LGBTQI Thread - An Ode to Lesbians

[Robin Of House Hill]

I think you've answered your own question, then. I understand your concern that the result of surgery might not live up to your expectations. It is only natural. On that point, I can only say that when I transitioned, I had two friends that I was closer to than the others. We used the same surgeon. I was the 2nd of the 3 to have surgery. We kept in touch afterward, for about 1-1/2 years and I have no reason to doubt that they were happy with their results, as was I.

Have I ever heard of someone who was unhappy with the results of surgery? Yes, but I suspect that in her case, the problem wasn't physical. She was a lot like me. She kept her emotions bottled up, as I did and after some bad experiences, avoided relationships, as did I. I was just luckier than she was because I was finally able to convince my brain that this was something I was allowed to do. I don't think it is something you need worry about.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I admit I got a chuckle over this.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/04/17/3428119/prop-8-daughter-gay/

[Sci-2]

I admit I got a chuckle over this.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/04/17/3428119/prop-8-daughter-gay/

If his defense was based on procreation, maybe he took the case just to fail. Though more likely the secular case against gay marriage is a joke so all defenses fall short.

=-=-=

He to she - Transformation is sold as an instant miracle — but for transsexual people the journey is slow and painful

...I remember one article in a women’s magazine about someone who was ‘Born a Man’. At the time, I didn’t think about how stupid this phrase was: I was too dazzled by the photographs of a person reclining, her palm resting where her forehead met her long, blonde hair. ‘Now I’m a Beautiful Woman!’ screamed the headline. Clearly, the photographs were the story. In her past, the woman looked like any boy, neither exceptionally attractive nor unattractive. Now, she could have been a model. I didn’t care: although I knew deep down that I wanted to be a woman, I had no interest in fashion, and I soon realised that this article wasn’t for me.

In the Sunday People, I saw an ad for a company called Transformation. ‘From He To She … Instantly!’ it promised, above photos of a stubbly, balding man and a glamorous woman in heavy make-up, brunette wig and pretty dress. It was designed to sell feminising products to male-born people who cross-dressed or were transsexual. I was skeptical about what they sold to stop facial hair growth or to develop a bust, thinking this would require more than some miracle cream or stuffing something inside a bra. The ad seemed like it came from another world; yet it made me feel that transition might be possible, even if I still didn’t really know how.

The adult me, cannier and more cynical, can see that ‘before and after’ photographs have the strange effect of masking the process of change even as they appear to reveal it. I still see the ruse all the time, in the same tabloids that my parents read during my teens, notably the Daily Mail. And it’s a stalwart on pop culture websites, the main weapon in both malicious attempts to undermine someone’s identity, as well as seemingly sympathetic articles. Recently, the shortcomings of ‘before and after’ were exposed when a number of high-profile transsexual people, such as American actress Alexis Arquette, Chaz Bono (child of Sonny and Cher) and Hollywood film director Lana Wachowski, came out. With Arquette in particular, who was constantly in the public eye, and whose film roles include a memorable performance as the young cross-dresser Georgette in Last Exit to Brooklyn (1989) — there was no point in trying to pretend that she had changed overnight; so instead of trading on ‘before and after’, media outlets studied old images for gradual movement, scanning for any ‘signs’ they had missed...

[Galactus]

If his defense was based on procreation, maybe he took the case just to fail. Though more likely the secular case against gay marriage is a joke so all defenses fall short.

It's entirely possible he doesen't support the Proposition per se, but still consider it to be legal. Lawayers do that kind of thing.

IE: I wouldn't neccessarily equate a lawayer's arguments in court to his or her personal views.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Happy Easter to those who follow this thread.

[Robin Of House Hill]

I think I've fallen in love with the Australian Air force. If only the US was as sensible as this.

[brook]

That is excellent :-)

[Theda Baratheon]

It's a year or two since I read it, but I thought Norah Vincent also primarily attributed her breakdown to pretending to be a man when she wasn't, I don't think someone transitioning for a reason like career success is even going to remotely cope with it - Norah didn't even have to deal with hormone induced gender dysphoria (unless in this hypothetical the person isn't undergoing medical transition, just social).

Another novel which deals with sex changes from a less advanced point of knowledge about sex is Steel Beach by John Varley. I read it when I thought I was bigender and despite not being perfect on this front I still enjoyed it, it's set in a future where Earth has been lost and humans are living in technologically advanced societies on the moon and other planets/moons. Tech has advanced to the point where people are able to change their sex when they get bored with their life (they also have life extension techniques) and it includes all appropriate reproductive organs etc as well, along with going to a designer to get your new face in current fashion. It's treated as an extremely common thing in this society.

In real world news, a model Geena Rocero, has come out as a trans woman in a TED talk today. The talk itself isn't up yet, that's just a blog piece. I know it will continue to concern Robin that visibility grows, but I can only view this sort of thing as a huge deal and continuing to improve visibility that trans people are just people like everyone else.

I'm hesitant to post this link, and this thread probably isn't the ideal place for it but it's less likely to get jumped on by people who aren't willing to talk it through in good faith in here. It's a short piece by a trans lesbian on being a misandrist and isn't apologetic for it. I post it because while I don't go as far as her, and depending on context I do apologise for it, it certainly describes the path of some of my feelings and I get the impression from online interactions that it's not uncommon amongst trans lesbians...personally I feel like I've been so damaged by (these are all lumped in together and it's not meant to apply to individuals) men/manhood/masculinity/societal expectations around these things, then I combine it with all the sexist shit I observe in life and on the internet and that's where it ends up. I'm very conscious of this, and to the best of my ability do not let a bias from this influence my stances on advocacy issues (see my argument in the condom holes/assault thread, or just any time we discuss mens issues in feminism), but at the end of the day I am a misandrist and I don't really welcome new men into my social circle, while I ache to expand it with more women and specifically queer women.

Another specific example I know who has felt like this is Julia Serano as she discusses how essentially her misandry and fear of men (and let me be clear, there is a very large chunk of fear in my attitude as well - it was always there for me, and it's gotten substantially bigger now) led her to identify as a lesbian initially after transition, and when she dealt with those issues she came to identify as bisexual. It's possible that I will end up following that path, but I don't think it's likely in my case as the pangs for internal identification as a lesbian was the first sign I can see of realisation I am a woman.

I'm interested in others thoughts on this, whether trans or cis, whether cis men have that fear of other men I always had etc. Particularly interested in whether those genderqueer/fluid/still working it out can spot signs of this in themselves as well, so would love to hear from Emberling and Protar.

ETA: Seriously, please don't just derail this with shouting down how being a misandrist is the worst thing ever. I've almost talked about this before, but pulled back on the assumption that is how it would go and that any complaint I have about things being sexist will forever be dismissed from now on.

I definitely respect her honesty but i do not agree with everything she has said. There is an ever growing desire on the part of many feminists, that i simply hate, to try and *completely* shelter each other and claim that women can do no wrong. This is not true. There are horrible women that should absolutely suffer the consequences of their actions the same as any horrible men. I love the idea of women looking out for one another but when gender is ever used to cover up incompetence or failure or horribleness then i am NOT impressed. Thats the only part of the post i had a problem with.

In terms of misandry being a hatred of all thinga masculine and mens place in the world i can understand that and it seems logical to me in some ways and there are a lot of things about hyper-masculinity that frighten and exclude me but that doesnt mean all masculinity has to be terrible and i must agree with another poster who mentioned how meaningless the two words are becoming, in a lot of respects there are traits that have been considered both masculine and feminine over the years, for example, in ancient greece women were seen to have strongest libidos and demonised for it whereas most people would answer now that it's men who are the most interested in sex and how that is a positive to them and a negative to women.

It is the place a lot of men have in many socities that bothers me the most and because a lot of it is seemingly unchanging i can definitely see how frustration is born and nurtured and i dont begrudge that.

I was relentlessly bullied for years and years in school by both boys and girls and they were as bad as each other. There are horrible women and although i HAVE had sexist remarks made to me and i HAVE had unwanted sexual remarks made to me and HAVE had sexually violent threats/comments made to me as young as 12/13 yrs old i do NOT feel like im drowning every day because im a woman, i feel like im drowning every day because im a very depressed person but its never because im a woman, i very rarely feel negative about being a woman, i understand feminism's place in this world and i am definitely a feminist but i like male friends just as much as female friends. I never have a desire to surround myself with women even though i very much enjoy the company of my female friends and often go out for meals and nights out when its just women but i feel very happy and fortunate to have a lot of wonderful male friends and to never feel uncomfortable around them.

[Theda Baratheon]

Sorry i just realised i replied to a post from like a month ago and it was probably already discussed in great length im on my phone atm so didnt notice the rest of the pages after :p

[karaddin]

I was actually disappointed that it hadn't generated more discussion at the time so no need to apologise :p One thing that I can't remember is whether she specifically mentions she's trans in that piece, I feel like that history can (and clearly did for me) shape those feelings in a way you wouldn't necessarily otherwise.

[Greywolf2375]

I was actually disappointed that it hadn't generated more discussion at the time so no need to apologise :P One thing that I can't remember is whether she specifically mentions she's trans in that piece, I feel like that history can (and clearly did for me) shape those feelings in a way you wouldn't necessarily otherwise.

OK, so I have a very simple question, I think.

Usually in this thread and others I've seen the bolded written as trans*, but here and in an article I just read, it is written as trans. Is there a difference or are they both acceptable versions using the same definition?

I did try to do a search but really only came up with page references to Trans Ams, which I'm assuming will not answer my question.

[karaddin]

There is some variation in usage so I can't answer definitively, but my understanding of it is that trans* is used to be explicitly inclusive of other gender variance that isn't necessarily viewed as transsexual or even transgender, including all the non binary identities (androgyne, neutrois, bigender and others I'm missing). I normally view trans as shorthand for transgender umbrella anyway, so view all those identities as inherently part of the label and don't feel the need to add the *.

That's the general answer for why I don't typically use it, the more specific answer in this case is that I'm talking about a specific individuals identity and I know she identifies as a woman, so saying trans* doesn't fit that particular case as I see it more of meaning a spectrum and don't tend to see if used for self identification.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Agreed. I almost never use, "trans*". The scope is so broad, it has little value in describing anything. It is as if, I said, "my friend is a human". It might be true, but doesn't tell you much.

[emberling]

Lately I've been seeing people in comments claiming that trans* is transmisogynistic and should never be used. I couldn't find a convincing argument as to why (a whole lot of highly unconvincing ones that boiled down to AFAB/AMAB separatism) but there's not really any downside to just using trans, so if that way saves hurting some feelings then it seems like the way to go.

The one good point I saw was that people who don't know any better end up writing things like "trans* woman" (for a binary-identified trans woman) or "trans*sexual" and those are just blatantly wrong and possibly a little offensive, much like "transgenders."

(It's almost like they don't know what the wildcard character represents. Don't they remember DOS?!!)

[Fragile Bird]

I have been trying to get caught up in this thread (I'm still way back), and I have two questions to ask.

First, I'm pretty sure there was a previous version that had a lot of discussion about hostility between the lesbian community (did it include the gay community as well?) and the trans community, and I'd like to re-read it. Does anyone remember which thread that was?

I was talking to a lesbian friend who's a little younger than me, and she was telling me about the hostility she has seen. As a lesbian she felt it was coming from the trans community directed at lesbians, and I think I've read the trans community sees it just the other way around. I'd like to read more about the issue.

My friend said she feels like the idea of being gay or lesbian is under attack, that the new way everyone looks at the issue now is that you're actually trans and need to have your gender re-assigned. She also thought that when she was younger, there was more freedom to express your sexuality in various shades and nuances. There were very feminine lesbians, there were butch lesbians and there was everything in between. Same with the homosexual community, the range going from very masculine homosexuals to very effeminate homosexuals and, as with lesbians, everything in between. The feeling she has is that younger people who come out these days get pressed into the trans gender box and are looking for surgery. She told me she thought this was very unfortunate for a number of reasons.

Anyway, I'd like to read more on the topic and thought I would start here, since I'm sure the topic has been discussed.

I think I'll save my second question until I've gotten caught up, since it was likely covered in a thread as well. :)

[brook]

My friend said she feels like the idea of being gay or lesbian is under attack, that the new way everyone looks at the issue now is that you're actually trans and need to have your gender re-assigned. She also thought that when she was younger, there was more freedom to express your sexuality in various shades and nuances. There were very feminine lesbians, there were butch lesbians and there was everything in between. Same with the homosexual community, the range going from very masculine homosexuals to very effeminate homosexuals and, as with lesbians, everything in between. The feeling she has is that younger people who come out these days get pressed into the trans gender box and are looking for surgery. She told me she thought this was very unfortunate for a number of reasons.

One thing I've seen is that some elements of the lesbian community (and I like to think they are a minority) view the transition of trans men who previously identified as butch lesbians (because for many that identity can be a 'safe' stepping stone to embracing their identity - Chaz Bono for example took that path) as some sort of betrayal.

It strikes me as, at it's core entitled 'you need to not embrace your full identity because it means I wouldn't be attracted to you anymore' and is coupled with a refusal to accept trans identities as valid (as you'll hear often enough 'I'm a lesbian, I date women and trans guys').

I can't speak as to if there is any pressure on masculine of centre lesbians to transition but honestly - I see a whole lot more butch lesbians than I know of trans guys so it's not like all the butches are disappearing, the vast majority of butches are women who identify as women but embrace masculine gender expression in some areas, a tiny minority are actually trans men who may or may not eventually choose to transition.

[emberling]

The fuck? That's just...

Your friend has a very unusual "everyone". I would suggest that she find a new one, because that one sounds broken.

Anyone who pressures someone into identifying trans, particularly based on sexuality/gender stereotypes, is a grade-A asshole. Reminds me of "political lesbians" which if I recall my vague ideas of feminist history correctly are associated with TERFS and generally with being grade-A assholes.

And, you know, as a trans lesbian it's pretty fucking offensive for someone to suggest that gay men should really be trans/lesbians should be men instead. If trans is defined by who you're attracted to for some ridiculous reason then, what, I'm not allowed to be trans? Estrogen has me genuinely smiling for the first time in a decade but it's not real unless I suck some dicks too?

[karaddin]

I've never seen anything remotely resembling that and it sounds...well not like the same world I live in. One thing worth mentioning however is that at least where I see it there isn't really much intermixing between trans men and trans women in a lot of the spaces, so as Brook points out it may be a trans man thing.

When we talk about issues between lesbians and trans folk in the past, it's really between lesbians and trans women and it's largely to do with refusal to see our identities as legitimate, which excuses their refusal to see us as in their dating pool. It's also used in denying trans women access to womens only spaces - see Michigan Women's Music Festival. The barriers get drawn up using the wording of what you were assigned at birth to try and make it sound less discriminatory. The same denial of trans identities is seen in the way that trans men are allowed access to these spaces because they aren't seen as men, and although there are many who accept this and continuing to date lesbians I would personally find it pretty offensive.

The other component I can think of is wrapped up in Feminism and TERFs/political lesbians, for the most prominent example there see Cathy Brennan.

I'm not sure whether the discussions you are thinking of are from here or the Feminism thread as it's quite possible it was the TERF stuff in the latter.

Serano also talks about a movement that I'd put more towards the second one but separate, and may in fact be related to what your friend is talking about, and that is queer feminist groups that take the radfem goal of abolishing gender a step further and can sort of glorify non binary identities. I can see how this could appear to be trans people pushing gay women to transition, but in reality this group excludes binary trans women for being too accepting of the binary, too femme etc.

I would also say that any homogeneity in the gay community seems to come from pressure within the gay community, not externally from the trans community. I would agree that there seem to be more masculine gay men and butch lesbians as a percentage of the visible community than there used to be, but that seems to be related to being attractive within that community. I would note that both groups are pushing to masculinity and I'd identify it as the same old scape goating of feminity that (once again) Serano discusses in whipping girl.

Finally any conflict between lesbians and the trans community I'd say is limited to lesbians not gay men, gay men have their own separate conflict with trans women which has flared up over the last few weeks in the fight over cis gay mens right to use trans slurs for their own entertainment spearheaded by Ru Paul.

[Fragile Bird]

Interesting, and thank you for the replies.

I think my friend was coming from the point of view of a woman who has been comfortable in her lesbian identity for more than 30 years. It just seems like everyone is trans these days, the older women are lesbians, the younger are trans. We all know that societal pressures can be indirect. No one may be overtly pressuring someone to identify as trans instead of lesbian or homosexual, but just from media reports alone you can see the big topic these days is being trans.

The concept of undergoing surgery may simply be viewed as an extreme solution to a lesbian in their late 40s or in their 50s.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Greywolf

I've always seen trans* as inclusive of transgender and transsexual, with the dividing line between the two on whether one seeks sexual reassignment surgeries or not. Transgender is more aligned with gender-fluid and being queer, while transsexual encompasses the ftm and mtf people. There is obviously significant overlap in these groups but that's how I view the labels.

In terms of using just "trans" as an adjective, I am a bit iffy about it. Maybe it's just because it's new, but I see it as collapsing the real distinctions between forms of personal expressions.

Interesting, and thank you for the replies.

I think my friend was coming from the point of view of a woman who has been comfortable in her lesbian identity for more than 30 years. It just seems like everyone is trans these days, the older women are lesbians, the younger are trans. We all know that societal pressures can be indirect. No one may be overtly pressuring someone to identify as trans instead of lesbian or homosexual, but just from media reports alone you can see the big topic these days is being trans.

The concept of undergoing surgery may simply be viewed as an extreme solution to a lesbian in their late 40s or in their 50s.

Sounds to me like your friend just needs to get out more and mingle more with the younger crowd. There are plenty of LBG folks. There is an increase in visibility and openess from the trans* people in the community. This may make it look like "everyone is trans today" or "being trans* is so trendy these days," but that sounds more like a "get off my lawn" vent than a legitimate complaint.