New Trailer Coming

[DaveyJoe]

Query . Is anyone upset that Vargo got replace by Locke ? Chase that's one adaptation that I think is superior to the book.

I actually enjoyed Vargo Hoat in the books and was really looking forward to seeing him in the show, but Noah Taylor completely won me over with his performance, so I'm not upset with that change. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, they are just different, and I enjoy both.

[Beric175]

I actually want to comment on the trailer itself and bring the conversation back in line with the title.

I liked the fact that we'll get the whole Widow's Wail cutting up Tyrion's present thing because it's something important character-wise in the books. Joffrey in one way or another is Martin's worst enemy because he's an uneducated, brattish infant without any appreciation for books and is quite happy to destroy them.

The sansa-Tyrion exchange seems to be there to show that this will never ever be a happy arrangement and that will of course just add to Tyrion's frustration, hence why we get the shot of him angrily throwing stuff around the room. Viewers might at least somewhat get divided regarding his character until the moment he claims to have murdered Joffrey, at which point tey either cheer for him or reject him (I think once he kills Shae they'll start disagreeing with his action's more and more). The jaime/Bronn stuff looks promising, especially since Cersei might start losing interest in Jaime once she sees that he's not the fighter he used to be and it's making the best out of a difficult situation because the actor for ser Illyn has cancer. plus, Bronn is just cool on the show so it's nice they're keeping him around.

essentially the whole Bolton-Theon stuff might move as far ahead as ramsay's marriage by the end of the season, only Yara will be playing the role of fake Arya (which is why in my opinion her name in the show has the same letters as Arya). We clearly get a shot of her fighting someone in a stone castle (either Winterfell or the Dreadfort) so it's easy to assume that she won't turn around for the Kingsmoot (if it happens at all on the show). They might keep the scene where Ramsay threatens to nail Theon's tongue to the door so that might present a nice contrast to his earlier sexual behavior towards his sister in season 2, only here he will be forced to do it against his will. karma comes around, I guess. It would at least cut through some of the fat and still allow both characters to be found by Stannis by the end of season 5 after they've escaped.

Ser Barristan got a great line in, which will showcase Dany's horrible decision-making in the long-run and the siege of Meereen looks great, can't wait for that. The fact that she wants to be more thn just the Mother of Dragons and won't be able to live up to her own expectations will probably be something that carries over into next season. So this year we see the first signs of her downward spiral and next year she won't know how to deal with the Sons of the Harpy

Stannis does not get too much time here in the trailer, although I can understand why: he is the savior of the NW this year so they probably don't want to show more than necessary and keeping the Iron Bank hidden is probably a good choice too.

I wonder if Tormund and the Magnar of Thenn will get along or not? Also, Jon will probably be LC before the battle at the Wall because they won't want to stretch that out for too long.

NB: Oberyn, Elia and Olyvar in one bed? Kinky.

[protar]

Query . Is anyone upset that Vargo got replace by Locke ? Chase that's one adaptation that I think is superior to the book.

Simplifying Vargo to just a Bolton Bannerman was a change I (sort of) support, simply because Hoats constant switching of allegiances, and the backstory of his company is a tad too complex for the show. There's also the argument that he would have been laughable on-screen but I'd argue that's the point. I think it could have been made to work if they'd left Gregor completely out of S2 and used that space to introduce Hoat.

ETA: Of course Noah Taylor is awesome enough that it doesn't really matter, but then he could well have been Hoat as well.

[Hath4]

I actually want to comment on the trailer itself and bring the conversation back in line with the title.

I liked the fact that we'll get the whole Widow's Wail cutting up Tyrion's present thing because it's something important character-wise in the books. Joffrey in one way or another is Martin's worst enemy because he's an uneducated, brattish infant without any appreciation for books and is quite happy to destroy them.

The sansa-Tyrion exchange seems to be there to show that this will never ever be a happy arrangement and that will of course just add to Tyrion's frustration, hence why we get the shot of him angrily throwing stuff around the room. Viewers might at least somewhat get divided regarding his character until the moment he claims to have murdered Joffrey, at which point tey either cheer for him or reject him (I think once he kills Shae they'll start disagreeing with his action's more and more). The jaime/Bronn stuff looks promising, especially since Cersei might start losing interest in Jaime once she sees that he's not the fighter he used to be and it's making the best out of a difficult situation because the actor for ser Illyn has cancer. plus, Bronn is just cool on the show so it's nice they're keeping him around.

essentially the whole Bolton-Theon stuff might move as far ahead as ramsay's marriage by the end of the season, only Yara will be playing the role of fake Arya (which is why in my opinion her name in the show has the same letters as Arya). We clearly get a shot of her fighting someone in a stone castle (either Winterfell or the Dreadfort) so it's easy to assume that she won't turn around for the Kingsmoot (if it happens at all on the show). They might keep the scene where Ramsay threatens to nail Theon's tongue to the door so that might present a nice contrast to his earlier sexual behavior towards his sister in season 2, only here he will be forced to do it against his will. karma comes around, I guess. It would at least cut through some of the fat and still allow both characters to be found by Stannis by the end of season 5 after they've escaped.

Ser Barristan got a great line in, which will showcase Dany's horrible decision-making in the long-run and the siege of Meereen looks great, can't wait for that. The fact that she wants to be more thn just the Mother of Dragons and won't be able to live up to her own expectations will probably be something that carries over into next season. So this year we see the first signs of her downward spiral and next year she won't know how to deal with the Sons of the Harpy

Stannis does not get too much time here in the trailer, although I can understand why: he is the savior of the NW this year so they probably don't want to show more than necessary and keeping the Iron Bank hidden is probably a good choice too.

I wonder if Tormund and the Magnar of Thenn will get along or not? Also, Jon will probably be LC before the battle at the Wall because they won't want to stretch that out for too long.

NB: Oberyn, Elia and Olyvar in one bed? Kinky.

ramsay can not marry yara and pretend she is arya, everybody already knows that she is the daughter of balon greyjoy and led an invasion of the north. it would not work.

[Beric175]

Yeah I liked that they established that Boltons men are really horrible people even if it was at the expense of the Brave Companions who end up not playing any real role later so it's better to introduce the Boltons who are there for a much longer time anyway and who have real influence on the plot.

[Beric175]

Unless they change that part with fake Arya. Maybe they'll put a spin on it, like it's the only thing that would probably reach Balon on some level so he'll stop the invasion and retreat back to the iron islands and so some Northeners might come naturally to the Boltons, since they removed the threat of the Ironborn....(until balon dies of course)? I don't know. I'm gonna wait and see where they're going with this.

[DaveyJoe]

ramsay can not marry yara and pretend she is arya, everybody already knows that she is the daughter of balon greyjoy and led an invasion of the north. it would not work.

Yeah, it was all over twitter. #ironislands #yaragreyjoy #ironprice

[protar]

People seem to honestly believe that the show runners owe them an explanation for any scene changes which frankly I think is absolutely laughable.

The show runners owe you nothing. They don’t have to explain anything. They could replace the Mountain with Robocop if they wanted and not only would that make GOT a billion times better than it already is, they wouldn’t have to explain a thing to you.

They owe you nothing.

Dont like the adaptation? Dont watch it. Its literally that simple.

You want to see the books used as the screen play? Go and buy the rights to the book and make it yourself. Go and make ASOIAF: The Movie or whatever. D&D and making GOT: The TV Show.

I’ve actually heard people being angry that Robert wasn’t 6’6 tall. That Danny isn’t actually 12 years old when Drogo is fucking her...

D&D owe you nothing, this is there adaptation of the novels, and thats that. They in no uncertain terms have to communicate with fans of the source material and explain why they are changing things.

And for the record, I have heard them explain why Cat doesn’t want Ned to go to KL in season 1 which is not what happens in the book. They actually explained themselves and people still whinge about it. They had good reasons as well.

FWIW, I don’t think the show is perfect at all. And I do think that some of the changes are unnecasary based on what i know, which is very little.

Its easy for me to say ‘Why change Jeyne in to Talisa? Just use Jeyne’ but I know nothing of their reasoning behind that change. D&D have a damnsight more experience making TV shows than anyone on this forum. Perhaps we should stop judging something we know nothing at all about?

Go and buy the rights and make ASOIAF: The Movie if you want. Literally use the book and film it scene by scene with an internal monologue voice over for every single person. Make it 500 hours long and film Sansa actually building a snow castle for 4 hours. Have your cast have cosmetic surgery to make them resemble the book characters. Some stupid cunt will still call you out on the bread not being stale enough to be an actual trencher.

Nobody I know feels that they have an obligation to provide explanations. But it would certainly be a nice gesture. If the core fanbase wasn't here D+D wouldn't have a show in the first place. A little bit of interaction with the foundation the show's fanbase was built upon is not too much to ask. They already have behind the episode videos, so why not use those to be open with us about these changes? A little transparency will cost them nothing, and potentially could be a gain for them.

The suggestion to stop watching is for me at least ridiculous. It's still good television, I just don't like it as an adaptation. I vent here, and then I can relax and enjoy whatever D+D have cooked up in a fast food kind of way.

Even more ridiculous is the suggestion that we should just go make our own adaptation. I really hope that's sarcasm. Because most of us aren't in the industry and even if we were or are planning to be, I'm pretty sure Martin's deal with D+D wouldn't allow a separate film franchise based on the same series. And in any case, were I ever put in charge of an ASOIAF adaptation, film would be the last medium I would adapt it into. It's simply too big for 3, 6 or even 9 hours.

The third ridiculous claim is that "D+D know a lot more about television than us so let's stop complaining." I see this argument oh so much but the thing is, it cuts too ways. If I don't know enough about television production to criticise a show, why do you think your limited knowledge of television production allows you to praise it? If we're both in the dark how can we say whether D+D are doing good or bad? And moreover one thing I most certainly am an expert on is what I think works and what doesn't on TV. Maybe Talisa was an incredibly thought out decision based on D+D's Master's degree in televisual production or whatever. It was still awful to watch, regardless of the production smarts that went into it.

[Hath4]

Yeah, it was all over twitter. #ironislands #yaragreyjoy #ironprice

I just don't see her being fake arya because theons entire arc is about being beaten down into reek no longer a man as the bastard of Bolton would say having her involved would just screw that up.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Nobody I know feels that they have an obligation to provide explanations. But it would certainly be a nice gesture. If the core fanbase wasn't here D+D wouldn't have a show in the first place. A little bit of interaction with the foundation the show's fanbase was built upon is not too much to ask. They already have behind the episode videos, so why not use those to be open with us about these changes? A little transparency will cost them nothing, and potentially could be a gain for them.

The suggestion to stop watching is for me at least ridiculous. It's still good television, I just don't like it as an adaptation. I vent here, and then I can relax and enjoy whatever D+D have cooked up in a fast food kind of way.

Even more ridiculous is the suggestion that we should just go make our own adaptation. I really hope that's sarcasm. Because most of us aren't in the industry and even if we were or are planning to be, I'm pretty sure Martin's deal with D+D wouldn't allow a separate film franchise based on the same series. And in any case, were I ever put in charge of an ASOIAF adaptation, film would be the last medium I would adapt it into. It's simply too big for 3, 6 or even 9 hours.

The third ridiculous claim is that "D+D know a lot more about television than us so let's stop complaining." I see this argument oh so much but the thing is, it cuts too ways. If I don't know enough about television production to criticise a show, why do you think your limited knowledge of television production allows you to praise it? If we're both in the dark how can we say whether D+D are doing good or bad? And moreover one thing I most certainly am an expert on is what I think works and what doesn't on TV. Maybe Talisa was an incredibly thought out decision based on D+D's Master's degree in televisual production or whatever. It was still awful to watch, regardless of the production smarts that went into it.

Do you think the books are bigger (more popular, make more money) than the TV show? Because they aren't.

So really, book readers aren't the core fan base. TV viewers are.

Don't get me wrong, I I much prefer the books over the TV show. I even agree with you fast food analogy.

And yeah, it would be nice if they explained their decisions to the book readers. It would be nice if they gave me a 50% profit share on the series as well but they aren't obliged too.

D&D were hand picked by GRRM to adapt this. He trusts them. Perhaps we should too? People go on as if this is being adapted like Dune was. It's not. It's a very faithful adaptation of an extremely complex set of novels.

Tbh I would love to know why Sansa was changed in season 3. Why did her stiff stark knees bend at the wedding? Why does she enjoy Tyrions company?

I guess I'll have to wait and see what the show does with that.

I think criticising decisions you know nothing about is unfair. At the same time D&D could explain these decisions but why should they? Because you like the source material?

ETA: I think Tulisa was a horrible character. Even if I hadn't read the books, I would think that.

"Where's Winterfell?"

"I'm now on your war council"

Terrible.

[Rashtibram]

Nobody I know feels that they have an obligation to provide explanations. But it would certainly be a nice gesture. If the core fanbase wasn't here D+D wouldn't have a show in the first place. A little bit of interaction with the foundation the show's fanbase was built upon is not too much to ask. They already have behind the episode videos, so why not use those to be open with us about these changes? A little transparency will cost them nothing, and potentially could be a gain for them.

Honestly I just don't think an "explanation" from D&D is in any way necessary. You're making it sound like they should be apologizing to purists for changing things from the books. Changes are a necessary evil in any adaptation (I challenge you to find a book-to-screen adaptation which does not alter the source material), and D&D have been better than most in this regard. Yes, season 2 sometimes went off the rails a little, but seasons 1 and 3 have been as close to direct transcriptions of a book as I think I've seen in any medium before (ETA: I think the only reason season 3 is generally viewed as less faithful than season 1 is because it had to contend with the changes which were carried over from season 2). I do believe that one can account for nearly every major deviation D&D have made by factoring in budget and time-frame limitations, pacing issues, the book's impossible-to-adapt complexity, and the domino effect implemented by previous alterations. Yes, the showrunners have made certain mistakes, and some changes were definitely unnecessary – sometimes even cringeworthy (one of my major complaints about the series is the inclination on D&D's part towards traditional, hollywood-style love stories, as opposed to the twisted ones found in Martin's work) – but these changes are ultimately not huge detriments, and I just can't stand grand dismissals of the entire show based on what is essentially purist nitpicking.

[protar]

Do you think the books are bigger (more popular, make more money) than the TV show? Because they aren't.

So really, book readers aren't the core fan base. TV viewers are.

Don't get me wrong, I I much prefer the books over the TV show. I even agree with you fast food analogy.

Core does not mean the biggest part of something. In fact it means the exact opposite - the smallest part at something's centre. The book readers may be in the minority, but make no mistake we are the core of the fanbase. Do you really think Game of Thrones would ever have been made if A Song of Ice and Fire wasn't already an incredibly popular fantasy series? This is not to belittle the show only fans - the earth would be nothing without it's core, but wouldn't be anything without it's crust either - it's simply a statement of truth.

And yeah, it would be nice if they explained their decisions to the book readers. It would be nice if they gave me a 50% profit share on the series as well but they aren't obliged too.

A ridiculous strawman. One is a reasonable request, the other isn't. No points for guessing which is which.

D&D were hand picked by GRRM to adapt this. He trusts them. Perhaps we should too? People go on as if this is being adapted like Dune was. It's not. It's a very faithful adaptation of an extremely complex set of novels.

And again, I question whether Martin knew what he was getting into. When he sealed the deal with D+D did he know that they were going to begin to make unnecessary changes in season 2 and beyond? Or did he think he was getting 7 or 8 seasons of Season 1 levels of fidelity?

Tbh I would love to know why Sansa was changed in season 3. Why did her stiff stark knees bend at the wedding? Why does she enjoy Tyrions company?

I guess I'll have to wait and see what the show does with that.

I think criticising decisions you know nothing about is unfair. At the same time D&D could explain these decisions but why should they? Because you like the source material?

Because if their motives and respect for the source material is as pure as some people say it is, they stand to lose nothing from being honest and open with the fanbase. If they're being criticised and have a perfectly good explanation that would dismantle said criticism and win purists over to their side, well come on then D+D...spill the beans. The fact that they've never sat down with an interviewer and talked about say changing Tyrion and Sansa's relationship, that they've never explained that change in a behind the episodes video, suggests that they just don't have a good defence.

In this particular case it's painfully obvious to me that they just love Tyrion and didn't want him to interact with anyone in a way that might cause people to dislike him (as a faithful representation of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage would). And because of that, they can hardly come out and be honest about why the change was made. Same reason why they've never talked about Talisa. Again, it was made simply to strip out the complexities of the book and replace a more original plot line with a more conventional one. But D+D can't very well say that now can they?

If they have good reasons, there's no reason not to share them with us.

ETA: I think Tulisa was a horrible character. Even if I hadn't read the books, I would think that.

"Where's Winterfell?"

"I'm now on your war council"

Terrible.

Well glad we can agree somewhere :P

[The Prince of Newcastle]

I don't really disagree with you mate tbh. I would love a 5 hour interview where D&D explain every little thing they've done to the story. It would be very interesting tbh.

I just don't think they ever will and I don't think they owe it to the book fans to do so. It would be nice though.

Tyrion has been white washed is agree. I personally feel that is because someone at HBO, maybe not D&D, have demanded a hero in the story. Someone to route for. Tyrion is more... TV friendly than Jon (An actual hero character) say. He's also probably the biggest star in the show. Maybe dinklidge didn't want to have a singer murdered and fed to the poor? Maybe HBO thought "No that's too much for our main man".

I think a lot of changes are forced on the show runners. By HBO.

I also don't think there's enough time to fully get into the minds of each character and doing "good guys" and "bad guys" is the best way to fix that problem? I'm not sure tbh.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

Season 1 is the most faithful part of the adaptation I agree. It's nowhere near 100% though and misses massively important scenes such as TOJ.

Season 3 was my favourite season tbh.

[Mr Fixit]

Because if their motives and respect for the source material is as pure as some people say it is, they stand to lose nothing from being honest and open with the fanbase. If they're being criticised and have a perfectly good explanation that would dismantle said criticism and win purists over to their side, well come on then D+D...spill the beans.

Two problems:

1. This assumes purists are reasonable people who can be "won over" by "good explanations". While undoubtedly many are, in my experience with several TV show fandoms, a good chunk of purists are the ultimate opposite of reasonable. In fact, many are approaching "frothing at the mouth rabid". :whip: ^_^ Appeasing them is a futile endeavour bound to increase their sense of entitlement.

Bryan Cogman tried to be open with the fanbase and all it got him is a legion of insufferable morons spewing hate all over him which in the end forced Bryan to retreat from social media.

[King of the Road]

Two problems:

1. This assumes purists are reasonable people who can be "won over" by "good explanations". While undoubtedly many are, in my experience with several TV show fandoms, a good chunk of purists are the ultimate opposite of reasonable. Appeasing them is a futile endeavour bound to increase their sense of entitlement.

Bryan Cogman tried to be open with the fanbase and all it got him is a legion of insufferable morons spewing hate all over him which in the end forced Bryan to retreat from social media.

He's back on Twitter now though isn't he?

[protar]

Two problems:

1. This assumes purists are reasonable people who can be "won over" by "good explanations". While undoubtedly many are, in my experience with several TV show fandoms, a good chunk of purists are the ultimate opposite of reasonable. In fact, many are approaching "frothing at the mouth rabid". :whip: ^_^ Appeasing them is a futile endeavour bound to increase their sense of entitlement.

Bryan Cogman tried to be open with the fanbase and all it got him is a legion of insufferable morons spewing hate all over him which in the end forced Bryan to retreat from social media.

1. Those purists are a minority. D+D shouldn't punish all of us because of them.

2. Why not go into the changes through the behind the episode videos? Or even a separate but similar segment? There's not as much room for negativity when the communication is one way, but we can still come and discuss their explanations here.

[Joyful Union]

Maybe because the majority of people who watch the show aren't book readers, and that's the target audience for these behind the episode videos.

[Abaddon]

I actually enjoyed Vargo Hoat in the books and was really looking forward to seeing him in the show, but Noah Taylor completely won me over with his performance, so I'm not upset with that change. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, they are just different, and I enjoy both.

I think Vargo would have been very difficult (perhaps impossible) to do faithfully on-screen without it very quickly verging into camp. I do miss a little of the Brave Companions including folks from Essos, but it is certainly not a big deal it isn't there. And I think Locke is fine character in the show anyway.

[Le Cygne]

Comic book readers are way more a minority for The Walking Dead (which is a super popular show) but they talk to the fans freely about the changes, it adds another level of interest. And they discuss the stories in depth, there's even The Talking Dead. I love watching that show.