The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 4! (FFC-DwD)

[Treemaster]

This is going to be my last message in this thread. I apologize to Ragnorak for not commenting on Jon III. Perhaps I can give some explanation why I need to leave.

Speaking only for myself, I hate to see you go. I think you have interesting and well-thought out posts. Of course not everyone is going to agree with your views, but they add value. The only advice I can give is the one I find hardest to follow: It's ok to let others have the "last word" sometimes. If you've said all you have to say, there is nothing to be gained by continuing to debate a point.

[Lyanna Stark]

We can investigate Jon’s POV with a microscope but such details can’t be seen by the telescope in KL, especially with the tongue of Slynt to tell the news.

From the KL, Jon appears to be giving lands and castles to Stannis. They do not even know that Slynt was beheaded by Jon shortly afterwards. How that will be interpreted in KL, we can only guess.

The Paper Shield does not seem to have any effect. However, Jon did not have many options. I think we should ask whether the arrival of Stannis to the Wall did any good for the NW or the Realm at all, except saving Jon’s life.

By the way, no answer sent to the CB on this letter as far as I know. Or the answer of the KL was intercepted by Thorne and Marsh and kept secret.

There is another thing. No letter was sent to KL after Slynt’s death. I think Bowen and Thorne thought that if Jon would know them sending secret letters to KL, he would have their heads too.

My question is, when was Slynt’s letter sent to the KL and who sent the bird? During the elections by Aemon?

Didn't Cersei send a Kettleblack to the Wall (can remember which one now)? It seems to me, looking forward, we can expect more Kettleblack cack-handing since they suck at everything. Jon already pointed out in this chapter that southron people really will find the Wall uncomfortably cold, and I imagine our dearest Kettleblack brother won't find it anymore pleasant. I'm actually really looking forward to a Kettleblack vs Mel showdown now. Maybe Mel needs more fuel for her fires, or perhaps a Kettle to heat something in? :)

To add to Jon and Davos

I won't have bad blood between the king's men and my own.

The king's men is the faction led by Davos. I think this foreshadows Jon and Davos working together.

Nice one. It seems clear as well that the "Queen's men" are the most annoying ones, while the "Kings men" are somewhat more tolerated. Jon also already used Davos as an argument when he was arguing with Stannis, that his men won't serve under poachers and murderers etc. but then Stannis also has a smuggler as a Hand so Jon had him there. We also know that Jon cares more for ability than for birth, and that means he can appreciate Davos character. He also knows that it was Davos who inspired Stannis to go to the Wall in the first place, which has to count for a lot.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Didn't Cersei send a Kettleblack to the Wall (can remember which one now)? It seems to me, looking forward, we can expect more Kettleblack cack-handing since they suck at everything. Jon already pointed out in this chapter that southron people really will find the Wall uncomfortably cold, and I imagine our dearest Kettleblack brother won't find it anymore pleasant. I'm actually really looking forward to a Kettleblack vs Mel showdown now. Maybe Mel needs more fuel for her fires, or perhaps a Kettle to heat something in? :)

he's chillin all tortured with the faith, need him in KL for Cersie's trial (she hasn't formally requested trial buy combat yet)

[SeanF]

I'm a little behind on the posts in this reread (as usual) and just saw this, and I wanted to say I agree with it 100%. Ned did the "right" thing in talking to Cersei, in my view, and he was even savvy politically. He couldn't have reasonably anticipated that Littlefinger would betray him...

Anyway, that is another topic, but just wanted to express my appreciation for this beautifully-expressed sentiment.

Thanks. I think you end up with a society like Sicily or Naples if each bad deed generates an atrocity in return. Unfortunately, I missed most of the "Learning to Lead" re-reads, but I do see a big difference between Jon's and Dany's style of leadership here. Jon is prepared to show compassion to enemies. Dany shows compassion to her followers, and the downtrodden, but not to enemies. Of course, Jon got stabbed for his pains.

[Lyanna Stark]

he's chillin all tortured with the faith, need him in KL for Cersie's trial (she hasn't formally requested trial buy combat yet)

Oh, I thought it was one of the other brothers she sent. Checking the Wiki it says that Kevan imprisoned Osfryd as well (I think this caused my confusion, I remembered two being imprisoned) but apparently he thought he would send Osney (the youngest) to the Wall. Or have him fight Ser Robert Strong. That leaves Osmund still in the Kingsguard, but with two brothers imprisoned, one wonders if Osmund can stay on. Interesting. Hopefully one of the Kettleblacks will show up at the Wall eventually. I'm rooting for Osfryd cos he's an absolute tool and will certainly be an embarrassment to himself and LF. *fingers crossed*

Thanks. I think you end up with a society like Sicily or Naples if each bad deed generates an atrocity in return. Unfortunately, I missed most of the "Learning to Lead" re-reads, but I do see a big difference between Jon's and Dany's style of leadership here. Jon is prepared to show compassion to enemies. Dany shows compassion to her followers, and the downtrodden, but not to enemies. Of course, Jon got stabbed for his pains.

I think Dany tried a bit in Meereen to try and incorporate some of her former enemies, but just as Jon got stabbed for his pains, Dany was shoved into an unhappy marriage and then nearly poisoned so not a 100% success rate for either method, I guess? Dany's and Jon's approaches have both similarities and differences. One similarity I think that stands out in this Jon chapter is his isolation, which we can see in Dany's Meereen chapters as well. It's lonely at the top where the Buck stops. They also get progressively more depressed during ADWD, until Jon's stabbing and Dany taking off on Drogon.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I think Dany tried a bit in Meereen to try and incorporate some of her former enemies, but just as Jon got stabbed for his pains, Dany was shoved into an unhappy marriage and then nearly poisoned so not a 100% success rate for either method, I guess? Dany's and Jon's approaches have both similarities and differences. One similarity I think that stands out in this Jon chapter is his isolation, which we can see in Dany's Meereen chapters as well. It's lonely at the top where the Buck stops. They also get progressively more depressed during ADWD, until Jon's stabbing and Dany taking off on Drogon.

I think Dany gets more depressed leading to her breaking point, but I think both Jon and Tyrion shift away from depression in their last few chapters, isolation never really leaves though

[ShadowCat Rivers]

A very dense chapter indeed, and very interesting commentary from everyone. Adding a few thoughts.

True kings and queens (again).

Melisandre wears no crown, but she's the true queen of the mummer's show. She's the author, director and protagonist. Regal looking Val and not-so-regal looking Stannis are supporting actors here.

I'm not so sure Stannis knows about Mel's swap. Maybe Mel knew about Jon's baby swap and let it pass because it gave her the idea of her own little game? Obviously, she doesn't consider their blood kingly enough, otherwise Mance would be gone for good.

ADWD is the book of fake/questionable identities and swaps. Preparing the ground for the big revelation early in the Winds?

Some parallels that caught my attention:

1) The gift of mercy

Ulmer of the Kingswood jammed his spear into the ground, unslung his bow, and slipped a black arrow from his quiver. [...] “And now his Watch is done,” Jon murmured sofly.

“He’ll like this even less, then.” Anguy strung his longbow, slid an arrow from his quiver, nocked, drew, loosed. [...] Valar morghulis, Arya thought. (ASOS, Arya V)

Ulmer of the Kingswood and Anguy of the BwB give the gift of mercy to men gone rogue. "Mance"'s death ends his service - valar dohaeris, until death. Stannis as the Mad Huntsman? Both men will be displeased by the act, but Stannis is doing this show for pragmatic reasons, not for revenge.

2) The true king and the true god

If you would eat, come to me, Jon thought. If you would not freeze or starve, submit.

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope.

Aye, we hacked their gods apart and made them burn the pieces, but we gave them onion soup. What’s a god compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?

King Joffrey and King Robb and King Stannis were forgotten, and King Bread ruled alone. “Bread,” they clamored. “Bread, bread!” (ACOK, Tyrion IX)

But,

Some were dead and some were dying; more were their kin or close companions, unwilling to abandon them even for a bowl of onion soup.

Love is powerful, sometimes it trumps even the god-king bread but it is not easy to win, and sometimes you're not going to get it, no matter what. Jon cannot make Gilly love him for examble, not after what he did to her... I think that Stannis is so used to be disliked and even to people being suspicious of him, that he has abandoned the idea and doesn't even try.

3) Don't deny your wolf!

The taste of hot blood filled Jon’s mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat.

“I am not a wolf, no matter what they call me.” Robb sounded cross. “Grey Wind killed a man at the Crag, another at Ashemark, and six or seven at Oxcross. If you had seen -” (ASOS, Catelyn II)

(In contrast, we have Arya's "I'm not a lady, I'm a wolf". Bran goes a little back and forth before accepting his nature.)

Should we assume that Robb had tasted the blood of Greywind's kills? I think yes... Both renounce their wolfish nature and both have their wolf tied at the worst possible time. There seems to be a connection in wolf-survival, for the boys at least. Hopefully, Jon will get a second chance.

Jumping ahead a little bit, but in this, Mel's warning echoes Cat's. There are more parallels in Mel's and Cat's respective roles, to be examined later.

Marsh... His main concern is to be at the winning side, it's plain and obvious. (By the way, I thought that although it took place in public, the conversation between Jon and Marsh should count as private. It seems that no one else is near enough to hear or overhear them.)

Also, this conversation establishes the uselesness of his counsel. To Jon's "What would you have me do?" (regarding Stannis), Marsh has nothing to propose.

Personally, I think that Marsh (and some more of the NW, Thorne not included - his motive is hate) is in denial. He does not want to see the dire situation that they are into, he does not want to see what they really will have to fight against, he wants things to be just like the quiet old times and refuses to even think about reality.

Val - I don't believe she has some sort of supernatural connection, from what we know of her so far. She's not a dreamer like Mother Mole and certainly not a healer (she was quite panicked during Dalla's childbirth, but that's should be the number one priority of a wildling healer, something a woodwitch ought to know). Her regal quality and her importance to the free folk has more to do with her personality, she was one of Mance's inner circle, after all.

I agree with Lyanna, about representing and reminding roads not taken. But she is put in a triplette of wishes ("Her, and Winterfell, and my lord father’s name") where the two later don't seem quite right (although Jon doesn't know): Winterfell - Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya are still alive. Stark - that's his mother's name, not his (biological) father's. Does this mean that they are not meant to be?

“One realm, one god, one king!” With Mel consistently being so wrong, should we expect more realms and more kings by the end?

[bemused]

Lykos ... re: Slynt's letter .. Yes , I think you're exactly right about the timing. Even if Stannis hadn't yet said as much , the number of prisoners , all his hours of talking to Mance and various other interviews that must have taken place ( implied in Stannis' conversations with Jon) would have made it obvious that he was "trying to make common cause with the wildlings".. And of course coming from Slynt , it would probably have been put in a way that was overstated , if anything.

Lyanna ... Cersei never got the Kettleblack away. She was gong to use the one not in the KG to implicate Margaery - as a result of which , he would be sent to the wall, with company and under orders to kill Jon ( after which he would be brought back , supposedly). He turned on Cersei under torture - as a result of which , she was arrested herself .

With Kevan coming in to take charge , it may be unlikely that Qyburn could carry through with any part of the plan on his own.. We haven't seen any noticeable contingent arrive from KL after Slynt's (yet)... Ser O. Kettleblack (whichever one he is) must be needed as a witness in Cersei's trial , so who knows what will happen to him now..( stay tuned ).

ETA: sorry to double up on that ..when I tried to post earlier , I got frozen out.

Ragnorak ..Thanks ,I will now always be making the mental substituion , " The night is dark and full of ..smurfs."

There are so many clues, possible comparisons, etc. in "Mance's" execution . some have been noted already .."the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor "..." your king of lies "...I'm sure others have made the following comparison elsewhere ( as I have myself ), but it bears noticing..

One arrow took Mance Rayder in the chest, one in the gut, one in the throat. The fourth struck

one of the cage’s wooden bars, and quivered for an instant before catching fire.

Just rearrange the order - Throat , gut , chest..a piercing blow to the chest aims to do similar damage to one between the shoulder blades...We know there can be differences, depending on the power behind each blow , of course ... but it's suggestive that the fourth arrow never reached it's target ...We may want to revisit this later.

ShadowCat ... Re,Val..not to take this astray into a different discussion, just to clarify - I agree ,Val is definitely not a healer ( wanted to get the midwife) and obviously not a woods witch ( she tells John to go ask one , re: greyscale ). Nor do I see her as being a supernatural being (or anything like whatever Mel is )..

GRRM has said multiple times that one of the models he used for his foundation of the wildling religion ( not their gods , but the way the people worshipped ) was the Norse religion. This featured a whole other class of wise woman ,the Vala ( english name , plural...*ahem* Val and

Dalla ? )..

Vala were greatly respected ,could travel about freely, without fear of being harassed, abducted , etc... They sought / prayed for visions from the gods through singing particular songs ,and other rituals ( magic of a sort ). People or tribes could "hire" them to seek visions on their behalf... These visions were particularly good for locating people , things , where to engage in battle , etc.. They sometimes associated themselves with ( or married) a leader who they thought would go far and helped him in his cause.. Witches were healers ,but some might have some visions ..Vala were seers but some might have some knowledge of healing.. but on the whole ,they were separate, with the Vala being more elevated..

I've no idea how much of that GRRM's using ( I think there are some signs buried , especially, but not only in ADWD, that he is using some of it)...I'm just suggesting people might want to consider this ( along with other possibilities) and watch for signs as we go ahead.. If not, that's OK too... It wouldn't negate the growing attraction between Jon and Val, and might enhance it .

ETA: I'd suggest that she was one of Mance's inner circle because of her status / abilities ( and there's more than one way one person can be a sister to another.)

[Ragnorak]

Just to clarify with regard to Marsh, while I think the text is intentionally demonstrating that he's wrong I don't think it is trying to portray him as unreasonably so.

One of the biggest things that I think is supposed to come across is that he is tactically dead wrong. His plan is basically to pull up the drawbridge and prepare for a siege. Sure the Watch has enough food to outlast the Wildlings if this were a standard siege but it isn't. Assaulting the castle is a perfectly viable option when confronted with a siege scenario and becomes a virtual certainty when starving the enemy out is not an option. Theon gets in Winterfell by going over the Wall. Wildlings have been going over the Wall since the start of the series and seem to have done so since they became the enemy instead of the Others. Redbeards attack on the North was done by going over the Wall because the Watch was "asleep." They don't have the men to be "awake" all along the Wall. It is 300 miles long and unlike a regular castle you can't just cart the boiling oil 125 miles to "over there" where they're trying to climb the Wall. You can't resupply the archers from the stockpiles at Castle Black to an assault 90 miles away like you can at a regular castle. To repel any such attack you need eyes to tell you where it is coming from to begin to preposition your defenses. There are no catapults or barrels or stocks of oil or ground stone anywhere between Castle Black and the forts at the two ends of the Wall. With a gate, Castle Black is an ideal place to assault. Without one anyplace along the Wall is just as good-- better because there's no supplies for the Watch trying to repel them on the other side.

Marsh doesn't seem to have processed the impact of the assault from the south. He probably thinks it couldn't have been that bad if it was repelled by the quality of men that he didn't see fit to take with him. He probably thinks that if they had sealed the gates that Mance could never have "almost" gotten through without realizing that a sealed Castle Black gate would have led to 100,000 Wildlings meeting him at the Bridge of Skulls. He wasn't here for that battle and again it was another assault repelled by the men he didn't deem worthy to take with him. His lack of feeling a deep and sincere debt to Stannis fits with his misconception that the Wall itself is sufficient to completely repel the Wildlings.

Still, Marsh has only one real tactical misconception and that is the Wall's ability in and of itself to keep out the Wildlings.

His desire to side with the Lannisters is also contrasted with Jon. Marsh is apolitical in his bias. The only thing personal in this for him is not wanting to die. That isn't exactly unreasonable if not the most noble calculation. Jon has a very different stake in this. For a man who believes the Wall would defend them no matter what it is Stannis that is bringing them into this conflict and not Stannis who saved them. Again, if you grant the singular premise of the Wall's impenetrability, Marsh becomes perfectly reasonable.

I also think there's some deeper contrasts between Jon's disagreements with Marsh and his disagreements with Stannis as things move forward. Stannis::Jon and Jon::Marsh are parallel in their respective positions of authority. Jon has the same end states in mind as Stannis but very different methodologies. His disagreements with Marsh are generally about end states rather than methodologies.

This was similar to what I thought, too. It feels like Jon is projecting, but also that Val represents partly the life he could have had with Ygritte and partly the Lord of Winterfell route. Is this more "roads not taken" for Jon? It resonates with the last paragraph in the chapter as well, that "This was the lot until the end of his days". Jon has made his choice. I do disagree with Jon a bit though in that he calls his choice "honour" but to me it seems more like "duty". Cat would approve? :)

Val seems like the surface onto which he projects those dreams he hasn't dare to dream: of a woman to love, his own keep, a family, a son of his own blood. (We see something similar with Tyrion and to some degree even Sandor Clegane.) It also brings to mind Maester Aemon's word about how we are fashioned for love, how it is our greatest glory and greatest tragedy.

This is largely one sided here. We have references to Jon speaking with Val but don't get any scenes in his POV. He advocated for Mance living which she must know about and she probably knows about Gilly and the baby swap. They're developing more history even if it is off the page.

I see a bit of a romantic tension later but I'm not sure I'd say it exists here outside of Jon's suppressed desires. You've very astutely posted on the Jaime/Brienne and Sansa/Sandor dynamics in the past. Do you see anything similar potentially developing here or is this all about Jon's internal conflicts?

More southron fool imagery in how Jon feels sorry for Selyse and Shireen since they are "southron" and cannot manage the conditions at the Wall as it is no place for a "southron lady". I wonder if Arya, Sansa or Dany would count as "southron ladies" and if they would cope? As chivalrous as this looks though, Jon does an 180 and later thing that "women are the strong ones", considering Ygritte, Val and Gilly. It seems in Jon's mind, northern women are the bee's knees, while southern ladies are spoilt and pampered little weak flowers? :P Or maybe he's just flip-flopping a bit on where he stands on women.

Jon has a big chivalry streak. I suspect he'd be holding doors for Northern women too, but he definitely seems to have a type. He'll back down on the age difference in his apple/onion choice but won't on the hostages later with his Dany Flint reference to Tormund. He put guards on the guards with these Wildlings but won't bother with any guards when the spearwives show up. Chivalrous pragmatism?

Regarding Lummel's earlier reflection that "The Buck stops with Jon". Mel promises the wildlings:

But really, the person providing most of this is Jon. As far as I can tell, the Nights Watch brought forth the food and the clothes, and even the straw since Mel did not bring any of that stuff in her pockets. Stannis and Mel promise a whole lot, but it seems to me that Jon provides, and often the Buck stops with him.

-"If I was Queen, I'd make them love me"

Sansa thougt this when Cersei was going on about how effective it was with fear, and Jon reflects that Stannis has it wrong a well. Stannis claims he cares only for their swords, and not their kisses. However, from the Tyrion re-read we know that if it's really a matter of life and death, you need something else than money or promises of lands and food to make people fight for you. They need a cause, they need to believe, and that is something money or a nice plot of land can't buy. Tyrion realised this, to his sorrow, perhaps, or his wisdom. It seems Jon understands this, too, but Stannis doesn't really.

On reflection, the food comes from the Watch and they will eventually be settled on the Gift so the land comes from the Watch too. With the mercy killing arrows I suspect they see whatever "justice" being dome here coming from Jon as well.

The love theme is a good one and I like that you tied it back to Sansa (especially with her and Jon having such strong Ned parallels) and Tyrion who has such an evolving look and exploration of what makes men loyal. Needing to believe also runs us straight into our Mummer in Chief's riddle.

A very dense chapter indeed, and very interesting commentary from everyone. Adding a few thoughts.

True kings and queens (again).

Melisandre wears no crown, but she's the true queen of the mummer's show. She's the author, director and protagonist. Regal looking Val and not-so-regal looking Stannis are supporting actors here.

I'm not so sure Stannis knows about Mel's swap. Maybe Mel knew about Jon's baby swap and let it pass because it gave her the idea of her own little game? Obviously, she doesn't consider their blood kingly enough, otherwise Mance would be gone for good.

ADWD is the book of fake/questionable identities and swaps. Preparing the ground for the big revelation early in the Winds?

Some parallels that caught my attention:

1) The gift of mercy

Ulmer of the Kingswood jammed his spear into the ground, unslung his bow, and slipped a black arrow from his quiver. [...] “And now his Watch is done,” Jon murmured sofly.

“He’ll like this even less, then.” Anguy strung his longbow, slid an arrow from his quiver, nocked, drew, loosed. [...] Valar morghulis, Arya thought. (ASOS, Arya V)

Ulmer of the Kingswood and Anguy of the BwB give the gift of mercy to men gone rogue. "Mance"'s death ends his service - valar dohaeris, until death. Stannis as the Mad Huntsman? Both men will be displeased by the act, but Stannis is doing this show for pragmatic reasons, not for revenge.

Some really good stuff here. I particularly like the Gift of Mercy. Very nice catch!

Ragnorak ..Thanks ,I will now always be making the mental substituion , " The night is dark and full of ..smurfs."

:laugh:

She is just a tad vague. Blah blah blah darkness (generic I'm right and all y'all are wrong) Blah blah blah darkness (any king but Stannis) Blah blah blah darkness (The Others) Blah blah blah darkness (the Haunted Forest) Blah blah blah darkness (The death penalty) This could be a Life of Brian skit.

[-Winterfellian-]

Great stuff as usual Ragnorak!

I very much like your observations on Marsh and how his idea of common cause was nothing more than the preservation of the status quo and his viewing loyalty to a Lannister King as a part of the vow.

If I may I will like to expand on the topic of isolation in relationship to confinement.

One thing that caught my attention while reading this chapter was the potential symbolism in terms of the locations where the chapter starts and later ends.

The entry begins in the open air, with a wall weeping despite the recurrent mentions of how cold the day is, and ends up with Jon alone in his dim and chilly room, feeling its walls closing in on him.

The ideas of walls and enclosures vs abstract concepts such as freedom and hope are present throughout the chapter and as it moves forward we can see different layers of isolation emerge, starting with a more multilayered pattern and ending up with Jons more personal solitary confinement. These layers, I find, are manifested in the different sites Jon takes us through.

The open landscape where the chapter begins is shadowed not only by a restricting Wall and a King demanding homage, but also by entrapping elements such as Mances cage, the stockade full of men and women who looked neither wild nor free, and even Mel and Stannis promises of food and justice in exchange for compromising the free folks own sense of identity and freedom.

Once the gates are opened we have the inverse result of what an opened gate might suggest, given the oppressive conditions intrinsic to the deal Mel and Stannis are offering. Their hope is a long way from being the same kind of hope for which Val will thank Jon before departing to find Tormund in what will be Jons do over of the mummery we see in this chapter.

Following with the idea of imprisonment, still in the open air, we see that many characters seemed confined as well-. It can be by a determined role they are bound to play for Mels charade (Mance, Stannis, Val) as ShadowCat Rivers points out; or like Bowen Marsh who appears to be a metaphorical prisoner of an archaic and antiquated way of thinking and who advocates for a state of perpetual isolation and/or imprisonment as means to counteract a world that is evolving too fast for him; or like the wildings who in the spirit of the mummery burn their Old Gods only to take them South with them.

In the midst of all this we have Jon, who in the surface appears to be the above the inprisonment of others and is marching at his own tune (well he and Dolorous Edd)- Jon describes what Mel and Stannis are doing as mummer show more than once and orders Mances killing blow, acknowledges the slight chances of the wildings keeping faith, and, unlike, Bowen he does not seem as encumbered by rather defunct ways of thinking. Yet, the chapter ends with him feeling the walls of his responsibilities closing in on him, proving hes as much a prisoner as everybody else, despite his leadership position or perhaps because of it. Jon, trying to operate and later break free of this confinement is a very important part of his evolution in ADWD.

@Lyanna, nice to see you back! I very much like the idea you present of Val as Jons road not taken. Personally, I never saw much of an actual attraction of Jon towards her and I think her as the projection of the things Jon does not let himself to dream falls more in line with the kind of wistfulness and sadness that, IMO, marks most of his thoughts about her.

I too love that Jon figured out Stannis Lightbringer is as fake as Lord Janos Lordship of Harrenhal. Interestingly enough, he doesnt seem to ponder on where the real AA and his Lightbringer are. Jon does not appear to be looking for a hero to come and save them but rather focusing on the day to day aspect of things.

Ragnorak ..Thanks ,I will now always be making the mental substituion , " The night is dark and full of ..smurfs."

Lol, now I feel less bad about laughing myself silly as soon as I read the word smurf.

[Ragnorak]

Great stuff as usual Ragnorak!

I very much like your observations on Marsh and how his idea of common cause was nothing more than the preservation of the status quo and his viewing loyalty to a Lannister King as a part of the vow.

If I may I will like to expand on the topic of isolation in relationship to confinement.

One thing that caught my attention while reading this chapter was the potential symbolism in terms of the locations where the chapter starts and later ends.

The entry begins in the open air, with a wall weeping despite the recurrent mentions of how cold the day is, and ends up with Jon alone in his dim and chilly room, feeling its walls closing in on him.

<snip>

Great stuff. Really captures the essence of the chapter. We have Mance imprisoned in his bars of bones, Val as the imprisoned fairy tale princess despite the crown and general physical imprisonment being exchanged for some form of psychological prison. Even the Dornishman's Wife is about that which is more precious than life itself against this backdrop of giving all that up for life itself absent all the rest.

[illrede]

Of course, Jon got stabbed for his pains.

But not by any of his avowed enemies!

Unless the Septon upright that day, I guess.

[bemused]

There is another major theme prevalent throughout the books at work here (if it doesn't go without saying ) - Hidden identities, Hidden agendas... There isn't one main character in this scene who isn't , in one way or another, something other than what they seem... there's a larger Mummer's Show than the one Mel is directing.

Jon- there's the obvious hidden parentage thing.. the questions around the Stark succession, the as yet under-developed warg bond, and though we can see he's thinking things through ,he hasn't fully developed his own agenda for the position he now holds.

Mance / Rattleshirt - the obvious switch is only the half of it, Mance's complete agenda is unkown ( though we know he must have one ).

Mel - though more revelations about her will come later , I believe she's already given hints at her unusual longevity , even at this stage of the game. Lightbringer is obviously a fake... And are we sure we know exactly what she wants ..?

Stannis - I love the idea of him as the Tin Man..I have definitely noticed him being more flexible than he's been reported to be . In spite of Donal Noye's opinion, in Stannis , there's still a lot of the emotionally wounded child that Cressen knew.

We've already seen that his much vaunted justice and truthfulness go out the window when it's advantageous... as long as it's not known publicly. I don't think there's any question he knows about Mance, he just let Mel show him ( once again) how he could get what he wants without attracting blame.

Val- whether we have any ideas about what her status may be, or not ..there's already a feeling that there's more to her than meets the eye..

Bowen - may appear well-intentioned , but just wrong in many ways ... on the surface... But even if we see nothing suspicious in his past actions, knowing who he wants to support , it's just one step from " elect the guy we want " to "remove the guy we didn't want " ... He's more dangerous than he seems from the get-go.

Attraction

Me, I wouldn't be too quick to think Jon and Val are "not meant to be" ... remember , the Wall itself took care of Jarl . ;) .... Sometimes the Wall itself seemed to shake them off, as a dog might shake off fleas. Jon had seen that for himself, when a sheet of ice cracked beneath Val’s lover Jarl, sending him to his death.

Later Jon will say it more plainly... “The Wall killed Jarl.”.. that's at least one repetition ( I haven't checked back to the event)...But if you believe there's magic in the wall... I'm just sayin'.... :D

And yes, I think Jon's attracted to Val , even now . He notices her beauty in detail almost every time he sees her. In ASoS, we read.. As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

Particularly since there's a period after "thought" , I think we can read that as sorry for himself as well as for her..

[ShadowCat Rivers]

ShadowCat ... Re,Val..not to take this astray into a different discussion, just to clarify - I agree ,Val is definitely not a healer ( wanted to get the midwife) and obviously not a woods witch ( she tells John to go ask one , re: greyscale ). Nor do I see her as being a supernatural being (or anything like whatever Mel is )..

GRRM has said multiple times that one of the models he used for his foundation of the wildling religion ( not their gods , but the way the people worshipped ) was the Norse religion. This featured a whole other class of wise woman ,the Vala ( english name , plural...*ahem* Val and

Dalla ? )..

I agree that the names must be inspired from norse mythology. I'm not very convinced about her role though but so far I don't have any conclusive ideas. More questions than possible answers... Might be that next book will reveal more parallels to the norse Vala. We'll see.

[Mithras]

Attraction

Me, I wouldn't be too quick to think Jon and Val are "not meant to be" ... remember , the Wall itself took care of Jarl . ;) .... Sometimes the Wall itself seemed to shake them off, as a dog might shake off fleas. Jon had seen that for himself, when a sheet of ice cracked beneath Val’s lover Jarl, sending him to his death.

Later Jon will say it more plainly... “The Wall killed Jarl.”.. that's at least one repetition ( I haven't checked back to the event)...But if you believe there's magic in the wall... I'm just sayin'.... :D

And yes, I think Jon's attracted to Val , even now . He notices her beauty in detail almost every time he sees her. In ASoS, we read.. As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there.

Particularly since there's a period after "thought" , I think we can read that as sorry for himself as well as for her..

I think Jon and Val will not end up together. The Wall tested Jon with Ygritte. The Wall tested Jon again with Val. They are both test materials and Val will not last long.

[Lummel]

For your interest, amusement and enjoyment we are starting a spin off reread for the Sam's AFFC chapters. I've opened that thread and posted all the introduction posts to Sam's chapters that we've had so far and added a new one - Sam II AFFC.

[bemused]

Lummel..Sam, too ? When will I sleep ?

Val again... Sorry , this is brief..and I only mention it at this stage, because it's something I'd missed before... ( but it's right in this chapter.)

Part of what originally led me to the idea that there's another class of "elite" women among the free folk is based on the Mance quote about Dalla in ASoS...“It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.”

So I had been thinking of Val and Dalla as some kind of wise women , though not woods witches.

Last night, I was looking back at our chapter to go over Jon and Bowen's conversation , and my eye fell on the following , as the free folk file out of the compound. Sigorn and "Rattleshirt" have just bent the knee...

He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel,forgiven.

Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard.

An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller....etc.

Note "revered " and "leaders"....and the proximity of the sentence to Val in Jon's thoughts...The two clan chiefs are leaders .. Alfyn Crowkiller's twelve yr, old son , maybe not.. Sandwiched in between the two , I'd say the revered old wisewoman definitely belongs with the former .

Back in ASoS - Mance , again ( I knew this one well from before , but it was only one example.)..

My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. ...Just some healing ?

It looks to me like GRRM has constructed the separate designation I've been feeling ( that may apply to Val ) .... It's "wisewoman" , one word ( exact function as yet unknown ).... Others may not agree , but I'm calling it now.

ETA: Just checked...These are the only occurrances of "wisewoman" in the series , so I think it's intentional.

Paper Waver ..I'm not projecting where Jon and Val "end up" ( s**t happens in Westeros, and there's 2 books to go )..Just predicting future more complicated .."interaction". ( Read that any way you like ) ;)

ETA: I think "leader" and "true queen" are words we might want to consider in relation to Val in later chapters.( much as "true king" has been considered in relation to Jon.)

[Lummel]

...It looks to me like GRRM has constructed the separate designation I've been feeling ( that may apply to Val ) .... It's "wisewoman" , one word ( exact function as yet unknown ).... Others may not agree , but I'm calling it now...

Ah, the wise woman. Her function was probably like this.

;)

[jarl the climber]

@ Lyanna Stark,

Just to settle the Kettleblack situation. Osney was a household knight sworn to Tommen, he is the one who the HS had locked up and had tortured, he is still being held by the Faith. Osmund was a Kingsguard and Osfryd was Lord Commander of the Gold Cloaks. Kevan told us that he arrested both of them because Cersei admitted sleeping with them and that they could either face Ser Robert, in a trial by combat, or take the Black. That's where things stood before Ser Kevan died.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Ah, the wise woman. Her function was probably like this.

;)

Lummel, what did you just did!!!?

"You don't have to talk in that stupid voice to me, I'm not a tourist!"

...Now I'm imagining some thousands years later at the Wall, wildling folklore shows and selling souvenirs, including figurines of Tormund's member...

Shame on you! :laugh: