Has Mel Died Before?

[xspicer89x]

Ok, so this may be a bit crackpot, but I'm gonna toss it out there anyways and hopefully get a nice little discussion going

So, IIRC there have been 3 characters so far that have risen from the dead.

1) Beric

2) Cat

3) Gregor

Generally, human beings need at least air, water, food, and rest to survive.

1) Beric does not eat or sleep after he has been killed, no is there any mention of him drinking (Arya VII SoS "Lord Beric himself did not eat...he did not sleep either."). Nor does he seem to rely on breathing (as he has been noosed and most likely has his windpipe crushed--coming back from the dead doesnt heal previous wounds)

2) Cat does not sleep, nor breath either after she has been killed, nor is there any mention of her eating or drinking (Brienne VIII FfC "Our lady sends for you . . . she never sleeps herself". Not to mention her throat has been slashed significantly deep, and her flesh is sloughing off her face making breathing or eating or drinking particularly useless).

3) The same goes for Gregor. "Strong took neither food nor drink...never seen the man use the privy". So he doesn't need food nor drink. The latter part of the quote about never having been seen going to the washroom can be used to support this fact and can also be interpreted in the sense that he never needs to take a rest.

So, I realize that I may be grasping at straws, however Mel seems to have many parallels with these peculiarities.

1) Mel I DwD "R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones. . . and she had paid the price". Granted she is talking in the context of practicing a discipline for mastery, but what if she meant more (i.e. she has paid with her life). For instance, we soon learn that

2) Mel apparently does not need to eat (Mel I DwD "Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R'hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men").

2) Now here's where it gets tricky. This most like also holds true for drinking as well, that is she does not need to drink, however we see in her PoV that she does drink water and feels "parched" when not drinking it. So I'm not sure about this one, maybe the "parched" feeling is just from standing in front of the flames for so long, and has nothing to do with "thirst", though again this is completely debateable.

3) She does not appear to need rest as normal people do (Mel I DwD "Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did...with Stannis gone her bed saw little use...She had no time for sleep...). So she is capable of often going without any sleep at all, preferring only to use her bed to please Stannis. However, she does appear to drowse on some nights, though never for more than an hour. So again, this part can be debated.

4) Mel I DwD "Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking". So far as i know, the colour of blood is related to its oxygenation level--with red blood being highly oxygenated and dead blood black. Since her blood is black, this may suggest that her body is not using oxygen to survive. Or, it may be that some internal organ has failed, like her liver. Or, of course this could just be very old dead blood from a menstrual cycle that is leaking down her thigh.

So, has Mel died before?

[xspicer89x]

I suppose we can also include Coldhands in the "coming back from the dead" category, who also shares many of the above mentioned similarities including:

-DwD Bran I "he does not eat, he never drinks, he does not seem to feel the cold."

-DwD Bran I "Bran did not think he slept"

-Dwd Bran I "we've never seen his breath"

-dead blood turning black as it thickens and congeals in the extremities.

[House Pintur]

Considering we know next to nothing about Mel and her various mysteries I would say everything you said is plausible. It is obvious she is not just a normal priest with a few tricks.

[Theda Baratheon]

There is something definitely 'off' about her, obviously. I wouldn't scoff at this theory just yet.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

One sip of The Strangler was enough to ice Joffrey within two minutes.

The first time we saw Melisandre she chugged a whole goblet full of the stuff and didn't even flinch.

Whatever she is, she is no longer merely human. Her POV chapter may have demystified her in other aspects, but it essentially confirmed she's operating beyond her natural lifespan

[SeanSnow]

There is a certain moment in ADWD when she is talking to Jon about glimmers and Mel's ruby and gold choker catches his eye. Could it be that Mel uses a comely glimmer to conceal her true figure, a withered ancient woman, too old to be of the living?

[Frances Bean Corbray]

There is a certain moment in ADWD when she is talking to Jon about glimmers and Mel's ruby and gold choker catches his eye. Could it be that Mel uses a comely glimmer to conceal her true figure, a withered ancient woman, too old to be of the living?

99% Certain. Like, I don't think we even need to ask this question anymore, GRRM has basically told us this is what's up without actually hitting us over the head by spelling it out.

It flashes/glows during the showdown with Maester Cressen, too.

[SeanF]

I don't know if Melisandre has actually died. But, I believe her magic has transformed her to the point that she can't really be considered human, any more.

[bemused]

I think she's maybe mostly dead.. :laugh: .. but just a hair's breadth away. I think the parched business may just be that her body needs moisturizing to keep supple . Anything gets dried out to the point of cracking or crumbling (especially if kept in proximity to heat) without it. She apparently needs some sleep , because she longs for the day she can do without entirely.

( specifically because she fears to dream ).

Yes , I think she's glamoured...ETA: But maybe her ruby does a bit more ? Bloodraven would be dead if he was not joined to the tree. Maybe her ruby keeps a last thread of real life intact , for her? ...Or , something...

I'm curious to see if she ever actually meets Arya , since Arya may well be on her way to being able to see through glamours.

[Warden of the Northwest]

I think the parched business may just be that her body needs moisturizing to keep supple .

Cassandra knows that feeling.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Don't know if it's been said before, I didn't see it, but that glamour could hide slave tattoos as well.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think Mel is indeed dead, and glamoured to hide her slave tattoo's specifically tears of flame marking her as a temple prostitute of R'hllor. Moqorro also it would seem requires no sustenance surviving as he did for 10 days adrift at sea. Nothing to drink, or eat clutching wreckage to stay afloat so when exactly did he sleep? surely he'd have let go in his sleep?

I think that what Thoros does to Beric was done to Mel & Moqorro too, and is a pretty standard practice of the red priests. Thoros says he had seen the fire kiss performed thousands of times but never expected it to yield actual results, maybe with magic increasing it is more effective again just as the Pyromancer's spells work better too. Mel would of course then need to be very old indeed to have been kissed before magic left the world. or maybe she received teh kiss during her time in Ashai where we know magic is still active? Moqorro too would be much older in this case or a newly kissed priest, perhaps he was "done" specifically to survive the shipwreck he had foreseen as the means to finding Victarion?

These are things which have been explored in the "What exactly are the red priests up to" thread. Its really intriguing to me as I do think this is a magic which is accessible to all with abillity and not a miracle performed or granted by an actual God.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Don't forget to include Moqorro in this discussion. He lived in the sea (presumably without drinking) for 10 days.

The real question should be "are these characters really alive, or are they just very high quality wights?" The series contains a huge spectrum of undead types - there seem to be lots of ways to be dead and still lead an active lifestyle. Deathstyle?

[Mithras]

Given the amount of memory suppression she has, I think she died maybe even more than Beric.

[The Old Tongue]

I'm curious to see if she ever actually meets Arya , since Arya may well be on her way to being able to see through glamours.

This would be awesome and explain why HBO Mel was so intrigued by Arya. She see's her as a potential threat to her big secret.

[Rhaquentis]

We will definitely see her true form one way or another in the last books.

[Rishav Banka]

IIRC one of the GoT actors let slip that Mel is actually 400 years old(or was it 300?). When I heard it, I considered it big news. It has huge ramifications of course.

She could even have had a hand in the Aegon's conquest. Such as communicating with the guys in the citadel. SHE could be the crone the high septon in oldtown sees after locking himself for 7 days and nights. She could also have had a hand in Torrhen Stark bending the knee. There have long been speculation of Torrhen Stark knowing something before kneeling down. Of course assuming this would be giving too much importance and possibly over-estimating Mel.

I wouldn't say she is dead though. She does give birth, to a shadow but a birth nonetheless. Also, she is warm. Not a characteristic of the dead.

[Nettles]

In Melisandre's chapter in aDwD it says "Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price." It hit me on my re-read yesterday, I can't belive I missed it the first time around.

[LittleMissTyrell]

Melisandre is considered to be 100+ years old, Yes she could have died in a past life and brought back by Thoros or a potion. Melisandre can produce a shadow baby don't know how that's possible considering she is supposed to be old. Also the thing I noticed about her is after she bathed she checks her pockets of her robes to make sure her powders are in there, She must have a youthful powder in there.

[Odor]

i wondered about the tattoos as well, Moqorro has them, as supposedly all red priests...

yet Mel doesn't have them and we could place that "shadowcast" ("The ruby on the wildling’s wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded") to ward her being dead and hiding the flames as well... making her look normal...

but how come Thoros does not have those tattoos? or is that a question answered and have i missed it somewhere?

he certainly isn't centuries old and does not seem to have a ruby or likewise object to feed/sustain the spell... where Mel put a ruby on Mance as well to make that bond...

she is also always referred to as Melisandre of Asshai

Asshai has the connection with the shadows everywhere

There was enough wine there to keep him drunk for a hundred years; sweet reds from the Reach and sour reds from Dorne, pale Pentoshi ambers, the green nectar of Myr, three score casks of Arbor gold, even wines from the fabled east, from Qarth and Yi Ti and Asshai by the Shadow.

Here traders from Oldtown and King’s Landing mingled with their counterparts from Braavos and Pentos and Myr, with hairy Ibbenese, pale-skinned voyagers from Qarth, coal-black
Summer Islanders in feathered cloaks, even masked shadow-binders from Asshai by the Shadow

“Val sent her to plead for Mance again,” Jon lied, and they talked for a while of Mance and Stannis and Melisandre of Asshai, until the raven ate the last corn kernel and screamed, “Blood.”

Melisandre of Asshai did not fear for herself

yet... then this comes by

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

If she is from Asshai (as we are in her head : "Melisandre of Asshai did not fear for herself") how could she had learned it before? unless she was "reborn" as Melissandre from Asshai

then there's the usual crossroads... has she spiritually been reborn (from a young slaved girl to a priestess of the red god) or has she been sacrificed/slain/... and been reborn as perhaps some counterpart for the WW?

they are "born" in the north, the shadowlands and Asshai are supposedly on the edge of the red waste, there is magic there as well

if Ice Dragons are possible, we can't rule out Red Walkers i think...

edit, found the interview with the actress who says :

Access: Where do you think her power comes from? Does it have to do with a necklace she wears? Was she born with it?

Carice: She definitely has certain powers. I don’t how old she is, but she’s way over 100 years, so she is a wiser spirit, in a way, but it’s difficult for me to say too much because A — we want it to at least stay sort of a mystery and B — I didn’t read the books (laughs).