Lyse Stark Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 You know, someone who actually has a connection to blue roses might be undergoing a "great transformation" following recent events.Exactly. He is transforming after his stabbing and the new Jon will not be afraid to make sacrifices to save the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 There is even the textbook projection that you see from typical people involved in making losing arguments-- accusing the other side of bias by looking at the clues to fit their own view or looking at the legitimacy as a kind of wish fulfillment. As I said it reads like any modern religion/science controversy to me and it's so transparent when you're sort of on the outside looking in. It's frustrating and easy to get sucked into, but I'm going to endeavor to stay out of such discussions from now on. It does rather look that way. One significant distinction is that, presumably, we are going to get a straight answer from God on this one without having to die first. There are other distinctions. For instance, if God declines to issue the revelation in the next book, and the series is limited to seven books, it will be apparent it's coming in that last one. Ergo, widespread betting will begin as the last book's pub date approaches. Those who support the dominant theory, to demonstrate their support, will have to offer exceptionally good odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambottle Jeebus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I have 1 question regarding R+L=J ..... Why wouldn't Ned Stark simply tell Catelyn , that, in fact, Jon is Lyanna's?surely, he should be able to trust his wife ? it would have stopped a whole lotta awkwardness in the Stark house.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Exactly. He is transforming after his stabbing and the new Jon will not be afraid to make sacrifices to save the realm. :thumbsup: I have 1 question regarding R+L=J ..... Why wouldn't Ned Stark simply tell Catelyn , that, in fact, Jon is Lyanna's? surely, he should be able to trust his wife ? it would have stopped a whole lotta awkwardness in the Stark house.... Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. - AGoT, Eddard VIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ned was thinking after he talked to Cersei what Cat would do if it were a choice between Jon or one of her own children. The fact is, Cat wasn't really that trust worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron_Damphair Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I have 1 question regarding R+L=J ..... Why wouldn't Ned Stark simply tell Catelyn , that, in fact, Jon is Lyanna's? surely, he should be able to trust his wife ? it would have stopped a whole lotta awkwardness in the Stark house.... I hear this objection frequently as in it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't tell Catelyn. I totally disagree with the sentiment. It is already enough of a burden for him to bear to carry this secret around for the rest of his life. Even if he could completely and utterly trust Cat to keep the secret it just wasn't something that he was at liberty to risk or that he would have felt worth the risk. The best way to keep the secret is to tell absolutely no one and that includes a still very young Catelyn. Ned "promised" Lyanna after all. This is literally the most sensitive piece of information in all of the seven kingdoms and it isn't something he could have entrusted with ANYONE, ideally not even himself. Remember, he barely knew Catelyn when he first returned from war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UVA Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ned was thinking after he talked to Cersei what Cat would do if it were a choice between Jon or one of her own children. The fact is, Cat wasn't really that trust worthy.Bullshit. This makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron_Damphair Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Also, in the other thread, people were talking about Ned silencing the rumors pertaining to Ashara Dayne as though it somehow poked a hole in the R+L theory. I totally disagree with that being a problem as well. Ned silencing the Ashara Dayne whispers serves multiple functions in the narrative. A. Ned doesn't want to bring undue dishonor to her name by having her involved in rumors of being the mother of his bastard. B. She's dead (hypothetically) so any potential questioning of her character is especially inappropriate especially when she had no part in Ned's dishonor. C. It's a convenient red herring for GRRM if readers consider her a suspect at first glance. In the show you even get an extra red herring very early. King Robert asks Ned about the common girl "Bessy with the tits." This is obviously out of character for Ned, but non book readers don't know enough about him yet so it's a nice misdirection for TV purposes. Then you get the "Wylla" drop and you think it is a satisfactory answer, but then Ned becomes incredibly curt and the dialogue goes no farther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron_Damphair Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Bullshit. This makes no sense. I don't weigh it as heavily as Winds of Winter blow cold, but I do generally agree insomuch as Ned couldn't be sure that Cat could be trusted with the bombshell. I don't think Winds of Winter blow cold was necessarily insinuating that Catelyn was especially untrustworthy, but that seems to be the way you read it. I just don't think anybody could be trusted with it and Ned barely trusted himself with it, or at least didn't enjoy being in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Exactly, because of all the chaos before him if Jon sits the throne, he will perforce have to be strict.There was another theory that the Starks were much wealthier than people thought,(they just didnt advertise it), and that the Lannisters and Tyrells are blowing through their fortunes, so it will be a broke kingdom as much as broken.As a misc. side note, the family name of the man who killed the little Plantaganet princes, (allegedly on the word of Richard), was named Tyrell. I wouldn't be surprised if both the Tyrells and the Lannister had their wardenships revoked after they impoverished themselves with their expensive tastes (Arbor Gold, heavy brocades, cloth-of-golds and lavish feasts come to my minds) and their political ambitions. Jon doesn't need jewels anymore than Baelor Breakspear did, even Aegon the Conqueror seemed to avoid jewels and pomp with a simple crown of Valyrian steel with four square cut rubies and his thrown being made of swords with no gilding. You know, someone who actually has a connection to blue roses might be undergoing a "great transformation" following recent events.A blue rose blooming at the Wall, or a someone of royal blood maturing, finally the man being born with the last of the boy killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambottle Jeebus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 In response to Aeron Damphair a few threads ago: Don't get me wrong, I agree with the R+L theory....but I also like being devil's advocateIt just bothers me that Jon is treated like shit by Catelyn, and Ned just stands there stoic as a statue, not speaking up.At first, yah, I see the point of not telling... but after a 15 year marriage? all the potential fights between Cat/Ned or Cat/Jon that resulted from not telling the truth... Holding Jon's parentage from Cat just doesn't seem fair for Jon... or Ned for that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Jon doesn't need jewels anymore than Baelor Breakspear did, even Aegon the Conqueror seemed to avoid jewels and pomp with a simple crown of Valyrian steel with four square cut rubies and his thrown being made of swords. with no gilding. And you might remember my post about Jon eschewing jewels and pomp; it fits perfectly in his character to look at them and see superficiality and greed. And I know he would prefer to be dressed plainly; this aspect would serve to make him more approachable to the small folk. Henry VII was spendthrift; Jon may be the opposite because he has seen how the people suffer when the rulers spend on things that are unnecessary to the welfare of the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 "He isn't even mine, bitch"That's what Catelyn would have got if Ned confessed.Regardless of all other stuff, risk, etc. He isn't even mine, after 15 years, that's what I'm telling you. And him. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I really don't focus on the secret, I think it's pretty well excepted. I actually am just curious about the facts surrounding it, I may actually be more interested in knowing if Rhaegar did have visions, his motivations, Lyanna's motivations, where she was taken etc...Meant to ask have you read The Plantagenet series by Thomas Costain, the Last Plantagenets and the series as a whole is suppose to be sitting on Martins book shelf, and he has mentioned them before. I know you like history, so if you haven't you always could. Though I don't know how much relevance it will have as it really is a sort of mix and match with the characters. Here is an interesting interview as well with a minor historian who follows the series and has a site. Just came across it. He thinks Dany is more Henry VII. Don't fully agree with it, but when do I fully agree with anything but it's interesting. Plus the site is called Nerdalicious. You got to at least look at something called that.Thanks!:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capp Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I have always figured that either Jon or Dany is Azor Ahai reborn and the other is Nissa Nissa. And, that's part of the bittersweet ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambottle Jeebus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 FittleLinger,that was too funny lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisenan69 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Because he hates Rhaegar. Isn't that the truth ? Thank you for saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Don't get me wrong, I agree with the R+L theory....but I also like being devil's advocateIt just bothers me that Jon is treated like shit by Catelyn, and Ned just stands there stoic as a statue, not speaking up.At first, yah, I see the point of not telling... but after a 15 year marriage? all the potential fights between Cat/Ned or Cat/Jon that resulted from not telling the truth... Holding Jon's parentage from Cat just doesn't seem fair for Jon... or Ned for that matterCat is already mistrustful of Jon for presenting a hypothetical danger to her trueborn children. Telling her that he is an actual ticking bomb of real danger would make her fears even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Isn't that the truth ? Thank you for saying it. Never met the guy, who is in any case a character in a work of fiction, so "hate" is entirely the wrong word. That being said, I do consider him vastly overrated on these here pages :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Never met the guy, who is in any case a character in a work of fiction, so "hate" is entirely the wrong word. That being said, I do consider him vastly overrated on these here pages :cool4: Preposterous. The realm never saw a more beautiful, noble man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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