Daenerys the betrayer

[butterbumps!]

Oh I see. Though am not sure I can agree with this first part. Chaos notwithstanding, dragons can only add to the mix it seems to me. In fact, with their greater capacity for destruction and as major power trappings they may be sort of the drop that finally tips that balance and brings the collapse of an already frail system.

I definitely understand your point and agree to some extent. My concern about her becoming a champion of this sort is the current situation and the conquering aimed mentality she displayed in her last ADWD chapter.

I can see Dany’s actions as sort of hated and misunderstood for the present, but is future generations who might learn to see the value of them. While I do not see the whole “champion of the people” as foreseeable in the near future given the present circumstances (at least not in Westeros) there might be something to be said about her becoming one for the next generations.

Oh, apologies, I should have specified that I don't think Dany is going to retain all her dragons. In particular, I suspect that parties with less than noble motives will come into possession of one or more of them. I agree that the basic introduction of dragons ups the ante from how it's been, but I don't think Dany will hold a monopoly on them. In fact, depending on who gets ahold of them, it might be something of a blessing Dany will have one to counterbalance (I'm thinking of someone like Euron in charge of a dragon; this is good for no one). So I'm making an assumption that Viserion and Rhaegal will be lost for a time to her, and she might need to stand against them in some capacity.

I agree with you that right now, she looks set to merely burn and conquer, as per the last DwD chapter. However, I'm thinking that there's a few key pieces that have been threatening to occur, and I'm looking at Dany's past character to project how I think they might play out. Key pieces like seeing the horror of conquest for the sake of conquest as demonstrated by the Ironborn, learning about Aerys, seeing the actual state of the people of Westeros, dealing with Jon and Aegon, and realization of Long Night will make an impact on how Dany defines her aim and goal. I suspect she's going to forego the total conquest she seems to have accepted at the end of DwD, and will fold the savior role back into it upon making a few key realizations.

[jon stark I]

So you're equating a people who were persecuted for thousands of years for not giving up their god and culture with a crew who mutilated and otherwise abused young slaves to create super-warriors they sold for profit?

I am not equating them.I am not.But which post did I answered that to I can't remember really so there must have been a point I was trying to make.

[Guess who's back]

Also I hate the fact that dany thinks that she is the Moses of Essos. She brings death and destruction everywhere she goes and still believe she is a saint (or sometimes she is a little girl that knows little of anything).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Also I hate the fact that dany thinks that she is the Moses of Essos. She brings death and destruction everywhere she goes and still believe she is a saint (or sometimes she is a little girl that knows little of anything).

Let's just say that Dany is a Targ, but the worse part is that her fans act like she is a saint.

[-Winterfellian-]

Oh, apologies, I should have specified that I don't think Dany is going to retain all her dragons. In particular, I suspect that parties with less than noble motives will come into possession of one or more of them. I agree that the basic introduction of dragons ups the ante from how it's been, but I don't think Dany will hold a monopoly on them. In fact, depending on who gets ahold of them, it might be something of a blessing Dany will have one to counterbalance (I'm thinking of someone like Euron in charge of a dragon; this is good for no one). So I'm making an assumption that Viserion and Rhaegal will be lost for a time to her, and she might need to stand against them in some capacity.

I agree with you that right now, she looks set to merely burn and conquer, as per the last DwD chapter. However, I'm thinking that there's a few key pieces that have been threatening to occur, and I'm looking at Dany's past character to project how I think they might play out. Key pieces like seeing the horror of conquest for the sake of conquest as demonstrated by the Ironborn, learning about Aerys, seeing the actual state of the people of Westeros, dealing with Jon and Aegon, and realization of Long Night will make an impact on how Dany defines her aim and goal. I suspect she's going to forego the total conquest she seems to have accepted at the end of DwD, and will fold the savior role back into it upon making a few key realizations.

No need for apologies :)

About the bolded part, don’t you think that this may revert back to her in a negative way somehow? Whether it is others that caused the blunt of the damage (and I believe Dany herself will cause her share of it) she as the Targaryen/mother of dragons may be seen as the one who brought and let loose this monsters on the world or something similar. There is a lot of room for bad propaganda here. Given the details from TPATQ I confess I am a little skeptical about the common people seeing a dragon (the identity Dany herself seems to assumed after ADWD) as a savior during a war time period.

I like the notion of the key pieces she has yet to come to terms and I suppose the game changer is here are the Others. Assuming she or her dragons play a role in defeating them I suppose the question for future generations to judge will be if the weight of her actions during the battle of the Long Night counter balances the destruction her previous actions will bring following her arrival. Still I still think she has fairer chance of becoming a people’s champions in Essos, more than in Westeros.

[SeanF]

Dany was a cultural outsider to both the Dothraki and the slaves. What was operative is that she championed the masses who didn't have a voice. A mass of people without a voice exists on both continents.

Will the smallfolk care if she exercises whim over reason at all costs if they see her as someone willing to champion their cause? Or is that what your criticism of Dany is?

Dany doesn't seem to champion any religious system, and practices tolerance for all. Which mean that she's not creating obstacles to anyone from joining her.

She didn't have exposure to the hardships of slavery either. But she saw it and made it part of her platform. It would take a blind person to come to Westeros and not see the smallfolk's misery and oppression. As an outsider, Dany is less entrenched in the way the nobility doesn't register the plight of smallfolk-- they look past it not seeing. The fact that Dany would be coming from outside of this is actually a point in favor of her taking note of it and acting.

I'm not sure if she truly broke guest right-- are you referring to getting the army drunk and attacking prematurely? She's gone back on her word as a tactic to gain the upper hand, but I fail to see how this is going to pit smallfolk against her.

Yea, this is exactly why it's not important. How do you measure the price of abolition against X many lives? A great good doesn't negate the bad, but this search to quantify what's more "excusable" is pointless and hardly honest to a reading of the books. Qhorin's use of torture is not "excusable;" it's still immoral, and though you might sympathize with his reasons for doing it more, it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things. It still raises the question of "so what?" So what does it matter?

Qhorin is an easier character to sympathize with? Dany is a dark grey? Ok, what else is new? (I apologize if this sounds a little harsh, and I don't mean to direct this at you, but I really think fighting about this all the time misses the bigger points).

I could see the Smallfolk of King's Landing rallying to her, plus the Smallfolk of other districts where the Targaryens are remembered fondly.

But elsewhere? Many of the Smallfolk are strongly committed to their lords. In the North, they'd never abandon the Starks for Dany. In the Riverlands, which has suffered from the worst of the war, the BWB are working to avenge the Red Wedding and restore the Tullys to power. They're certainly not trying to overturn the basic social structure of the region. They rely on assistance from both the local peasants, and from those gentry who hate the Freys and Lannisters. In Dorne, Arianne and the Sand Snakes are hugely popular, as was Prince Oberyn. Stannis has a hard core of supporters, both among his lords and knights, and among the ordinary soldiers.

I don't know if the Tyrells, Lannisters, and Sweetrobin enjoy similar loyalty, but it wouldn't be surprising. Added to that, Dany will be arriving with Ironborn, Dothraki, sellswords, and no doubt a load of dispossessed landowners, hoping to regain their lands. Those aren't groups who the Smallfolk are likely to view favourably.

In Essos, there's a far sharper divide between slave and free, which she can exploit. And even there, the free Smallfolk have no love for her.

[El Guapo]

Astapor deserved to be sacked, it was one of Dany's finer moments.

Leaving the 3 men in charge and the chaos that followed, not one of her finer moments.

[SeanF]

No he didn't.

Are you a fortune teller or something?

Well, Robert was delighted when the battered corpses of Elia and her children were presented to him. "I see no children, only dragonspawn" reminds me of Vitellius' "dead enemies smell good, but dead Romans smell even better.". A foul remark by a moral coward, who's trying to pretend he's harder than he really is.

Had, Jon, or Dany, or Viserys been presented to him as infants, he'd lack the decency to spare them; and, he'd lack the moral courage to do his own dirty work. He'd turn to Tywin and say "can you sort this out?"

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, Robert was delighted when the battered corpses of Elia and her children were presented to him. "I see no children, only dragonspawn" reminds me of Vitellius' "dead enemies smell good, but dead Romans smell even better.". A foul remark by a moral coward, who's trying to pretend he's harder than he really is.

Had, Jon, or Dany, or Viserys been presented to him as infants, he'd lack the decency to spare them; and, he'd lack the moral courage to do his own dirty work. He'd turn to Tywin and say "can you sort this out?"

He hated Targs that's for sure and he had no reason not to hate them. But if he truly wanted Dany and Viserys dead they would be dead for years.

[Nictarion]

Let's just say that Dany is a Targ, but the worse part is that her fans act like she is a saint.

I certainly don't see any doing so.

[butterbumps!]

No need for apologies :)

About the bolded part, don’t you think that this may revert back to her in a negative way somehow? Whether it is others that caused the blunt of the damage (and I believe Dany herself will cause her share of it) she as the Targaryen/mother of dragons may be seen as the one who brought and let loose this monsters on the world or something similar. There is a lot of room for bad propaganda here. Given the details from TPATQ I confess I am a little skeptical about the common people seeing a dragon (the identity Dany herself seems to assumed after ADWD) as a savior during a war time period.

I like the notion of the key pieces she has yet to come to terms and I suppose the game changer is here are the Others. Assuming she or her dragons play a role in defeating them I suppose the question for future generations to judge will be if the weight of her actions during the battle of the Long Night counter balances the destruction her previous actions will bring following her arrival. Still I still think she has fairer chance of becoming a people’s champions in Essos, more than in Westeros.

I agree that this could be a double edged sword for her. I think a lot will depend on how she uses the dragons, though-- who and what will she be fighting, who's being hurt, etc.

As you know, I loathe dragons, so I'm not truly keen on the idea of them anywhere near Westeros, and generally, I would agree that they are despicable monsters, and may be a hindrance to her PR.

That said, I'm suspecting that the following might occur. I think Dany might arrive in Westeros as a conqueror, but due to a few events that are primed to occur, I think she'll end up as a popular champion in some capacity. Not necessarily to all the smallfolk, but I suspect she'll take up a more humanist cause. I foresee her leaving this and heading North once the issue of the Others becomes apparent. Now, I'm skeptical about how profitable dragons are against Others, but I'm positive they will be tremendous help against wight armies. My thought is that she gains some degree of favor by the smallfolk, leaves that to deal with wights/ Long Night issues, and doesn't return to finish the smallfolk, or any other political cause (I suspect either she might die or leave).

But my thought is that depending on how she's using the dragon (I'd imagine the smallfolk will be thrilled if she's going against Euron, for example, or to champion their cause, or to kill wights) that she's got a pretty good shot of making herself loved by many. I suspect a lot of people will not like her-- namely lords-- but based on the way she's a cult leader to the oppressed, I think much of the masses might appreciate her being there.

I could see the Smallfolk of King's Landing rallying to her, plus the Smallfolk of other districts where the Targaryens are remembered fondly.

But elsewhere? Many of the Smallfolk are strongly committed to their lords. In the North, they'd never abandon the Starks for Dany. In the Riverlands, which has suffered from the worst of the war, the BWB are working to avenge the Red Wedding and restore the Tullys to power. They're certainly not trying to overturn the basic social structure of the region. They rely on assistance from both the local peasants, and from those gentry who hate the Freys and Lannisters. In Dorne, Arianne and the Sand Snakes are hugely popular, as was Prince Oberyn. Stannis has a hard core of supporters, both among his lords and knights, and among the ordinary soldiers.

I don't know if the Tyrells, Lannisters, and Sweetrobin enjoy similar loyalty, but it wouldn't be surprising. Added to that, Dany will be arriving with Ironborn, Dothraki, sellswords, and no doubt a load of dispossessed landowners, hoping to regain their lands. Those aren't groups who the Smallfolk are likely to view favourably.

In Essos, there's a far sharper divide between slave and free, which she can exploit. And even there, the free Smallfolk have no love for her.

There's a fainter line between smallfolk and nobility in Westeros, but this might actually work in her favor in terms of more immediate results. As in, there's less a void to deal with in terms of the way society manifests in Westeros. The other thing is that the lessened void between classes is part of why the smallfolk are already able to articulate their dissatisfaction. That is, there weren't slave revolts prior to Dany; she sparked the revolts, and that's part of what made that system so overturned-- there wasn't already a grassroots movement. In Westeros, though, the grassroots issue is already there and fomenting. It's actually reaching a tipping point from below.

In terms of who might follow her, yes, I was imagining that KL and the Riverlands might appreciate her becoming a figurehead. The Reach might also be inclined, given the Ironborn unpleasantness there. I don't think she needs all smallfolk behind her in order to make some kind of impact as a champion of the smallfolk or anything.

But the North is going to be an interesting case. I'm not seeing smallfolk rights as being a huge concern there. Their problem is the Long Night-- which is something she's going to be able to help out with undoubtedly. I'm not seeing the North rallying behind her as a populist champion, but I can see them appreciating her as someone preventing them from becoming wights.

[JungWheats]

Late to the topic, but I always feel the need to pop in when the morality of slavery comes up.

Fuck the slavers, fuck everyone who profits off of slavery, they all deserve to die. Dany's only mistake here was not staying in Astapor to consolidate her power and create a vision for an abolitionist society. She attacked the city from a position of moral reprehension; she felt that she had the power to put a stop to something that is, beyond a doubt, morally evil, and she stood up and did what was necessary. The whole economy and social order in Slaver's Bay is based on enslaving people--putting them to hard labor, forcing them into sexual slavery, genitally mutilating them, murdering babies in front of mothers, sending 8 year old girls to brothels to be butt-fucked by anyone with money, etc. etc.

No civilized species should be able to allow this sort of thing to go on. If Monacco decided tomorrow to become the new slavery mecca of the world where you can buy and sell people for any use or purpose, I would hope that we'd be sending drones to blast those cats in their homes.

Dany attacked without really thinking beyond the moral aspects, thus had no vision for what she would do with the city after she took it, or what the people would do with freedom and how they would support themselves. That was dumb, but to have taken all the soldiers from the city and then allowed them to raise up a fresh crop of Unsullied and continue their lifestyle would have been an atrocity as well.

If she had taken the time to stay, consolidated her power behind a willing populace, and really ensured that Astapor was a good model of an abolitionist society, slave revolts would have popped up everywhere within a few years.

Anything Dany does that originates from a moral belief that "slavery is wrong" is going to make her an enemy of the elite class. So its either be complicit in the slave trade, or make the elites her enemy.

Not really a choice there to me.

[RoamingRonin]

He hated Targs that's for sure and he had no reason not to hate them. But if he truly wanted Dany and Viserys dead they would be dead for years.

What did Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon ever do to him?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What did Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon ever do to him?

I am sorry, but I haven't read a book where he killed them.

[RoamingRonin]

I am sorry, but I haven't read a book where he killed them.

I never said he did.

You said he had no reason to hate the Targaryens but why hate the most innocent members of the family? Why despise them so much to consider them dragonspawn? Why do you think he had reasons to hate them?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I never said he did.

You said he had no reason to hate the Targaryens but why hate the most innocent members of the family? Why despise them so much to consider them dragonspawn? Why do you think he had reasons to hate them?

Why not? If someone had destroyed my life I would hate all of them.

edit: He did hated them but he didn't hurted them.

[Nictarion]

Why not? If someone had destroyed my life I would hate all of them.

Kind of like Dany's view on the usurpers dogs?

[Skagosi High Chef]

I never said he did.

You said he had no reason to hate the Targaryens but why hate the most innocent members of the family? Why despise them so much to consider them dragonspawn? Why do you think he had reasons to hate them?

Isn't that what Dany did though by killing 13 year old boys? A pre-emptive strike, they were just going to grow up and be evil slavers anyway right? Dany is both easily distracted and has tunnel vision. She will also justify any action she commits as do many of her loyal supporters both in fiction and reality.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Isn't that what Dany did though by killing 13 year old boys? A pre-emptive strike, they were just going to grow up and be evil slavers anyway right? Dany is both easily distracted and has tunnel vision. She will also justify any action she commits as do many of her loyal supporters both in fiction and reality.

But they wear wearing tokars! They were evil!

[KingOfTheDirewolves]

So OP, slavery is ok to you?