Daenerys the betrayer

[El Guapo]

This has been discussed to death, but I think its made clear the slaughter extends beyond that of the Plaza.

There is no question that people were slaughtered outside of the plaza but there is a question on whether her not that order to kill everyone over 13 did extend beyond it. The fact that seems to be lots of free men alive in Astapor who have since becomes slaves argues against it. not to mention there are apparently rand masters still alive too.

[RoamingRonin]

You were saying?

Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"

"The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."

"I see." Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. "Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman." She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife."

Slavery is still illegal in Meereen.

What hurts her campaign more is that she has to accept the Yunkai are going to continue slaving. But, no. Let's cry about how she profited from letting people sell themselves into slavery.

ETA: Just want to emphasize that she failed to neutralize the Yunkai which hurt her anti-slavery campaign. And now the Yunkai are leading the assault on Meereen. See. I can call her out on her failures.

See, this is why I just can't support Dany in this matter. Her stance on slavery changes constantly. The massacre at Astapor alone was terrible for a number of reasons, one of them being that several innocents died during it, which is often pointed out in threads like these but another is that she's willing to let Xaro Xhoan Doxas keep slaves because "he treats them well" but she never even gave this a thought in Astapor because it was inconvenient to her goal.

Xaro lives in Quarth so his slaves are in Qarth. As for the slaves he brought with him to Meereen, she can't do anything about them unless she attacked him... then you people would be crying about how she broke Guest Right and how she's no better than a Frey.

She doesn't let him keep them because he "treats them well":

Xaro caught it in the air and took a bite. "Whence came this madness?

Should I count myself fortunate that you did not free my own slaves when you were my guest in Qarth?"

I was a beggar queen and you were Xaro of the Thirteen, Dany thought, and all you wanted were my dragons. "Your slaves seemed well treated and content. It was not till Astapor that my eyes were opened. Do you know how Unsullied are made and trained?"

Here we go. More fiction from a Dany detractor.

You were lying?

[Bronn Urgandy]

How they really were, were people who made great moral advances in the world the inhabited and had the courage to take major steps. I am sorry but the modern tendency of some to basically argue that these people did not live up to current ethical standards seems nothing more that arrogant self-congratulation to me. The idea that every John Doe these days is a better man than Lincoln and Gandhi makes about as much sense as saying that any Freshman college science student is a better physicist than Galileo, Kepler, and Newton, is a better mathematician than Euclid, Archimedes and Khayyam, and is a better biologist than Mendel, Darwin, and Morgan.

Who'd be stupid enough to make comparisons like that? Not me, I just said that "not everyone who owned a slave was bad." But flaws shape as much as virtues, they dont belong under the rug, else we dont learn. These are great leaders they all got blood on their hands. So will their future counterparts, we can only hope that it is less.

Anyway, historical parrallels with this are silly, since they're all success stories and Astapor is in the shits, Yunkai is in the shits, Mereen is in the shits and Daenerys has the shits. My only point is terrible things were done in the name of good, but lets not dress those things up as good, And IF Dany cleans the mess up, then let the whitewash commence.

[Sansa_Stark]

Slavery is still illegal in Meereen.

What hurts her campaign more is that she has to accept the Yunkai are going to continue slaving. But, no. Let's cry about how she profited from letting people sell themselves into slavery.

ETA: Just want to emphasize that she failed to neutralize the Yunkai which hurt her anti-slavery campaign. And now the Yunkai are leading the assault on Meereen. See. I can call her out on her failures.

None of that matters.

The argument was that Dany profits from slavery.

And it turns out that she does.

Whether those people want to or not is irrelevant.

Dany profited from slavery.

That was the appeal, and that was the answer given.

[Nymeria Stone]

I am not equating them.I am not.But which post did I answered that to I can't remember really so there must have been a point I was trying to make.

This was the post you were replying for.

Yes, cannot help but cry over such amazing culture, barbarously destroyed. The Astapori didn't sell Dany the Unsullied to wage war, for Pete's sake! That's not their purpose!

And the way I see it, you did equate them, by comparing the way Dany dealt with the slavers to Hitler's acts towards the jews.

[Parwan]

There is no question that people were slaughtered outside of the plaza but there is a question on whether her not that order to kill everyone over 13 did extend beyond it. The fact that seems to be lots of free men alive in Astapor who have since becomes slaves argues against it. not to mention there are apparently rand masters still alive too.

I have read a lot of the discussion. I have not encountered a single text-based argument that provides decent evidence that anyone was killed outside the plaza. It might have happened, but the case is extremely weak. Nothing that ranks as proof. The chapter ends in the plaza. Absolutely nothing is said about any sort of action beyond that location. In the next Dany POV, she thinks about the event: "Blood aplenty had soaked into the bricks of Astapor the day that city fell…" As I have pointed out before, this is a very vague description. I once saw the results of a bad traffic accident. A phrase like "blood aplenty soaked the road" would have been quite appropriate. This would not even mean that the particular rather small section of the road was covered with blood. it certainly wouldn't mean that blood spread to other places or to the side of the road. In the Astapor situation, "blood aplenty" could have come from a limited number of people, fewer than were killed in the plaza.

With regard to Astapor, there is all sorts of commentary using words like "genocide." These charges do not stand up. If one wants to build a case against Daenerys Targaryen as a leader and ruler, one should seek a better basis. To do that, you should look to events in Meereen.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I cant believe that everyone is absolutely okay with the sack of Astapor and the unsullied deal. People are even saying that it is one of the greatest moments of the books?! I actually felt bad about the slavers and everyone in the city.

Even the slavers had more dignity than her. If this is how Dany is about to handle deals, I don't think anyone is ever going to trust her.

I have no sympathy for slavers, period. Nor the families of slavers, nor the people who stand idly by and allow it to go on around them. This was perhaps Dany's finest moment, and I can't believe she catches as much flack on these boards as she already does.

[Bronn Urgandy]

There is no question that people were slaughtered outside of the plaza but there is a question on whether her not that order to kill everyone over 13 did extend beyond it. The fact that seems to be lots of free men alive in Astapor who have since becomes slaves argues against it. not to mention there are apparently rand masters still alive too.

I have read a lot of the discussion. I have not encountered a single text-based argument that provides decent evidence that anyone was killed outside the plaza. It might have happened, but the case is extremely weak. Nothing that ranks as proof. The chapter ends in the plaza. Absolutely nothing is said about any sort of action beyond that location. In the next Dany POV, she thinks about the event: "Blood aplenty had soaked into the bricks of Astapor the day that city fell…" As I have pointed out before, this is a very vague description. I once saw the results of a bad traffic accident. A phrase like "blood aplenty soaked the road" would have been quite appropriate. This would not even mean that the particular rather small section of the road was covered with blood. it certainly wouldn't mean that blood spread to other places or to the side of the road. In the Astapor situation, "blood aplenty" could have come from a limited number of people, fewer than were killed in the plaza.

With regard to Astapor, there is all sorts of commentary using words like "genocide." These charges do not stand up. If one wants to build a case against Daenerys Targaryen as a leader and ruler, one should seek a better basis. To do that, you should look to events in Meereen.

Do you think "strike of the chains of every slave you see" only applied to the plaza?

Common sense says this was city wide.

[butterbumps!]

I believe that your overall view of Dany and her future has merit. My guess is that she will probably wind up doing more good than harm, but that's only a guess. Things need to change at a fundamental level on the western continent. Few characters, and certainly few leaders. realize this. Fortunately, there are some individuals who have at least an inkling of what will be needed, but that's not a matter for discussion on this thread.

Thanks Parwan. I don't know if you caught my recent Dany thread about this, but I'd ideally like to make a few more in that vein to explore how this might play out. I have suspicions about the broad strokes of her arc post-landing, but I haven't really come up with too many specifics. At any rate, I think a focus away from ruling and the IT might get closer to the heart of her character-- she's as much "mother" as she is "dragon," so she inherently provides the paradox of "creation from destruction," she's achieved cult-figure status, and has a history of stepping in with the oppressed, all of which leads to a sense of her being a "revolutionary" character. Anyway, I really think we're going to see a popular leader emerge in her.

Dany haters on Astapor: She killed so many innocent people! All the rules she used were so arbitrary! She's so incompetent!

Dany haters on Valyria: They were nothing but slavers and dragonlords! It's a good thing they died and all of their dragons too! The world is better off without them!

:dunno:

lol, I laughed at this. You may be right. Have many people said they wanted all of Valyria to die? If it's more that people said the Valyrians got what they deserved, I wonder how much the difference between the causes of societal destruction influenced that. There's a subjective difference in believing that slave-drivers hoisted themselves by their own petard and caused a massive natural disaster versus one person holding the power to condemn an entire group. But if it's about how the Valyrians should have all been killed, then you're right.

[SeanF]

You missed Mormont's point.

The tokar was the garment of the wealthy ruling classes of old Ghis. Only members of the powerful families were allowed to wear this symbolic attire.

In ancient Rome, there were strict regulations about who could wear a toga, what kind of toga he could wear, what color or design he could have, and how he was supposed to drape it. Same with the tokar. When Dani gave the order to kill those who wore the tokar or carried a whip, she was specifying that only those who owned, trained, and profited from slaves were to be killed. The artisans, tradesmen, peasants, and laborers didn't wear tokars or carry whips. Only the powerful slave owners, the Good Masters, wore tokars. Only their overseers and other collaborators carried whips. If you want to drag out the tired Nazi comparison, it's as if she told them to slaughter the high command and the guards of the concentration camps, not the general population.

This is part of what's troubling about Dany's adoption of the tokar to marry Hizdahr the Unpronounceable. By wearing it, she's identifying with the corrupt regime she intended to overturn. Although it would've alienated the ruling class, banning the tokar would've emphasized her role as the Mother, the Breaker of Chains, and solidified the love of the commoners. Buterbumps! is onto something. I hope Dany doesn't put her tokar back on again. To return to the horrible metaphor I wish I hadn't had to use, wearing the tokar is like putting on a Gestapo uniform. A Really Bad Idea .

The Roman toga was worn by all citizens on formal occasions. Knights and Senators had theirs fringed with purple.

It's similar to the habit of wearing morning or evening dress, in many modern countries. Rich people wear such clothes far more frequently, and of far better quality, than less well-off people, but the latter do wear them on occasion.

That's how I see the tokar. The rich wear theirs fringed with gold, silver, and precious stones, frequently, to show they don't need to work for a living. The less well-off free people wear plain tokars, less frequently, on special occasions. According to the text, people in plain tokars were included in the slaughter at Astapor.

[purrl1]

The Roman toga was worn by all citizens on formal occasions. Knights and Senators had theirs fringed with purple.

Roman *citizens*. The majority of the subjects of the Roman Empire were not citizens.

[SeanF]

Roman *citizens*. The majority of the subjects of the Roman Empire were not citizens.

Yes indeed. But many citizens were lower or middle class.

[El Guapo]

That's how I see the tokar. The rich wear theirs fringed with gold, silver, and precious stones, frequently, to show they don't need to work for a living. The less well-off free people wear plain tokars, less frequently, on special occasions. According to the text, people in plain tokars were included in the slaughter at Astapor.

It is debateable.

"Silver, gold, or plain, he cared nothing for the fringe."

Is the "plain" referring to the tokar itself or to the fringe. In other words the fringe is the same color as the rest of the tokar.

[Parwan]

Do you think "strike of the chains of every slave you see" only applied to the plaza?

Common sense says this was city wide.

If you are in the plaza and someone shouts, "Strike the chains off every slave you see," then it is quite likely that the command only applies to slaves in the plaza. Those are, after all, the slaves that you see. ASoIaF is a fantasy, but the Unsullied do not have the power to see through walls or view entire sections of a city without being in those sections. In order to free all the slaves in the city, it is not necessary that eunuch soldiers strike the chains off of them. Once a military victory is achieved (very quickly in this case), the slaves, the vast majority of whom will almost certainly not be in chains, can be counted on to free themselves.

If we are going to go with common sense, we might want to attribute it to the free people of Astapor. Dany didn't exactly whisper the business about killing people wearing tokars. if you were a well-to-do citizen, it might just occur to you to take off your tokar. That's another bit of reasonable analysis showing the same thing I've asserted many times--The evidence for genocide in Astapor is quite weak, flimsy I'd say.

[Parwan]

Thanks Parwan. I don't know if you caught my recent Dany thread about this, but I'd ideally like to make a few more in that vein to explore how this might play out. I have suspicions about the broad strokes of her arc post-landing, but I haven't really come up with too many specifics. At any rate, I think a focus away from ruling and the IT might get closer to the heart of her character-- she's as much "mother" as she is "dragon," so she inherently provides the paradox of "creation from destruction," she's achieved cult-figure status, and has a history of stepping in with the oppressed, all of which leads to a sense of her being a "revolutionary" character. Anyway, I really think we're going to see a popular leader emerge in her.

I was aware of your thread, but I didn't really look at it closely until after it was locked. That's the way it goes. Too many things to do and too little time to do them. I hope you do make some more threads in the same vein.

[Nictarion]

It is debateable.

"Silver, gold, or plain, he cared nothing for the fringe."

Is the "plain" referring to the tokar itself or to the fringe. In other words the fringe is the same color as the rest of the tokar.

I've always wondered about this.

[Darkbringer]

Roman *citizens*. The majority of the subjects of the Roman Empire were not citizens.

Depends where you were. I would say in the city of Rome a very high proportion, if not majority, were freedmen or citizens. Of course the rules of citizenry changed over time.

[IRON BANK]

I applaud Dany and her motives. Anything is better than what Westeros has right now. Dany takes the moral high ground and sticks with it know matter what. This is true heroism, regardless of the critics. I actually feel at sometimes Dany is to forgiving.

[Arland]

As I pointed out in some other thread, tokar is extremely unpractical garment for anyone who does anything with his hands.

Even if you just go to a bazaar to buy something, you cannot wear tokar, since you wouldn't be able to pick up and examine any merchandize. You don't run in you tokar, you don't fight in your tokar and even if you wear tokar, you wouldn't stay in one for long, once you hear that fighting broke in the city and you want to flee, fight, hide or whatever.

.

You would wear it only if you only give commands or as a ceremonial garment on some special occasion. On Dany's way to the plazza it is stated that "slavers donned their tokars" while slaves and servants didn't.

It should be noted thou that probably many people did donned their tokars on that day and were on the plazza or it's vicinity since it was kind of "one time public event" and in the whole mess lot's of slavers were killed before they managed to escape even of they were not one of the highest elite.

So it was definitely brutal and in many ways random... in a sense "sacking" of the city in a Dothraki kind of fashion (something Gran Masters suggested Dany should do with her Unsullied on her way to Westeros), minus the rape and hurting the children, women, slaves and servants.

"“You’d like that, wouldn’t you?” Cersei did not wait for a denial. “If I’m not betrayed by my own guards, I may be able to hold here for a time. Then I can go to the walls and offer to yield to Lord Stannis in person. That will spare us the worst. But if Maegor’s Holdfast should fall before Stannis can come up, why then, most of my guests are in for a bit of rape, I’d say. And you should never rule out mutilation, torture, and murder at times like these.”
Sansa was horrified. “These are women, unarmed, and gently born.”
“Their birth protects them,” Cersei admitted, “though not as much as you’d think. Each one’s worth a good ransom, but after the madness of battle, soldiers often seem to want flesh more than coin. Even so, a golden shield is better than none. Out in the streets, the women won’t be treated near as tenderly. Nor will our servants. Pretty things like that serving wench of Lady Tanda’s could be in for a lively night, but don’t imagine the old and the infirm and the ugly will be spared. Enough drink will make blind washerwomen and reeking pig girls seem as comely as you, sweetling"

[Skagosi High Chef]

I have no sympathy for slavers, period. Nor the families of slavers, nor the people who stand idly by and allow it to go on around them. This was perhaps Dany's finest moment, and I can't believe she catches as much flack on these boards as she already does.

I can't even begin to describe how ignorant and warped this statement is and in no way supports any arguments made trying to redeem Dany's actions. Yet if this is the justifications and mind-set you believe Dany had it does go a long way toward supporting her detractors.