Are people too harsh on the Tullys?

[Wmarshal]

One thing which baffles me on this board is when people treat honest mistakes made from good intentions as some kind of moral failings and even crimes and treat them as bad as intentional bad acts. Not talking about Catelyn only, it's a general tendency. I just don't see how making mistakes is a moral failing.

I agree with you with characters but... others tend to destroy a lot and kill a lot with their failings.

[Gneisenau]

People are certainly too hard on Edmure.

It was not his fault. Robb should have bloody well told him the plans long beforehand, if he was supposed to act in a certain way.

Edmure saved Robb. Tywin vs Robb in Lannister home turf would have been a guaranteed victory for Tywin.

But also Robb's order was not vague. Edmure as the local commander has the right to implement Robb's order as he sees fit. In this case Edmure believed he had a beter chance of holding Riverrun by meeting Tywin in the field.

Robb out of pure arrogance gave Edmure the wrong order and he has the gall to blame Edmure for that.

[sifth]

People are not hard enough on Catelyn.....

Instead of blaming my cheating husband.... i will hate a baby..

My boy was recently crippled.... and somebody tried to have him killed.... let me run off 2000 miles to deliver a message instead of changing bedpans...

and while i am at it i will get rid of my crippled boys big brother... who actually does some nice things for him...

Really... Oh yes my old friend LF who I left scarred for life and burned his last letter.... the guy that knocked up my sister.... Though we have no contact we should trust him tell us the truth about where the knife came from,... On his word we should attack the most powerful and spiteful family on the continent.... what could possibly go wrong...

Just caught a dwarf.... Stopped by my sisters house and she has gone batcrap crazy.... No need to tell Ned that the lady that wrote the letter he is currently risking his life and the lives of my daughters lives by investigating just happened to be written by a nut.

They killed my husband that i didn't warn was investigating the rantings of a lunatic.... let me avoid bedpan duty again and go off to advise my son; the most capable military commander on the continent....I will tell him important stuff like... give in to the demands of an old man that is afraid to fight,,, what could possibly go wrong.... though he didnt actually join us.... he let us use his bridge once in promise of marrying the most eligible bachelor on the continent... i am sure i can trust a teenager to put his word over his hormones... damn i am a hell of a negotiator.....

I can also avoid bedpan duty by remaining long after my usefulness has ended to negotiate with other leaders as successfully as i have with the Freys... though i dont have anything to bargin with anymore....

Instead of burying my sons.... I will release the most reviled man in the north....if he pinky swears to me that he will give my daughters back... and i will send my friend gargantua with him to make sure it all works out fine--- and nobody will mind in fact it will make life easier and probably shorten the war...

Well when my previous promise fell through.... i decided to make another one... to the same guy... giving my halfwit brother instead of the king..... that should make everything ok.... and lets lock up my son's guardian wolf... and not wear armor... instead of weapons we will eat bread and salt and just trust all will be fine...

ok when my plan goes to shit and my unarmed son is attacked.... i will offer to trade my son for somebody that means absolutely nothing to anybody..... and when they refuse... I will kill him in spite....

hang out dead in the river for three days---- come back to life by killing the one guy is any good at helping people.... take over his band and terrorize the enemies that I made and some of my old friends to boot... and yes we will hang little boys too....

this about sums it all up. I'm sure her fans will try to come up with all sorts of excuses though, they do love to defend their perfect little Cat, lol

[Wmarshal]

this about sums it all up. I'm sure her fans will try to come up with all sorts of excuses though, they do love to defend their perfect little Cat, lol

We have danced this song before but come on man do really blame for Cat all of this? Jon hate not cool I get it but the rest is BS man.

Edit- He even argues with his oh "she lets trust Robb" then his "oh didn't trust Robb by himself."

[sifth]

We have danced this song before but come on man do really blame Cat all of this? Jon hate not cool I get it but rest is BS man.

trusting Little Finger is probably the only thing I blame her more than hatting Jon. Her family and the Starks out right humiliated him, physically and mentally. She ignores the man for 20 years, but learns he's spying on her the second she enters kings landing. I'm sorry, but nothing about that seems even the least bit shady to you

I know the usual excuses, "He was her friend, she loved him like a little brother"; guess what, you can still have a falling out with an old friend or a family member and when you do, most people wouldn't start trusting them the second they come back into your life

[Minsc]

trusting Little Finger is probably the only thing I blame her more than hatting Jon. Her family and the Starks out right humiliated him, physically and mentally. She ignores the man for 20 years, but learns he's spying on her the second she enters kings landing. I'm sorry, but nothing about that seems even the least bit shady to you

I know the usual excuses, "He was her friend, she loved him like a little brother"; guess what, you can still have a falling out with an old friend or a family member and when you do, most people wouldn't start trusting them the second they come back into your life

That is a ridiculous case of hindsight bias, especially seeing how Martin has spoken about almost everyone trusts Littlefinger in their world. Hell, even after the entire mess where he framed Jaime's brother for attempted murder Jaime still thinks he would make a fine hand while Tywin continued to trust him in a position of power.

Moreover, LF wasn't only acting as a "friend" of hers but also one has to take in account that he holds a position on the king's council (along with Varys who was there during the lie) thus wouldn't necessarily expect him to be plotting to destabilize the realm that he serves simply because he was upset he didn't get the pretty girl.

[Alty732]

Not her kid, she never adopted him, he had plenty of people taking care of him, why the hell is it cruel that she didn't nurture him? I just don't get this.

But not a mother. He never had that. Cat couldn't look over her own pride, she left a child motherless when she could have taken him in.

She didn't owe him anything true, but he never hurt her. He lived in her home anyway, why not show him love? why not help him? What could it hurt?

Cat is a good woman, but she ignores a child for a lifetime because Ned messed up. But she loves Ned. It's just so silly. If you are going to be angry be mad at the right person.

[sifth]

That is a ridiculous case of hindsight bias, especially seeing how Martin has spoken about almost everyone trusts Littlefinger in their world. Hell, even after the entire mess where he framed Jaime's brother for attempted murder Jaime still thinks he would make a fine hand while Tywin continued to trust him in a position of power.

Moreover, LF wasn't only acting as a "friend" of hers but also one has to take in account that he holds a position on the king's council (along with Varys who was there during the lie) thus wouldn't necessarily expect him to be plotting to destabilize the realm that he serves simply because he was upset he didn't get the pretty girl.

did you honestly try to say Cat should have trusted Varys to back Little Fingers story............Varys, ha ha ha

yes, lets trust the man everyone calls The Spider, lol

Varys, dear god you literally have me laughing at my computer right now, ha ha ha

[The Wolves]

But not a mother. He never had that. Cat couldn't look over her own pride, she left a child motherless when she could have taken him in.

She didn't owe him anything true, but he never hurt her. He lived in her home anyway, why not show him love? why not help him? What could it hurt?

Cat is a good woman, but she ignores a child for a lifetime because Ned messed up. But she loves Ned. It's just so silly. If you are going to be angry be mad at the right person.

Even if Catelyn didn't resent Jon's constant presence at Winterfell it would still be okay for her to not have a relationship with Jon. I get that Catelyn didn't want to have any relationship with Jon or talk with him or anything and honestly that's fine.

I don't think Catelgn was wrong for ignoring Jon and being cold and distant around him, that's perfectly fine IMO

[Alty732]

That is a ridiculous case of hindsight bias, especially seeing how Martin has spoken about almost everyone trusts Littlefinger in their world. Hell, even after the entire mess where he framed Jaime's brother for attempted murder Jaime still thinks he would make a fine hand while Tywin continued to trust him in a position of power.

Moreover, LF wasn't only acting as a "friend" of hers but also one has to take in account that he holds a position on the king's council (along with Varys who was there during the lie) thus wouldn't necessarily expect him to be plotting to destabilize the realm that he serves simply because he was upset he didn't get the pretty girl.

Cat never mentions to Jaime that it was Petyr that told Cat it was Tyrion's Knife. Only that it was once Petyrs knife. So while we may know what he was doing, very few in the story actually do.

Tyrion is as innocent as your Bran. He wasn’t climbing around outside of anyone’s window, spying.”

“Then why did the assassin have his dagger?”

“What dagger was this?”

“It was so long,” she said, holding her hands apart, “plain, but finely made, with a blade of Valyrian steel and a dragonbone hilt. Your brother won it from Lord Baelish at the tourney on Prince Joffrey’s name day.”

Lannister poured, drank, poured, and stared into his wine cup. “This wine seems to be improving as I drink it. Imagine that. I seem to remember that dagger, now that you describe it. Won it, you say? How?”

“Wagering on you when you tilted against the Knight of Flowers.” Yet when she heard her own words Catelyn knew she had gotten it wrong. “No... was it the other way?”

“Tyrion always backed me in the lists,” Jaime said, “but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost... but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especial y when drunk. And when was he not drunk?”

[Minsc]

did you honestly try to say Cat should have trusted Varys to back Little Fingers story............Varys, ha ha ha

yes, lets trust the man everyone calls The Spider, lol

Varys, dear god you literally have me laughing at my computer right now, ha ha ha

What reason should she and Ned have to believe that LF and Varys have teamed up together to destabilize the realm and help cause a civil war. The issue is how while LF is spreading his lie, Varys is right there and doesn't do anything to dispute his story.

But not a mother. He never had that. Cat couldn't look over her own pride, she left a child motherless when she could have taken him in.

She didn't owe him anything true, but he never hurt her. He lived in her home anyway, why not show him love? why not help him? What could it hurt?

That still doesn't make it cruel. The fact that Jon is motherless and she is a mother doesn't make it her responsibility to provide him a mother figure.

Because she didn't wish to and it would cause humiliation to herself and her house if she would forced to submit to the position of playing mother to the outcome of her husband's infidelity.

Moreover, it is hardly like Jon is the only motherless child being raised in Westeros. Heck, Catelyn herself was made to grow up from a young age without a mother and no one was required to play that role for her.

Cat never mentions to Jaime that it was Petyr that told Cat it was Tyrion's Knife. Only that it was once Petyrs knife. So while we may know what he was doing, very few in the story actually do.

Even so, Tyrion keeps LF in a position of power even knowing that LF framed him.

[stateofdissipation]

stateofdissipation,

This argument reeks of bias. If you're going to twist the motivations and actions of characters, don't expect anyone to take it seriously.

Also, I'm a little curious as to what your fixation is with Catelyn's 'bedpan duty'. Either it's based in blind ignorance of the workings of a noble household, possible sexism or it's just a weak stab at humour, take your pick.

Cat left Bran once it was clear he would live..... i was suggesting that she found a way to escape an uncomfotable situation. Her reasons for leaving and staying gone were shaky at best. Rather than cope with a disabled child, she ran imaginary missions to far off places. In the end she raccomplished nothing outside of giving really bad advice and getting her other son killed.... The only thing she had to do was take care of Bran and Rickon... she didnt....

You can put her motives in the light i did.... or in the most favorable light you would like.....

She left a disabled child and a toddler in the care of staff to personally attend to a job a messenger should have handled.....

She kidnapped and released Tywin... rather than returning home.... again she could have sent him to Ned or her sister... She was not necessary....

She advised Jon... and did a pretty bad job at it... when did her advice ever help.... all that time her youngest and most helpless children were alone...

The only thing she did right was protect Bran.... and she quit doing that and never did anything better...

[sifth]

What reason should she and Ned have to believe that LF and Varys have teamed up together to destabilize the realm and help cause a civil war. The issue is how while LF is spreading his lie, Varys is right there and doesn't do anything to dispute his story.

That still doesn't make it cruel. The fact that Jon is motherless and she is a mother doesn't make it her responsibility to provide him a mother figure.

Because she didn't wish to and it would cause humiliation to herself and her house if she would forced to submit to the position of playing mother to the outcome of her husband's infidelity.

Moreover, it is hardly like Jon is the only motherless child being raised in Westeros. Heck, Catelyn herself was made to grow up from a young age without a mother and no one was required to play that role for her.

No one in the series truly trusts Varys and for good reason he usually only tells them half truths at best. Cat even mentions in that chapter that she wants to try and avoid Varys radar.

but if you want to believe in your thick head that anyone should trust Varys, when the line "never trust Varys" comes up in nearly every chapter with the guy. well your free to live in your dream world I suppose.

"let's trust that lovely man Varys, he'll never lie to us he seems totally innocent", lol

[Alty732]

What reason should she and Ned have to believe that LF and Varys have teamed up together to destabilize the realm and help cause a civil war. The issue is how while LF is spreading his lie, Varys is right there and doesn't do anything to dispute his story.

That still doesn't make it cruel. The fact that Jon is motherless and she is a mother doesn't make it her responsibility to provide him a mother figure.

Because she didn't wish to and it would cause humiliation to herself and her house if she would forced to submit to the position of playing mother to the outcome of her husband's infidelity.

Moreover, it is hardly like Jon is the only motherless child being raised in Westeros. Heck, Catelyn herself was made to grow up from a young age without a mother and no one was required to play that role for her.

To me anyway, morals shouldn't be decided by what your supposed to do and don't have to do.

It's what you CAN do. Or don't do for this matter.

She could have helped him, but she didn't. She resented him, and loved Ned. Why? I don't know, makes little sense to me.

[SonofStannis]

Yes of course people are too harsh on Edmure especially for attacking Tywin and spoiling Robbs plans. (btw Edmure kicked Tywins ass, the only man who can say that) Robb never let him in on his war plans, he shouldve considering the man was his freaking uncle and holding his own mothers home. That was all on Robb even though I liked Robb I kind of hoped he regretted blaming Edmure for his own failure as he died.

[Lee-Sensei]

I got the feeling that Robb and Brynden were trying to shame him into marrying the Frey girl.

[The Wolves]

To me anyway, morals shouldn't be decided by what your supposed to do and don't have to do.

It's what you CAN do. Or don't do for this matter.

She could have helped him, but she didn't. She resented him, and loved Ned. Why? I don't know, makes little sense to me.

Catelyn is not required to go around helping everybody, just because she didn't help him or comfort him does not make her a bad person. It's not her job to do anything for Jon and her refusing to have any contact with him is fine and within her rights(Jon missed out on nothing).

And yeah her loving Ned and blaming Jon is something I can't wrap my head around either but people do act like that, but even if it is a human emotion she's still wrong for it. But she didn't abuse him.

[harry_dresden]

She could have helped him, but she didn't. She resented him, and loved Ned. Why? I don't know, makes little sense to me.

One thing is easier than the other.

Its easier to hate a bastard child than the Lord of Winterfell.

[Minsc]

Cat left Bran once it was clear he would live..... i was suggesting that she found a way to escape an uncomfotable situation. Her reasons for leaving and staying gone were shaky at best. Rather than cope with a disabled child, she ran imaginary missions to far off places. In the end she accomplished nothing outside of giving really bad advice and getting her other son killed.... The only thing she had to do was take care of Bran and Rickon... she didnt....

She hardly ran off to perform imaginary missions, nor did she accomplish nothing to say otherwise is completely factually incorrect. Furthermore, Robb's actions were those that got himself killed in the end because of a dumb mistake he made when he didn't have her to guide him.

Finally, she had a ton more duties to perform rather then take care of Bran and Rickon saying how they were safe with them being thousands of miles from the front lines and surrounded by loyal and trusted caretakers. Honestly, the only reason they ended up in danger was because Robb decided not to heed her advice.

No one in the series truly trusts Varys and for good reason he usually only tells them half truths at best. Cat even mentions in that chapter that she wants to try and avoid Varys radar.

but if you want to believe in your thick head that anyone should trust Varys, when the line "never trust Varys" comes up in nearly every chapter with the guy. well your free to live in your dream world I suppose.

"let's trust that lovely man Varys, he'll never lie to us he seems totally innocent", lol

The issue is not them trusting Vary's word, but the factor of his silence when LF is lying to them about the dagger. He might only offer half truths, but there is hardly reason for them to believe at that time that he was plotting to destabilize the entire realm by assisting LF pass off a lie that could led to future conflicts. Moreover, again despite her allegation of no one trusting Varys we get to witness Tyrion increasingly relying on Varys when he was serving as Acting Hand and Tyrion is hardly an idiot.

To me anyway, morals shouldn't be decided by what your supposed to do and don't have to do.

It's what you CAN do. Or don't do for this matter.

She could have helped him, but she didn't. She resented him, and loved Ned. Why? I don't know, makes little sense to me.

That is a ridiculous standard, be should be judged on them not performing actions that they can possibly perform but have no responsibility to do. Ned could have abdicated and installed democracy in the North, but it isn't morally wrong that he didn't do so.

She has a duty to love and obey Ned as he is her husband and lord, furthermore that relationship strengths the alliance between House Stark and her former home of House Tully. In contrast, she has no duty or requirement to care about Jon.

[Wmarshal]

Cat left Bran once it was clear he would live..... i was suggesting that she found a way to escape an uncomfotable situation. Her reasons for leaving and staying gone were shaky at best. Rather than cope with a disabled child, she ran imaginary missions to far off places. In the end she accomplished nothing outside of giving really bad advice and getting her other son killed.... The only thing she had to do was take care of Bran and Rickon... she didnt....

She left to warn Ned and exact justice on the ones who hurt Bran, she wanted to add her young son you claim she not trust to keep his word. Bran had others to watch him and to be honest the only reason winterfell got in trouble because Rodrick did the most stupid thing ever and took all the guards out of winterfell during an invasion who could have saw such stupide from a season warrior?

Her advice was solid all the lords assemble and solve the succession by great council, the freys were a good house to marry, Robb's death was entirely his own making, from Theon to Jenny, her missions only failed because she worked with the most inflexible people in the world. Her only job was to keep her family safe and adding Robb helped that a lot if she actually heard her out her would not have a wolf for a head.