R + L = J v 70

[Lyse Stark]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths some will go to deny R+L=J.

Indeed and they will be disappointed when R+L=J is confirmed.

[FittleLinger]

Indeed and they will be disappointed when R+L=J is confirmed.

Ah, deep inside they know it's true, so they will not really be disappointed :P

[Aeron_Damphair]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths some will go to deny R+L=J.

I remember when I first caught wind of it. I was disappointed, largely because I hadn't figured it out on my own. Because of this I tried to work out in my head every angle that might allow for the possibility that there was something more to it than the theory as pinned.

While I do think the drama surrounding the reveal and some of the peripheral details may very well blow everyone's mind, to argue that the theory isn't essentially as ironclad as it has any right to be at this point in the story, or that some other theories have anything approaching legitimately competitive merit is an assault on common sense.

There is even the textbook projection that you see from typical people involved in making losing arguments-- accusing the other side of bias by looking at the clues to fit their own view or looking at the legitimacy as a kind of wish fulfillment. As I said it reads like any modern religion/science controversy to me and it's so transparent when you're sort of on the outside looking in. It's frustrating and easy to get sucked into, but I'm going to endeavor to stay out of such discussions from now on.

[Ser Creighton]

And while it seemed Henry genuinely loved Elizabeth of York, he was also threatened by who she was, which is why he exerted such control over her.

He could have also had a sincerely jealous nature.

It does seem though that Margaret also got on well with Elizabeth and even protected Elizabeths sister, Cecily from a later scandal.

Well Henry was a control freak to begin with. His reign is by and large one of fear and oppression. I would not say he wanted to control Elizabeth but rather keep her close to him. He was always paranoid of plots, he was reclusive and secretive, he had a massive spy network. Henry was never loved but feared, Elizabeth however was a York, and very much loved. She was his true claim to the throne, without her he would of never had the support to take and hold the throne. By his own words Henry wanted people in fear of him at his pleasure, and in debt to him. He never really had much of a claim but Elizabeth and their sons?

When Stanley the man who basically put him on the throne turned against Henry do to his abuse of law, bribery, threats and taxing, he became incredibly paranoid.

Margaret was very much like Henry, she was very much about creating a dynasty how she felt about Elizabeth is not well known but she was very much a control freak, and Henry went to great lengths to supply her with power.

I don't tend to associate Jon and Henry, having a young mother was never uncommon in the Middle Ages. The Tudors were not really Royals and Henry was not born in hiding, Wales was his home, that's where the Tudors are from. The Tudors were by and large a legitimized bastard line. His father was not killed on the battlefield but died of the plague as a prisoner. His father was a rebel. He knew his mother his whole life, he went into exile a few times but was never a hidden this or that. And his personality is nothing like Jon's. There was a famous case where Henry framed a merchant in order to extort gold from him, which was not uncommon for Henry, who very much loved gold, power, and was always concerned about his dynasty and legacy. Really he reminds me more of Tywin in terms of personality and Joanna reminds me of Elizabeth. In this case Tyrion would of been the third child, the one Elizabeth died in labor with. Arthur the first son was also arranged to and wed with Princess Catherine of Spain. Jo tried to arrange a marriage between Jaime and Elia of Dorne.

I agree that Martin does not really use direct or full parallels, but rather he has influences. Henry's birth could of played a part in influencing Jon's birth, but his personality may have influenced Tywin, where Ivanhoe may have influenced Jon's character development in some ways, plus Martins own imagination and what he wants from the character, and his own personality and beliefs playing a part. Most characters are a mixed bag.

The Winter King may sound like a cool name but it was not an endearing one.

[J. Stargaryen]

I remember when I first caught wind of it. I was disappointed, largely because I hadn't figured it out on my own. Because of this I tried to work out in my head every angle that might allow for the possibility that there was something more to it than the theory as pinned.

While I do think the drama surrounding the reveal and some of the peripheral details may very well blow everyone's mind, to argue that the theory isn't essentially as ironclad as it has any right to be at this point in the story, or that some other theories have anything approaching legitimately competitive merit is an assault on common sense.

There is even the textbook projection that you see from typical people involved in making losing arguments-- accusing the other side of bias by looking at the clues to fit their own view or looking at the legitimacy as a kind of wish fulfillment. As I said it reads like any modern religion/science controversy to me and it's so transparent when you're sort of on the outside looking in. It's frustrating and easy to get sucked into, but I'm going to endeavor to stay out of such discussions from now on.

:agree:

I couldn't agree more. I actually concur with the whole post, but especially the bold. I've even made an evolution/creationism analogy in the past. On the one side, you have all of the evidence. On the other...

[Lyse Stark]

Well Henry was a control freak to begin with. His reign is by and large one of fear and oppression. I would not say he wanted to control Elizabeth but rather keep her close to him. He was always paranoid of plots, he was reclusive and secretive, he had a massive spy network. Henry was never loved but feared, Elizabeth however was a York, and very much loved. She was his true claim to the throne, without her he would of never had the support to take and hold the throne. By his own words Henry wanted people in fear of him at his pleasure, and in debt to him. He never really had much of a claim but Elizabeth and their sons?

When Stanley the man who basically put him on the throne turned against Henry do to his abuse of law, bribery, threats and taxing, he became incredibly paranoid.

Margaret was very much like Henry, she was very much about creating a dynasty how she felt about Elizabeth is not well known but she was very much a control freak, and Henry went to great lengths to supply her with power.

I don't tend to associate Jon and Henry, having a young mother was never uncommon in the Middle Ages. The Tudors were not really Royals and Henry was not born in hiding, Wales was his home, that's where the Tudors are from. The Tudors were by and large a legitimized bastard line. His father was not killed on the battlefield but died of the plague as a prisoner. His father was a rebel. He knew his mother his whole life, he went into exile a few times but was never a hidden this or that. And his personality is nothing like Jon's. There was a famous case where Henry framed a merchant in order to extort gold from him, which was not uncommon for Henry, who very much loved gold, power, and was always concerned about his dynasty and legacy. Really he reminds me more of Tywin in terms of personality and Joanna reminds me of Elizabeth. In this case Tyrion would of been the third child, the one Elizabeth died in labor with. Arthur the first son was also arranged to and wed with Princess Catherine of Spain. Jo tried to arrange a marriage between Jaime and Elia of Dorne.

I agree that Martin does not really use direct or full parallels, but rather he has influences. Henry's birth could of played a part in influencing Jon's birth, but his personality may have influenced Tywin, where Ivanhoe may have influenced Jon's character development in some ways, plus Martins own imagination and what he wants from the character, and his own personality and beliefs playing a part. Most characters are a mixed bag.

The Winter King may sound like a cool name but it was not an endearing one.

And the fact that Henry VI was a control freak ended up working against him in my opinion. I have always thought that his rule, while unpopular, was also strict on spending because the previous rulers were very spendthrift, and the previous regime before Henry VI also reflected that aspect in the Baratheon-Lannister Dynasty. I think Jon will recognize that problem, and extert a tighter control of money.

But there will be major differences between Jon Snow and Henry VI. While the latter had a love of opulence and gold, Jon is a man of austere taste and simplicity. Where Henry VI abused powers, Jon wouldn't dare, as he see it as dishonourable. And as a result of his Stark upbringing, I think Jon wouldn't dare show off all the wealth, as he sees it as poor taste, especially when the small folk are starving. And unlike Henry VI's taste for heavy brocades and jewelled doublets, Jon would be dressed all in black, and wearing no jewels, as per his character.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Indeed and they will be disappointed when R+L=J is confirmed.

If it looks like a duck and walks/quack/flies like a duck, it is a duck.

Boath Raeghar and Lyanna are described as beautiful yet Jon is "sullen" faced what ever that means like Eddard.

[Alia of the knife]

And the fact that Henry VI was a control freak ended up working against him in my opinion. I have always thought that his rule, while unpopular, was also strict on spending because the previous rulers were very spendthrift, and the previous regime before Henry VI also reflected that aspect in the Baratheon-Lannister Dynasty. I think Jon will recognize that problem, and extert a tighter control of money.

But there will be major differences between Jon Snow and Henry VI. While the latter had a love of opulence and gold, Jon is a man of austere taste and simplicity. Where Henry VI abused powers, Jon wouldn't dare, as he see it as dishonourable. And as a result of his Stark upbringing, I think Jon wouldn't dare show off all the wealth, as he sees it as poor taste, especially when the small folk are starving. And unlike Henry VI's taste for heavy brocades and jewelled doublets, Jon would be dressed all in black, and wearing no jewels, as per his character.

Exactly, because of all the chaos before him if Jon sits the throne, he will perforce have to be strict.

There was another theory that the Starks were much wealthier than people thought,

(they just didnt advertise it), and that the Lannisters and Tyrells are blowing through their fortunes, so it will be a broke kingdom as much as broken.

As a misc. side note, the family name of the man who killed the little Plantaganet princes, (allegedly on the word of Richard), was named Tyrell.

[Ser Creighton]

And the fact that Henry VI was a control freak ended up working against him in my opinion. I have always thought that his rule, while unpopular, was also strict on spending because the previous rulers were very spendthrift, and the previous regime before Henry VI also reflected that aspect in the Baratheon-Lannister Dynasty. I think Jon will recognize that problem, and extert a tighter control of money.

But there will be major differences between Jon Snow and Henry VI. While the latter had a love of opulence and gold, Jon is a man of austere taste and simplicity. Where Henry VI abused powers, Jon wouldn't dare, as he see it as dishonourable. And as a result of his Stark upbringing, I think Jon wouldn't dare show off all the wealth, as he sees it as poor taste, especially when the small folk are starving. And unlike Henry VI's taste for heavy brocades and jewelled doublets, Jon would be dressed all in black, and wearing no jewels, as per his character.

Henry the VII fell into the typical traps of money, but no he spent quiet a bit, he also lined his pockets. Henry built lavish homes, plastered the Tudor rose on everything, gave away gold as gifts, Henry believed if he had all the gold he could control everyone basically. He forced everyone he could into debt with him, he had his good behavior tax. You ever see his mausoleum. I can very much see Martin being drawn to Henry because he had a lot of bad, and darkness, but also had good qualities in regards to his wife.

Here is an hour long documentary on Henry VII, it's really good and very insightful. Love how they go back reading his old hand written journals. Henry made the Tudors rich by basically taking all the gold he could anyway he could. You know how Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. Well Henry stole from everyone to give to Henry. The first thing they did when Henry died was frame and kill his Lawyer. Which is fitting sense his lawyer kept framing everyone else and then fining them impossible fines.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6K5_gcu9Boo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6K5_gcu9Boo

[Ygrain]

If it looks like a duck and walks/quack/flies like a duck, it is a duck.

Some claim it might still be a donkey.

Boath Raeghar and Lyanna are described as beautiful yet Jon is "sullen" faced what ever that means like Eddard.

sullen:

1. Showing a brooding ill humor or silent resentment; morose or sulky.

2. Gloomy or somber in tone, color, or portent: sullen, gray skies.

3. Sluggish; slow: the sullen current of a canal.

Can't see what it has to do with beauty, but the sulkiness fits with Rhaegar quite fine :D

[Alia of the knife]

On the big reveal, speaking for me at least, the secret is a distraction and I could focus on the whole of the story better instead of biting my lip at each chapter, wondering if this is "it."

[Lyse Stark]

Exactly, because of all the chaos before him if Jon sits the throne, he will perforce have to be strict.

There was another theory that the Starks were much wealthier than people thought,

(they just didnt advertise it), and that the Lannisters and Tyrells are blowing through their fortunes, so it will be a broke kingdom as much as broken.

As a misc. side note, the family name of the man who killed the little Plantaganet princes, (allegedly on the word of Richard), was named Tyrell.

I wouldn't be surprised if both the Tyrells and the Lannister had their wardenships revoked after they impoverished themselves with their expensive tastes (Arbor Gold, heavy brocades, cloth-of-golds and lavish feasts come to my minds) and their political ambitions.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Some claim it might still be a donkey.

sullen:

1. Showing a brooding ill humor or silent resentment; morose or sulky.

2. Gloomy or somber in tone, color, or portent: sullen, gray skies.

3. Sluggish; slow: the sullen current of a canal.

Can't see what it has to do with beauty, but the sulkiness fits with Rhaegar quite fine :D

sullen

ˈsʌlən/

adjective

adjective: sullen

1.

bad-tempered and sulky.

"a sullen pout"

synonyms:

surly, sulky, pouting, sour, morose, resentful, glum, moody, gloomy, joyless, frowning, glowering, grumpy, touchy, peevish, indignant, embittered;

bad-tempered, ill-tempered, cross, angry, testy;

unresponsive, uncommunicative, unsociable, uncivil, unmannerly, unfriendly;

informalstroppy

Pretty ain´t on the list.

[Ygrain]

Pretty ain´t on the list.

That's kinda like complaining that an apple is not pear-shaped.

Sullen is a psychical property, not physical.

[Ser Creighton]

On the big reveal, speaking for me at least, the secret is a distraction and I could focus on the whole of the story better instead of biting my lip at each chapter, wondering if this is "it."

I really don't focus on the secret, I think it's pretty well excepted. I actually am just curious about the facts surrounding it, I may actually be more interested in knowing if Rhaegar did have visions, his motivations, Lyanna's motivations, where she was taken etc...

Meant to ask have you read The Plantagenet series by Thomas Costain, the Last Plantagenets and the series as a whole is suppose to be sitting on Martins book shelf, and he has mentioned them before. I know you like history, so if you haven't you always could. Though I don't know how much relevance it will have as it really is a sort of mix and match with the characters.

Here is an interesting interview as well with a minor historian who follows the series and has a site. Just came across it. He thinks Dany is more Henry VII. Don't fully agree with it, but when do I fully agree with anything but it's interesting. Plus the site is called Nerdalicious. You got to at least look at something called that.

[Fred of Ashai]

Irregardless, you are admitting that you do not have the family tree "in hand" to say that Alys is a descendant, while the original line stated it as fact. It is not fact that Alys is a descendant of Bael. There are more inconsistencies in your theory, but let me lay one at your feet. How does Alys visit in anyway equate to "growing" at the Wall?

I think when Alys went from child-prisoner to married woman whose marriage sealed the alliance with the Thenn, she underwent a great transformation. That happened at the Wall.

[UVA]

I think when Alys went from child-prisoner to married woman whose marriage sealed the alliance with the Thenn, she underwent a great transformation. That happened at the Wall.

Since apparently this has no bearing on Jon's parentage, the multiple references linking not only Lyanna but Rhaegar to blue winter roses, Fred I think you'll get a whole lot of more mileage out of your pet theory on the Heresy threads.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think when Alys went from child-prisoner to married woman whose marriage sealed the alliance with the Thenn, she underwent a great transformation. That happened at the Wall.

You know, someone who actually has a connection to blue roses might be undergoing a "great transformation" following recent events.

[Fred of Ashai]

I'll add to this. The wording of the story makes it sound like the guy who killed Bael's son was his bannerman. One of his lords. If it had occurred before the Starks fully subjugated the Boltons, then the Boltons would have been kings in their own right and could not accurately be called bannermen of the Starks. Just like it's odd for Ygritte to refer to Brandon as a lord if in fact he had been a king; you'd think the wildlings, who are far less "up" on southern politics, would default to calling the Starks kings, just because that's what they had been for so long. Yet she specifically refers to the title of lord, and the kingsroad, which by northern standards is absolutely modern.

As for this seeming "inconsistency" with the Bolton killing the Stark, it actually makes perfect thematic sense and could even be called foreshadowing. It's easy to write the story off because at that time, Boltons shouldn't have been killing Starks in such a way. (Why you would use that as your hangnail and ignore all the other bits that contradict your idea, I couldn't say.) But perhaps it's a subtle reminder that the Boltons have never been fully loyal and have been known to rise up and rebel even long after they allegedly came under the power of Winterfell. Like, say, Roose Bolton turning on Robb Stark.

I say all of this as someone who thinks the Bael story is just a legend and probably never actually happened. But even if it did, absolutely nothing points to Alys being a descendant of Bael. Even if you do buy that it's a 1,000 years old (and there's more to suggest that it isn't than that it is), the Karstarks split off about 1,000 years ago. So even if it is about some Bolton killing a Stark from 1,000 years ago, there's still absolutely no way to know if it came pre- or post-Karstark split. In which case, arguing that the flower on the Wall is Alys makes even less sense and is even shakier than it already was.

According to Theon, the Boltons were subjugated 1,000 years ago. That is when they stopped flaying Starks (Theon suspects there might have been people flayed later but he doesn't know; if a Bolton had rebelled and slain and flayed a Stark lord in the last 300 years, and Ygritte knew about it,Theon would know that).

So Bael lived 1,000 years ago or more. The Karstarks split off 1,000 years ago. I am comfortable that Alys is descended from Bael.

I don't think the fact Ygritte talks about Lord Brandon means anything. Ned says the old Kings in the North were both Lords of Winterfell and Kings in the North. Ygritte says she does 't think Winterfell is in the north--she says it is in the south. So it is logical that she would refer to the Stark in Winterfell by his other title, Lord Stark.

Finally, when you talk about themes, keep in mind that Alys' story is all about how a prophecy can be misinterpreted (Melisandre has a vision of Alys and thinks it is a vision of Arya). I think this is a hint that people who associate the blue rose with Jon are mistaken.

[Ghost's Shadow]

And like Dany would give a *cough* about Alys Karstark.