Carcetti Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 After finally reading 'The Ice Dragon', I felt like the story relates very much to ASOIAF, and I personally believe now that George used parts of 'The Ice Dragon' as a foundation for these books. Firstly, let me start by saying that if you haven't read 'The Ice Dragon', but you do plan to someday, stop here, because there will be a multitude of spoilers coming your way. Now, I start this analysis by accepting that the worlds in which both stories (TID & ASOIAF) are one and the same. The world of The Ice Dragon is just an early version of it. The short story came out in 1980 mind you, while AGOT was first published in 1996. I believe that after George came up with the initial story of the Starks and their Direwolves, he decided to set it in the world of The Ice Dragon, and build the story accordingly. To underline this assumption, let's look at some quotes from The Ice Dragon: "Teri ran the house and did the cooking, and worked a bit at the inn by the crossroads during the busy season.""They flew over the crossroads inn, where crowds of people came out to watch them pass." Granted, this is just a mention of a 'Crossroads inn', but there is a mention of another place that also exists in Westeros, which I will show later on. Next, let's look at some of the quotes that show remarkable resemblance to things, places, people and events in ASOIAF. There are a few quotes that show how much Adara, the main character in The Ice Dragon, resembles an Other: "And they said that the cold had entered Adara in the womb, that her skin had been pale blue and icy to the touch when she came forth, and that she had never warmed in all the years since. The winter had touched her, left its mark upon her, and made her its own.""The winter is in [Adara], you know. Whenever I touch her I feel the chill, and I remember that it was for her that Beth had to die." She even sounds like the Others: "It made her laugh an icy, tinkling laugh, a laugh as bright and crisp as the winter air"" The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking." (AGOT, Prologue) The Ice Dragon does, however, show us another type of creature that resembles others in some way: "At the first frost each year, the ice lizards would come wriggling out of their burrows, and the fields would be overrun with the tiny blue creatures, darting this way and that, hardly seeming to touch the snow as they skimmed across it." Next, let's look at some quotes about the actual ice dragon in GRRM's short story. There seems to be some resemblance to aspects of the Others and winter in general in ASOIAF as well. "Adara liked the winter best of all, for when the world grew cold the ice dragon came.""She was never quite sure whether it was the cold that brought the ice dragon or the ice dragon that brought the cold." This is pretty similar to some of the thoughts different characters have on the Others. There is another resemblance, namely, the sounds they make: "The ice dragon was a crystalline white, that shade of white that is so hard and cold that it is almost blue. It was covered with hoarfrost, so when it moved its skin broke and crackled as the crust on the snow." Now, these above quotes above make it seem as if it was ambiguous whether or not the cold came before the dragon. Some other quotes show that there is no such ambiguity and that the ice dragon brings the cold: "When the ice dragon beat its wings, the cold winds blew and the snow swirled and scurried and the world seemed to shrink and shiver. Sometimes when a door flew open in the cold of winter, driven by a sudden gust of wind, the householder would run to bolt it and say, 'an ice dragon flies nearby'.""...and when the ice dragon opened its great mouth, and exhaled, it was not fire that came streaming out, the burning sulfurous stink of lesser dragons. The ice dragon breathed cold.""Ice formed when it breathed. Warmth fled. Fires guttered and went out, shriven by the chill. Trees froze through to their slow secret souls, and their limbs turned brittle and cracked from their own weight. Animals turned blue and whimpered and died, their eyes bulging and their skin covered over with frost. The ice dragon breathed death into the world; death and quiet and cold.:" Lets step back a second and look at ASOIAF. A lot of people think that Dany might ultimately be up against the others with her dragons, but what if, and bear with me here, Dany and her dragons would be up against an actual ice dragon? What if the second Dance of the Dragons that is prophesized both by GRRM himself and by Teora Toland (TWOW, Arianne II) will actually be a battle between Dany's dragons and an ice dragon? This may sound crazy, but if we consider 'The Ice Dragon' a foundation for ASOIAF (as I do), there is precedent for this idea: "Out from among its icy teeth its breath came streaming, and that breath was pale and cold. it touched the left wing of the coal-black dragon beneath them, and the dark beast gave a shrill cry of pain, and when it beat its wings again, the frost covered wing broke in two. Dragon and dragonrider began to fall.""The ice dragon closed on it, wings screaming the secret song of winter, and a blast of flame met a blast of cold. The ice dragon shuddered once again, and twisted away, dripping. The other dragon died." Now, where would such an ice dragon reside if it actually exists? There is also information on that in 'The Ice Dragon', and this comes back to the place that exists both in the ASOIAF Westeros and in the world of The Ice Dragon (which I believe is the same world). "Soon her ice dragon would come for her, and she would ride on its back to the land of always-winter, where great ice castles and cathedrals of snow stood eternally in endless fields of white, and the stillness and silence were all.""Take me away, take me to the land of always-winter." These quotes are probably the reason some of us believe there are ice dragons in the lands of always winter (the ASOIAF kind). It could also be what Bran saw in his coma-dream when he could see the 'Heart of Winter'. OK, so if there is an Ice dragon, and Dany and her dragons would be facing off against them in the second Dance of the Dragons, what is the role of Jon Snow in it all? Well, if we believe R+L=J, which I do, Jon is the ultimate ice and fire combo. The embodiment of the mid-point between two ends of the spectrum. I am not sure who is going to be affiliated with the ice side (could very well be brand and BR), but I believe Jon Snow is the one who is going to put an end to the battle of Ice and Fire. There are dots here, like the Azor Ahai prophecy, especially the part where he would be born again, amidst smoke (fire) and salt (ice/water), I just cannot connect those dots yet. So, to sum it up:I believe George used his 1980 short story 'The Ice Dragon', as a foundation for A Song Of Ice And Fire. I think there will be at least one ice dragon (probably in the lands of always winter), and it will come forth to do battle with Dany and her dragons, resorting in the second Dance of the Dragons. Jon, as he is both fire and ice, will be the one to put an end to the battle somehow.Then again, this is just speculation. Maybe Jon will be the one to ride the ice dragon, maybe Jon IS the ice dragon and no such actual creatures exist. The main message to take away from this is: There are a lot of similarities between The Ice Dragon and ASOIAF. Too many similarities to be coincidences. Thanks for reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hulboy Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 funny I wss just thinking about jon on another thread an said I wouldn't be surprised if a ice dragon bursts from under wall an saves jon. jon is the ice dragon in my mind.i would like to see him get a real dragon .its gonna be amazing next 2 books .I love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Wow! Thanks for providing all of these quotes. I can't believe how many similarities there are and that the ice dragons live in the Lands of Always Winter. It would make sense if the Others had an ice dragon because the War for the Dawn will be pretty short if Dany and co fly in on the three dragons and melt all of the Others. I agree about Jon being the union of ice and fire and that he will play a key role in winning the war against the Others. There are a few references to ice dragons in the books like when Jon walks through the tunnel under the Wall and thinks it is like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon so it is possible ice dragons were as real as regular dragons in the world of ASoIaF at one time. Otherwise, wouldn't he have said it was like a dragon made of ice or something. He thinks of an ice dragon like it is a real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carcetti Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 There are a few references to ice dragons in the books like when Jon walks through the tunnel under the Wall and thinks it is like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon so it is possible ice dragons were as real as regular dragons in the world of ASoIaF at one time. Otherwise, wouldn't he have said it was like a dragon made of ice or something. He thinks of an ice dragon like it is a real thing. Yup, not to mention the ice dragon in the sky (constellation). I think it's said that if you follow it's eye, you go north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I think the only ice dragon is Jon. The second Dance of Dragons will be between Dany and Aegon. ETA: Nice job making the connections between the Others and Adara. I think there is chance the Others may not be as evil as protrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alysanne™ Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Interesting read.I am not going to comment on the existence of an ice dragon, but I think Adara's being a child that winter had touched might give us a little bit of hints on what the others actually are.Maybe they are similar to Adara, maybe humans that have been touched by winter?I've seen some interesting theories in the heresy threads of the others, you might want to have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I did the same thing last summer, can be found here, but I didn't section it the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassBlackfyre Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Could adara be the nights queen? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carcetti Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 I did the same thing last summer, can be found here, but I didn't section it the same. And here I was thinking no one had done it yet! Damn me and my limited search abilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Stark Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Yeah, I was just rereading ADWD, still am in fact, and in Jon's chapter at the wall he thinks on something being as cold as the ice dragon's breath from one of Old Nan's stories she used to tell. So maybe the Ice Dragon is a legend from the world of ASOIAF. Thanks for putting together all this info and putting so much thought into expressing it. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 And here I was thinking no one had done it yet! Damn me and my limited search abilities Don't worry, every thread has been done before. Even a previous-thread thread. And a previous-thread-thread thread. Threadception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I want to note, When Adara ask the Ice Dragon to take her to the land that is always winter the dragon turns North. But its her fathers scream that gives young Adara a change of heart and she begs the dragon to turn around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opaltiger Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I thought that GRRM had specifically denied that The Ice Dragon and ASoIaF were set in the same world. Though I seem to recall that he acknowledged that he had re-used some ideas (like the Land of Always Winter) for ASoIaF. Can't remember where I read that, though. Might be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 I thought that GRRM had specifically denied that The Ice Dragon and ASoIaF were set in the same world. Though I seem to recall that he acknowledged that he had re-used some ideas (like the Land of Always Winter) for ASoIaF. Can't remember where I read that, though. Might be wrong. Although I don't have the SSM to hand I do understand that he has denied the Ice Dragon story is set in the same world as ASoIF. Nevertheless its quite clear that certain themes from the Ice Dragon are being expanded upon and developed in ASoIF. It is therefore worth looking at the parallels for clues as to how things may turn out, but with a health warning that he may have decided to improve on it and do things differently this time around. The Land of Always Winter is certainly much more ambiguous than most readers of ASoIF seem to believe and what's up there may not turn out to be the ultimate evil that people expect. As to Adara, with the Winter inside her, I don't consider her as a pattern for the Others who I think are more like the Ice Dragon itself in human form. Rather, I'd suggest, she may be more significant in a different way. Its because she has the Winter inside her that Adara can interact with the Ice Dragon, ride it and be prepared to go to the Land of Always Winter. We're told that we're going to see the Land of Always Winter, but how is anybody to get up there and survive the extreme cold - unless they have Winter inside. Sansa had her snowflake communion at the Eyrie and afterwards stopped being a victim. Similarly Jon was several times "tempted" by a snowflake and his last thought as he went down was the cold. Perhaps therefore having Winter inside him will allow him to go north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 My take on it is that both the Ice Dragon and ASOIAF come from the same "muse" but they're not the same world, if that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 The world of The Ice Dragon looks like a blueprint for the World of Ice and Fire. "Adara" is such a nice name, compare to the sound of..."Other". Yay well, the next poster will claim she is Ashara Dayne gone into hiding in a fairy tale. Link to today's "Every mention of the Ice Dragon": http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101629-every-mention-of-ice-dragon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adara Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 The world of The Ice Dragon looks like a blueprint for the World of Ice and Fire. "Adara" is such a nice name, compare to the sound of... "Other". Yay well, the next poster will claim she is Ashara Dayne gone into hiding in a fairy tale. Link to today's "Every mention of the Ice Dragon": http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101629-every-mention-of-ice-dragon/ Nope. But I'd love to take "a look into the heart of winter". This line strikes me since my first read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Yay well, the next poster will claim she is Ashara Dayne gone into hiding in a fairy tale. She's not Ashara, the timeline is all off. Adara is obviously Septa Lamore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 She's not Ashara, the timeline is all off. Adara is obviously Septa Lemore. Darn! It is qnown! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other'side Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 George RR Martin's website does state that The Ice dragon is set in the same world as asoiaf.Of course this doesn't mean it's necessarily Westeros. I am intrigued as to why the Fire dragons invade from the "North" in this story.. I would have expected them to be Southron as in asoiaf. Perhaps more to learn about the geography of the world of Ice and Fire? Adara sounds half Other to me. Maybe something like Cold hands.(assuming that's what Cold hands is)I like the idea that one of Dany's dragons could die and be wighted to be an Ice dragon. Either as a force for the Others, to even up the playing field, or even possibly by Bran. This is based on an idea that the Others are simply extremely powerful wargs. Powerful enough to warg the dead. ie Wight.And of course, as is to be expected with Bran, anything they can warg, he can warg better ;) All speculation of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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