How did Jorah sell people into slavery?

[Nictarion]

Davos, the Cleganes and Bronn were not a serfs. Serfs are tied to the land and are basically owned by the land owner. In the Iron Islands Davos, etc, would be the equivalent of poor ironborn men not thralls.

Fair enough. Bad comparison.

[Lord Reaver]

Of course they weren't thralls, but I disagreed with your point of no other regions having the ability for people to drastically rise their station. Davos went from a low born smuggler to Hand of a king. Varys also started from nothing, and ended up on the small council. The Cleganes went from kennel masters to lords. Bronn goes from a lowly sellsword to a lord, etc...

The Cleganes and Bronn might be the only legitimate examples of people making drastic rise in westeros outside of Ironborn society. We don't know that much about them though. A kennel master is certainly not a serf, though they might conceivably have worked their way up to that. Same thing with Bronn, we don't really know what he was before he decided to become a sellsword, other than probably not highborn. He certainly was no serf, unless he broke the law to run away and become a sellsword, if so, see Davos.

What we do know is that both of these instances are under pretty extraordinary circumstances, and certainly far from the norm.

Davos was a smuggler. Outside of Westeros society completely. He broke the law in order to make his rise. Hardly constitutes rising within the society, now does it? Basically he's an example of how opressive it is: In order to rise, he had to become a criminal.

Varys, well, we don't really know what he started from, since we have no idea how much of what he says is true, and he made his rise outside of Westeros anyway. He was already well above middle class when he arrived there.

Compare this to Ironborn society, where a thrall's son (or indeed even the thrall, if they can free themselves, something that still hasn't been refuted) can amass enough money to buy a ship and be for all intents and purposes his own "king". And if he's successful as a reaver or tradesman, could work his way up to lordship. This is, in contrast to the Bronn and Clegane examples the norm in ironborn society: Sons of thralls gain freedom and can work their way up the ladder.

[sifth]

Thralls are slaves, don't kid yourself. They are taken against their will.

I pretty much agree

just another reason to hate the Iron Born

[SeanF]

The Cleganes and Bronn might be the only legitimate examples of people making drastic rise in westeros outside of Ironborn society. We don't know that much about them though. A kennel master is certainly not a serf, though they might conceivably have worked their way up to that. Same thing with Bronn, we don't really know what he was before he decided to become a sellsword, other than probably not highborn. He certainly was no serf, unless he broke the law to run away and become a sellsword, if so, see Davos.

What we do know is that both of these instances are under pretty extraordinary circumstances, and certainly far from the norm.

Davos was a smuggler. Outside of Westeros society completely. He broke the law in order to make his rise. Hardly constitutes rising within the society, now does it? Basically he's an example of how opressive it is: In order to rise, he had to become a criminal.

Varys, well, we don't really know what he started from, since we have no idea how much of what he says is true, and he made his rise outside of Westeros anyway. He was already well above middle class when he arrived there.

Compare this to Ironborn society, where a thrall's son (or indeed even the thrall, if they can free themselves, something that still hasn't been refuted) can amass

enough money to buy a ship and be for all intents and purposes his own "king". And if he's successful as a reaver or tradesman, could work his way up to lordship. This is, in contrast to the Bronn and Clegane examples the norm in ironborn society: Sons of thralls gain freedom and can work their way up the ladder.

There's a fair degree of social mobility outside the Ironborn. Ser Clayton Suggs was born in Flea Bottom, and knighted by Stannis. Ser Duncan the Tall became

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Septon Barth became Hand. The High Sparrow was born a peasant. Janos Slynt was a butcher's son. Tom Sevenstrings mixes with nobility as well as peasants.

[Maia]

Do we ever hear about poachers anywhere else in the series?

Yes. One of the rangers killed in prologue of AGoT (Will) had to join NW because he was caught poaching on Mallister lands and would have lost a hand otherwise. One of the men in Yoren's group of recruits in ACoK was also a condemned poacher.

OTOH, I find it surprising that in the wooded areas of the North that have relatively little agriculture, such as the Bear Island, commoners aren't allowed to hunt. I'd have thought that a substatntial number of Northmen had to be part-time hunters and trappers to survive, what with summer snows and long irregular winters.

Or is it that they aren't allowed to hunt certain animals, such as deer, but everything else is a fair game?

I also can't imagine how on earth it could have been worth Jorah's while to sell these poachers in practical terms.

I mean, they didn't have any skills valuable in Essos and had to be fed the whole way to the Free Cities, so how much would any competent trader offer for them?

[Lord Reaver]

Septon Barth was a blacksmith's son. Janos Slynt as you said a butcher's. Quite a bit above serfs, then.

Clayton Suggs and Duncan the tall rose from urchins to Hedge Knights. They never made lords.

These are still only a handful examples, from an area many many times larger than the Iron Islands, and from a period of history stretching back to Jahaerys I.

[Lord Reaver]

OTOH, I find it surprising that in the wooded areas of the North that have relatively little agriculture, such as the Bear Island, commoners aren't allowed to hunt. I'd have thought that a substatntial number of Northmen had to be part-time hunters and trappers to survive, what with summer snows and long irregular winters.

Or is it that they aren't allowed to hunt certain animals, such as deer, but everything else is a fair game?

Might well be that the Lord has his own hunting grounds where noone else is allowed to hunt, and that they decided (for whatever reasons) to hunt there instead of where they were allowed to, thus making them poachers.

[GallowsKnight]

OTOH, I find it surprising that in the wooded areas of the North that have relatively little agriculture, such as the Bear Island, commoners aren't allowed to hunt. I'd have thought that a substatntial number of Northmen had to be part-time hunters and trappers to survive, what with summer snows and long irregular winters.

Or is it that they aren't allowed to hunt certain animals, such as deer, but everything else is a fair game?

I also can't imagine how on earth it could have been worth Jorah's while to sell these poachers in practical terms.

I mean, they didn't have any skills valuable in Essos and had to be fed the whole way to the Free Cities, so how much would any competent trader offer for them?

It might not be a full ban on hunting. It maybe be that commonfolk can fish and catch hares and smaller game. But something like deer only Lords and Knights can hunt. Or as another poster said certain areas are the Lord's personal reserve.

Or a man might have to enter contract with his lord to be able to hunt. Perhaps he gives certain amount of his crop or supplies a family member in times of wars, he gets special dispensation.

Finally these might not be poor folks trying to scrap a living. This might have been a larger scale organised criminal poaching operation. Something were they might kill many animals just for prized parts of them furs, antlers, ivory (seal/walrus kind) etc. This poachers would be outlaws and likely dangerous folk who'd kill to keep their secrets.

[sifth]

So we all agree that selling these pochers to slavery is wrong, but is sending them to The Wall right then? I mean it's just a small step above slavery, IMO. In away you're a slave to the realm

not to mention the whole bit of having to face Ice Zombies and Giants, lol

I mean to me both faits suck, it's all about one just sucking slightly less than the other, lol

[Sansa_Stark]

So we all agree that selling these pochers to slavery is wrong, but is sending them to The Wall right then? I mean it's just a small step above slavery, IMO. In away you're a slave to the realm

not to mention the whole bit of having to face Ice Zombies and Giants, lol

I mean to me both faits suck, it's all about one just sucking slightly less than the other, lol

such is the life of a westerosi commoner

[Gneisenau]

Aren't thralls just indentured servents ?

[Sansa_Stark]

Aren't thralls just indentured servents ?

Iron born ones?

Are indentured servants children born free?

As I recall, the Iron born thralls need to go through some brutal sacrifice for their kids to be born free.

[GallowsKnight]

So we all agree that selling these pochers to slavery is wrong, but is sending them to The Wall right then? I mean it's just a small step above slavery, IMO. In away you're a slave to the realm

not to mention the whole bit of having to face Ice Zombies and Giants, lol

I mean to me both faits suck, it's all about one just sucking slightly less than the other, lol

Yes slavery is wrong. The wall is right or at least not as shit.

It's the law. It may be harsh but it exists for a reason. And outlawing slavery is one of the few laws that protects Westerosi commoners.

And these poachers committed a crime, unfair as it may seem. Their actual punishment is amputation of a hand. Taking the black vetoes that but in return they must give up their old life. The same for rapers and castration and murders and hanging.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I've always thought that the more interesting question was : WHO were the poachers? Given the location of Bear Island, I suspect it may have been members of the northern mountain clans. Someone had to inform Ned, so that makes sense more than wildlings. Someone had to witness what happened.

Also, were the slaves ever recovered?

Mormont smallfolk. No other explanation makes sense. Members of the mountain clans would have to go on a full month's tour and get a ship in between.

[Nictarion]

I pretty much agree

just another reason to hate the Iron Born

Nah, I love reading about the Iron Born.

[sifth]

Yes slavery is wrong. The wall is right or at least not as shit.

It's the law. It may be harsh but it exists for a reason. And outlawing slavery is one of the few laws that protects Westerosi commoners.

And these poachers committed a crime, unfair as it may seem. Their actual punishment is amputation of a hand. Taking the black vetoes that but in return they must give up their old life. The same for rapers and castration and murders and hanging.

so condeming these people to essentinally live the life of a character on The Walking Dead is right, but slavery is wrong

I'm sorry, but it comes off as apples and organes to me, lol

[Iona]

so condeming these people to essentinally live the life of a character on The Walking Dead is right, but slavery is wrong

I'm sorry, but it comes off as apples and organes to me, lol

You do realize that in-universe, nobody expected anyone to turn into a mindless zombie anywhere? It came as quite a surprise to the NW, and people south of the Wall generally still don't believe this is a real possibility.

[WeaselPie]

Mormont smallfolk. No other explanation makes sense. Members of the mountain clans would have to go on a full month's tour and get a ship in between.

No, not so far. They live right along the Bay of Ice. But yes, could still be local smallfolk.

eta

*Northern mountain clans, not the clans from the Vale, just to be clear

[jet199]

There is probably a slave triangle type trade. The boats selling luxury goods in Westeros are probably slave ships as well.

Ships buy slaves in Meereen, They sell them in Volantis.

They buy luxury goods in Volantis, they sell them on the west coast of Westeros (mainly at Lannisport).

They get good quality gold form selling in Lannisport and use it to buy slaves in Meereen and maybe sell the Meereenese some Westeros goods.

At every stage they are making a profit, buying cheap and selling steep. They can just keep going round and round until they get very rich.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No, not so far. They live right along the Bay of Ice. But yes, could still be local smallfolk.

eta

*Northern mountain clans, not the clans from the Vale, just to be clear

So what? Still needing a ship, still needing at least several days even if they live directly on the coast. The month would be for more central clans. Two weeks to get there, one day of hunting, two weeks to get back again.