

[Arya kiddin']

Not sure? Where do you remember seeing it?

I'm not entirely sure myself. Let me see if I can finsd something, I'll point it to you :)

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

Just with Targaryens.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

I guess I'm not understanding your reference...what does two Targs birthing dragonlike babies have to do with actual dragons not necessarily being male or female like Aemon tells us as to why Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophecy?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I guess I'm not understanding your reference...what does two Targs birthing dragonlike babies have to do with actual dragons not necessarily being male or female like Aemon tells us as to why Rhaegar misinterpreted the prophecy?

You were asking whether dragons had sex. I, very helpfully I might add, directed you to a thread in which brilliant, fanatical readers actually debate whether Targaryens take old one-eye to the optometrist with their dragons. You are welcome. (For the record, I, in fact, do not believe that Targaryens storm the cotton gin with their dragons.)

[Iona]

You were asking whether dragons had sex. I, very helpfully I might add, directed you to a thread in which brilliant, fanatical readers actually debate whether Targaryens take old one-eye to the optometrist with their dragons. You are welcome. (For the record, I, in fact, do not believe that Targaryens storm the cotton gin with their dragons.)

I see we have a cunning linguist here... :leer:

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

You were asking whether dragons had sex. I, very helpfully I might add, directed you to a thread in which brilliant, fanatical readers actually debate whether Targaryens take old one-eye to the optometrist with their dragons. You are welcome. (For the record, I, in fact, do not believe that Targaryens storm the cotton gin with their dragons.)

Oh...Thanks I guess for not answering my question and pointing me to a different topic?? Ha, please don't help me anymore...

[I Know I Know HoHoHoooo]

I see we have a cunning linguist here... :leer:

And agreed...At least your unhelpful post has poetry, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I thought dragons didn't have a sex??? I thought's why the whole AA prophecy was confusing to everyone until Maester Aemon cracked it...

Let's see, two sentences, one appears to be a rhetorical question and the other a statement ending with an ellipsis suggesting the omission of an implied word or phrase not necessary for the understanding of the statement. We do not know if dragons engage in sexual reproduction. Aemon merely pointed out that dragons can change their sex. He did not state that dragons are capable of asexual reproduction. Nor did his statement rule it out.

Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

Is that better?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I see we have a cunning linguist here... :leer:

Oh I try. I do try.