[tPaTQ Spoilers] New possibility for the origin of Dany's dragons

[MoIaF]

:bowdown: :bowdown:

I need a bigger emoticon for that one.

:blush: Thank you...

You were one of the theorist who got me thinking that the magic of ASOIAF might come from the same place. I think there might be two sides to ice and fire and I believe that the direwolves and dragons might be on the same side.

[RumHam]

I'm not sure where I read it, but wasn't there a member of the KG who tried (and failed) to steal some eggs for Daemon I?

We don't know that he was a kingsguard, but yes someone named Quickfinger was caught stealing some eggs for Deamon. It's one of the many "if onlys" ser Eustace mentions.

As for the Targeyen stash of eggs, there were some not being used in infant's cradles back on Dragonstone during the time of Dunk and Egg. We don't know how many eggs were involved in Summerhall or if they were destroyed in the process. Even if the Targaryens had attempted to gather up all the eggs on Dragonstone at one time or another, they might have missed a clutch or two. The Princess and the Queen gives the impression that there are plenty of places on the island to hide.

After all for a while there no one can seem to find a fairly large dragon on the island.

Lord Hallyne of the Guild of Alchemists presented himself, to ask that his pyromancers be allowed to hatch any dragon’s eggs that might turn up upon Dragonstone, now that the isle was safely back in royal hands. “If any such eggs remained, Stannis would have sold them to pay for his rebellion,” the queen told him

[grand old duke of stark]

I'd like to make a pun about Illyrio having eggs on his face, but I'll spare you all :-).

What interests me is on top of where Illyrio got them, is whether he had the slightest inkling they might actually be 'live'. He indicates they're not; it seems he's sincere because if he thought they might become dragons he would have saved them for fAegon or to further his (purportedly) main plans in some way. But considering Illyrio seems to have been backing two horses, and that his partner is Varys, whom he may not entirely trust, did he have an ulterior motive in donating these potential WMDs to the V+D cause? Whatever the wheels within wheels are here, I'd wager that Illyrio did get them from Asshai or some Essosi source, and that Varys may have known nothing about them.

Comments, anyone?

[King Pellinore]

I think the eggs came from dragons..... but seriously, there are two very simple answers:

1. Dragonstone
   
2. King's Landing
   

In either case, Illyrio's lie would be to cover up why he didn't give them up earlier:

"Here you are Princess, your 3 dragon's eggs, the price of which could have kept you safe and fed for years to come. I've only been keeping them from you for 14 years. I hope you don't mind."

Viserys would have understood, right?

[Iona]

I think the eggs came from dragons..... but seriously, there are two very simple answers:

1. Dragonstone

King's Landing

In either case, Illyrio's lie would be to cover up why he didn't give them up earlier:

"Here you are Princess, your 3 dragon's eggs, the price of which could have kept you safe and fed for years to come. I've only been keeping them from you for 14 years. I hope you don't mind."

Viserys would have understood, right?

Viserys and Dany don't know about the V/I scheming going back 14 years, do they?

[King Pellinore]

That's the point. They had no idea of the plans made by Varys and Illyrio had made with all the others. Viserys was obviously ignorant of the plans otherwise, he would have let the khalasars ride off while he sat around drinking wine, amused himself with local women and waited for his bride to show up.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Viserys and Dany don't know about the V/I scheming going back 14 years, do they?

Nope, they don't. They don't know about the Varys part either. Which is the reason why Illyrio won't tell them if the eggs originated with Varys or at the Sack of KL or some other incident during the Rebellion.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up as evidence that they are Targ eggs, but the most convincing thing for me is that Viserion and the other dragons take a liking to Brown Ben Plumm, supposedly due to his (two) drop(s) of Targ blood.

If it was just that the dragons like him because the Targ blood is Valyrian blood, then the dragons liking him because of his Valyrian blood is a bit suspect as I'm sure half of Essos can claim a handful of drops of blood from old Valyria, and then shouldn't the dragons be taking a liking to a lot more people?

(But I might be a bit biased about this because it supports a theory I believe in, and without this it falls apart.)

[Iona]

Nope, they don't. They don't know about the Varys part either. Which is the reason why Illyrio won't tell them if the eggs originated with Varys or at the Sack of KL or some other incident during the Rebellion.

I was just thinking that there would be no reason Dany and Viserys would be upset that Illyrio didn't give them the eggs years ago, since they don't know he's been plotting stuff for longer than 6 months. So D&V don't care how long he's had them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up as evidence that they are Targ eggs, but the most convincing thing for me is that Viserion and the other dragons take a liking to Brown Ben Plumm, supposedly due to his (two) drop(s) of Targ blood.

If it was just that the dragons like him because the Targ blood is Valyrian blood, then the dragons liking him because of his Valyrian blood is a bit suspect as I'm sure half of Essos can claim a handful of drops of blood from old Valyria, and then shouldn't the dragons be taking a liking to a lot more people?

(But I might be a bit biased about this because it supports a theory I believe in, and without this it falls apart.)

Maybe. I'm biased the other way, so take it with a grain of salt, but my guess is that Viserion and the other dragons follow Dany in taking a liking to Brown Ben Plumm. The guy is amiable.

Especially since Viserion is put forward as very friendly and trusting altogether.

I was just thinking that there would be no reason Dany and Viserys would be upset that Illyrio didn't give them the eggs years ago, since they don't know he's been plotting stuff for longer than 6 months. So D&V don't care how long he's had them.

Viserys not being upset? Maybe. Not a chance I would take though.

Either way, it would be a chancy business whether D&V started asking uncomfortable questions. An unnecessary chance.

[Parwan]

I was just thinking that there would be no reason Dany and Viserys would be upset that Illyrio didn't give them the eggs years ago, since they don't know he's been plotting stuff for longer than 6 months. So D&V don't care how long he's had them.

Quite so. I don't think anyone on this thread has given decent evidence that Illyrio might be lying in this case. First off, there is an accusation that he is a pathological liar. No one has presented evidence that he is much of a liar at all. Then there is all the stuff about an egg stash and how Dany and Viserys would be upset. No one has presented evidence that there is such a stash. It certainly wouldn't seem that D & V think this. Dany doesn't even know what the things are when she first sees them. Also, even if it is established that the eggs are from the Targaryens, that says nothing whatsoever about when the fat man acquired them. He could quite plausibly maintain that he got them last week. There was all kind of chaos when the Targs were overthrown. KL was sacked. The servants on Dragonstone were reportedly ready to sell out the Targ survivors. Eggs from the supposed stash could have wound up in just about anyone's hands. Then they could have changed hands a number of times over the years. And if Illyrio is the least bit worried about questions from D & V, why would he present the eggs as a wedding present at all? He is under no obligation to do so. The guy is supposed to be such a big liar, right? Why would he presume that D & V are just going to accept his Shadow Lands cover story? If they think there was a stash, why would it not occur to them that the eggs are from it? Why would he believe they'd just presume, "Well, this great liar says the things are from the far east, so that must be the truth"?

We obviously don't have definitive evidence concerning the source of the eggs. Thus, theories like that of the OP can't be totally rejected. We do have some evidence from the text though. That evidence indicates that the eggs are from the Shadow Lands.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We obviously don't have definitive evidence concerning the source of the eggs. Thus, theories like that of the OP can't be totally rejected. We do have some evidence from the text though. That evidence indicates that the eggs are from the Shadow Lands.

Did anybody totally reject the theory of the OP? What I said was just that Illyrio's claim that they are from Asshai is no proof one way or the other. Not even a decent hint.

It doesn't matter one whiff whether the eggs are from KL, Dragonstone, Asshai or the moon, Illyrio would say that they are not from Westeros in any case.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Sheepstealer may be a female, because as first dragon-rider had a girl/woman. So this dragon could lay some eggs for example near Pentos or Sorrows.

What evidence do you have to back up the theory that a dragon's gender is the same as its first rider's?

We have no idea how long eggs can survive or stay dormant and wait to be hatched. Those eggs might be older than Balerion.

My bet is on them having something to do with Rhaena. Either that, or the three eggs-Pentos thing is just a red herring.

[King Pellinore]

Illyrio will definitely lie about them being from Westeros. If they were from Westeros, they would belong to the rightful king so, he should have given them to Viserys the second he got them, or at least, that's what Viserys would reason. If he got them from Westeros, he likely got them at the end of Robert's Rebellion. Dragonstone and KL were both searched for treasure after the war.

[Parwan]

Did anybody totally reject the theory of the OP? What I said was just that Illyrio's claim that they are from Asshai is no proof one way or the other. Not even a decent hint.

It doesn't matter one whiff whether the eggs are from KL, Dragonstone, Asshai or the moon, Illyrio would say that they are not from Westeros in any case.

I did not mean to indicate that you or anyone else was totally rejecting the OP's theory. Let me rephrase the matter: "I don't accept the OP's theory. I tend to believe that what Illyrio said is true. However, I can't say that I have really strong evidence of this."

Illyrio's claim does not constitute clear and certain proof. It is, however, evidence, certainly more than a decent hint. I continue to maintain that the guy has no reason to lie in this case and that his word has proven reasonably reliable in matters that don't disadvantage him. If the eggs were from Westeros, he'd probably say they were from Westeros. He's a pretty glib fellow. It wouldn't be difficult for him to come up with good answers to any questions D & V might have. Actually, there's no need to assume glibness or lying at all. What I said about chaos earlier is accurate. Who knows what might have happened to any Targaryen possessions during the fall? The Pentosi cheesemonger could in truth have acquired dragon eggs shortly before the wedding.

The origin of the eggs could be a matter of some importance, especially as regards their age. if the business about eons turning them to stone is correct, then the pyre incident is all the more remarkable. It wasn't just a case of old eggs hatching. Actual fossils turned into dragons.

[Veltigar]

What evidence do you have to back up the theory that a dragon's gender is the same as its first rider's?

From tPatQ it appears that almost all female dragons were ridden for the first time by a female dragon rider. The only odd one out is Tessarion the Blue Queen, which seems to have been ridden for the first time by Daeron the Darring.

[RumHam]

From tPatQ it appears that almost all female dragons were ridden for the first time by a female dragon rider. The only odd one out is Tessarion the Blue Queen, which seems to have been ridden for the first time by Daeron the Darring.

I don't see any indication that Daeron was it's first rider, only that Tessarion was a "young dragon," but definitely "of fighting size" unlike the younger Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, Stormcloud, and Moondancer (and the hatchlings who died in the Dragonpit.) Note that Sunfyre is described as "young" as well, but it's clearly not as young as the five I just listed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Dany fevered dream in AGOT:

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. ... the dragon..." And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. The last dragon, Ser Jorahs voice whispered faintly. The last, the last. Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Then her vision of Quaithe in ADWD:

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

There similarities in description might suggest that Quaithe influenced Dany's dream.

God damnit. I really want to know who the f!@# Quaithe is.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Illyrio does mention the origin of the eggs in AGOT:

Dragons eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, said Magister Illyrio. The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.

I think this is true.

Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things. He had friends in all of the Nine Free Cities, it was said, and even beyond, in Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands beside the JadeSea.

[Arya kiddin']

:blush: Thank you...

You were one of the theorist who got me thinking that the magic of ASOIAF might come from the same place. I think there might be two sides to ice and fire and I believe that the direwolves and dragons might be on the same side.

:o

Thanks Maester. :blushing: :blushing:

And the notion that dragons and direwolves can be on the same side is very interesting. :idea: