Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[wolfmaid7]

I agree that the 'Ice and Fire' dichotomy would work with just men. However, I think Black Crow is reading way too much into that dedication. I tried to see if Martin was ever asked about it, and while I couldn't (easily) find anything in SSM, I found this explanation:

"GRRM has talked about this in interviews. It was very early in the process of creating the series, and actually, the choice was "magic or no magic" -- he wasn't sure whether to make the series fantasy or more like a historical fiction. And his friend Phyllis Eisenstein, another fantasy author, urged him to put the dragons in. The "no magic" option would've meant "no Others" also, so it would obviously be a very different series." (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1zco1c/for_phyllisspoilers_all/)

So, once dragons are in the story, they're going to be an integral part of the Song of Ice and Fire IMO.

Very interesting potential parallel between two characters that already have lots. I'm not sure what Dany might do, but this is something to keep in mind.

:agree:

Yeah, that's kind of the picture it invokes in my head...

Yes. I'd like to see a scene where one of Dany's dragons descends on the Iron Throne and melts it down.

Well that makes a bit of sense and alters my perception a bit,because the earlier might have alluded to her being not as significant on account of someone's request that Dragons be in it for sprucing.

There are two cover illustrations for a Dream of Spring, but the image is just the opposite. One cover is a necklace with a wolf pendant, the other is a tombstone, so I think that particular book will be about devastation with maybe an inkling of hope at the very end.

What of Daenery's "dragon dream" (for lack of a better word) where she dreamt of melting Others with dragon fire at the Trident with the water causing the river to overflow? Unless that was a scene from the past? Is it possible that there used to be another ice wall at Moat Cailin and the Hammer all those years ago were dragons?

Ah, but Bran does eat human flesh when Coldhands killed those rangers and brought it into the cave as "pig". Jojen and Meera say something about squirrel meat, which I believe is a euphemism for human flesh, and Bran thinks to himself that he doesn't care what kind of meat it is because it's tastes good. Jojen on the other hand, take tiny bites as if disgusted with the knowledge of what it is, but too hungry to not eat it.

New to Heresy? You'll be hard pressed to find any of the regulars here that think Jon will assume the Iron Throne, or even the possibility that him being Targaryen holds any promise. It's his mother, Lyanna that makes him a son of Winterfell and his purpose will be to fulfill some Stark role. Being that wolves and ravens are allies in real life, I expect that whatever he does it will be an assist to the crows and ravens. The wolves kill the game and share the feast with the crows.

Dany's dragon dreams to me are the kicker as to where she will inevitably end up.I've quoted that trident dream before and believe based on the ending of that dream as a "torrent" that Dany's involvement in any violent way will be bad news.I do agree with BC about Dany's place being in Valyria to reconcile fire there or it being the place Drogon in her dreams view as home.Where ever that place is,that is where she has to be.

I'll agree that I don't see her as the savior either. I think she may however, end up representing the destructive side of fire, which will beset Westeros. Now whether she battles the creeping ice to the north (and heaven help those caught in the middle) or is simply a parallel destructive force, I'm not sure. I think a lot of this depends on whether we're seeing a Ragnorak climax (multiple grudges coming to the fore at once) or we are seeing a cyvasse ending, two players positioning their pieces on the Westeros game board.

Dany is a toss up more on account of her naivete and entitlement attitude,makes her prone to all kinds of missteps.

I don't agree with your interpretation of that article. I take it to mean that the only thing they'd discussed was the very end, up until recently, and while I agree that the very end doesn't necessarily include Arya and Daenerys, I don't think that means they aren't involved in the lead up right at the end. Perhaps George told them something like Arya and Daenerys would die, but he didn't tell them how. Perhaps he told them that Jon Snow would actually be the last remaining one to take power after defeating the Others, but he takes the throne (or what's left) out of a sense of duty, not because he sought it.

We can't pretend that just because they didn't know the destination for Dany or Arya that they aren't in Westeros or that they aren't involved in the final action. I don't think those necessarily are exclusive.

I also reject the concept that because GRRM said that he'd added Dragons for his wife meant that he added an entire story of "fire" just specifically for them, and that he'd never intended to include the Targaryens.

As for balance, that is a point we agree upon, however, I believe that the "fire" side was already balanced with the Doom of Valyria, and what we'll see with the Others and Westeros is a similar cataclysmic event of Ice.

Some good points,though i don't agree that the Doom was a balancing act.

im personally in the camp that jon targaryen made a promise and oath to the nights watch, and even finding out his lineage, he wouldnt use it "by rights" as stannis would to ascend the throne. no, he thinks and has a mind for the realm, and if he could find out way out of his little dilemma at the moment, i think he'd be a brother of the watch, through and through

I think the beauty will be in the struggle for Jon,I'm sure he will be torn three ways from Sunday as to what he should do.

Just so. They were baked in at a very, very early point in the creative process.

[King Benjen II]

ICE AND FIRE

Just by way of starting off this thread I thought that following some of the discussion in Heresy 101, that it might be worth taking a broader look at the Song of Ice and Fire. It is after all what this story is supposed to be all about, and yet the true nature of that struggle is obscure.

Inevitably this also means that we need to look at the problem of Jon Snow, but at the outset Id like to stress that Id rather not see this discussion descending into an alternative version of the R+L=J thread on the main board. In one sense Jon Snows parentage isnt really an issue. There have been and will continue to be alternative theories offered, but for all practical purposes I see no good reason to doubt that Jon Snow is the son of Lya Stark.

So what might this mean in terms of the story and its eventual outcome?

To a large extent this may be a matter of perspective. Ultimately, is this a story about the struggle for the Iron Throne and is the threatened invasion by the Others no more than an Ordeal which the hero must undergo in order to prove himself or herself the rightful ruller of Westeros? Or is it indeed the Song of Ice and Fire, in which the game of thrones is the dangerous distraction?

The recent Benioff and Weiss interview inadvertently threw some interesting light on this. It has always been understood that they know how GRRM intends the story to end. Well and good, but it seems they dont know what is to become of a number of major characters including Arya Stark and Danaerys Targaryen. Presumably therefore we can lay to rest the fantasy that Dany and her Amazing Dragons will save the day in a great battle against the armies of the undead, somewhere not too far removed from the Trident. Benioff and Weiss know the ending and it apparently doesnt involve Dany.

Instead their uncertainty as to her eventual fate sharply brings into focus the simple fact that this story is and always has been about the Starks and to a lesser extent the Lannisters.

The Targaryens, whether dead Rhaegar or any number of pretenders to the Iron Throne are in the end irrelevant. Its worth bearing in mind here that in one of his dedications GRRM thanked a colleague who made me put the dragons in. Again this statement bears further consideration. At a superficial level it can be read as GRRM being persuaded to jazz the story up by including big scaly beasties with wings and an appetite for char-grilled mutton. However we also see the term dragon used as a synonym for the Targaryens who are so closely associated with said beasties. The two go together so when GRRM was persuaded to include the dragons, it means that neither the beasties not the Targaryens figured in his original plans.

The concept of the story began, were told, with the mental picture of the dead direwolf in the forest and with GRRMs actual vision of Hadrians Wall. Its about the North, about the Wall and what lies beyond. From the very beginning we are given hints of something special or at least a special relationship between the Starks and Winter. Its that connection, through the direwolves and whatever lies at the bottom of those stairs to Hell under Winterfell which defines the outcome. Jon Snow has grown up a bastard, rejected by his foster mother and ultimately by the rest of his family, even including Robb who insists that he cannot be Lord of Winterfell because he is a bastard. Little wonder therefore that Jon should dream of the crypts below Winterfell and Stark ghosts telling him that he does not belong. But yet, seemingly he must go there; not to discover a mouldy piece of parchment, a harp or a dragon egg or any of the other proof hopefully demanded in another place, but instead he must go further down those stairs to Hell. Maester Aemon hailed him as a son of Winterfell and it is as a son of Winterfell; as Lya Starks son, that he must confront and perhaps even embrace the family secret something that the son of Rhaegar Targaryen cannot do.

As to the dragons then, in that other place there are some who would no doubt argue that Danaerys Targaryens absence from the ending is confirmation of a happy assumption that she as well as the equally inconvenient Aegon will be safely dead long before, leaving Jon Snow as the unchallenged Targaryen candidate. Instead I would argue it points to something quite different; that Dany and her Amazing Dragons are destined to go into Valyria and confront the Fire while Jon alone must deal with Ice. The essence of that remark about putting the dragons in, surely, is not about simply adding the beasties but about expanding the original concept of a story about the Family Stark and their connection to Winter into the far wider Song of Ice and Fire, not just balancing the two elements, but balancing the Winterfell story of Ice with a Targaryen story of Fire.

Does their lack of knowledge of Dany's end mean she dies before the end in story? Perhaps she dies facing Fire in Valaryia.

[King Benjen II]

Double post.

We came down

The rivers and highways

We came down from

Forests and falls

We came down from

Carson and Springfield

We came down from

Phoenix enthralled

And I can tell you

The names of the Kingdom

I can tell you

The things that you know

Listening for a fistful of silence

Climbing valleys into the shade

for seven years, i dwelt

in the loose palace of exile

playing strange games with the girls of the island

now, i have come again

to the land of the fair, and the strong, and the wise

brothers and sisters of the pale forest

children of night

who among you will run with the hunt?

now night arrives with her purple legion

Retire now to your tents and to your dreams

Tomorrow we enter the town of my birth

I want to be ready'

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think GRRM's possible title for his last book is Dream of Spring (or something to that effect), which makes me think the book ends in a background of bleakness but at least with the posibility of better days ahead?

I think he's telling the story of the second Long Night, and it will ultimately end with the defeat of the Others, but it will cause the destruction of most of westeros and the nobility.

[Blazfemur]

I think he's telling the story of the second Long Night, and it will ultimately end with the defeat of the Others, but it will cause the destruction of most of westeros and the nobility.

oh i love that. then add in kings landing being demolished, and the 7 kingdoms becoming 7 kingdoms

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Not bad at all.

But try this: No more Iron Throne. No more one big king. Seven kingdoms again, as in the good old days.

My vision for the end is trapping the Others and the Wights within the walls of King's Landing and burning it to the ground with Wildfire.

Destroying King's Landing and the Iron Throne along with it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

also: for that to happen, i think the faith militant would need to be destroyed as well. if actual history has proven anything, you know fully well the church will try to claim itself the highest power eventually. just look at how quickly the sparrows are rising, and rh'llor

If not the Others trapped in King's Landing with it burned down by wildfire, my other guess is that Cersei burns it down with Wildfire when she loses power.

[Blazfemur]

If not the Others trapped in King's Landing with it burned down by wildfire, my other guess is that Cersei burns it down with Wildfire when she loses power.

i like it but i cant picture EVERY other in there. i can however, see a vast amount of others being burned, but i like the concept of a dystopian westeros, and a constant zombiewatch and an endless winter/long night

[TheTowerOfJoy]

New to Heresy? You'll be hard pressed to find any of the regulars here that think Jon will assume the Iron Throne, or even the possibility that him being Targaryen holds any promise. It's his mother, Lyanna that makes him a son of Winterfell and his purpose will be to fulfill some Stark role. Being that wolves and ravens are allies in real life, I expect that whatever he does it will be an assist to the crows and ravens. The wolves kill the game and share the feast with the crows.

Admittedly I'm new to Heresy, but I definitely think Jon's parentage on BOTH sides is important. One will help him fulfill his destiny in the North, and the other with get those in the South to acknowledge him.

I don't think there will be a throne left to sit on, however.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

i like it but i cant picture EVERY other in there. i can however, see a vast amount of others being burned, but i like the concept of a dystopian westeros, and a constant zombiewatch and an endless winter/long night

You're right that that may not destroy them all, and there's some indication that destroying their bodies doesn't really destroy them (the bit about melting away in the sun). But, I think the key lies in the Heart of Winter, where there is some sort of structure that is equivalent to the volcanoes of Valyria for Ice, that will ultimately have to be destroyed to end the threat for good, and I think it's possible that is Dany's fate to cause an Ice Cataclysm similar to the Doom.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I'm thinking Coldhands is an example of what happens when Starks die and no one wards the crypt.

Ned's brother Brandon strangled to death, and there was no word of him turning into a walking corpse.

[FainRivers]

I'm thinking Coldhands is an example of what happens when Starks die and no one wards the crypt.

I've always suspected he was the NK, but I like this theory!

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Some good points,though i don't agree that the Doom was a balancing act.

The original Doom was not a "balancing" act, it was the act that set everything out of balance, and now to re-balance there must be some sort of cataclysm to the Ice side of the equation.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think the beauty will be in the struggle for Jon,I'm sure he will be torn three ways from Sunday as to what he should do.

That part I agree with.

[Grey Words]

I keep thinking about the geothermal activity below Winterfell and and the apparent volcanic activity and its devastation at Hardhome and am wondering if those are evidence of a northern fire element that must be kept in balance? Is it a Stark in Winterfell that keeps that fire element in check and prevents a Valyria-like devastation from occurring on Westeros?

[Melifeather]

Ned's brother Brandon strangled to death, and there was no word of him turning into a walking corpse.

Ned's brother Brandon is sealed in a crypt. We don't have a description of his crypt to know whether or not there's any iron warding him. Furthermore, we don't how his body was prepared. For example, only Ned's bones are on their way home to Winterfell. The skeletal remains having been removed of their flesh. Coldhands, on the other hand, is clearly dead and his body is intact as well as his faculties. He's an elevated wight-form, but why? I am positing that it's because he's a Stark and that warg blood must have something to do with it.

[wolfmaid7]

The original Doom was not a "balancing" act, it was the act that set everything out of balance, and now to re-balance there must be some sort of cataclysm to the Ice side of the equation.

I'm saying the moment the Valyrian's dug to deep and found Dragon's hibernating,that started the deed.They should not have been awaken.They could have been sleeping hundreds of years,eggs could have laid dormant for thousands of years until conditions were right to wake them.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Ned's brother Brandon is sealed in a crypt. We don't have a description of his crypt to know whether or not there's any iron warding him. Furthermore, we don't how his body was prepared. For example, only Ned's bones are on their way home to Winterfell. The skeletal remains having been removed of their flesh. Coldhands, on the other hand, is clearly dead and his body is intact as well as his faculties. He's an elevated wight-form, but why? I am positing that it's because he's a Stark and that warg blood must have something to do with it.

So they lie dead for a significant amount of time, and if not entombed by some point they rise from the dead?

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, it's just not one I agree with. There is something there, I'm just not sure what it is.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I'm saying the moment the Valyrian's dug to deep and found Dragon's hibernating,that started the deed.They should not have been awaken.They could have been sleeping hundreds of years,eggs could have laid dormant for thousands of years until conditions were right to wake them.

I suppose that's possible. I more meant that by snuffing out most of the power of fire, that the power of Ice is now rising, and will require a "doom" like cataclysmic event to "balance" it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Changing subjects for a second...

I find it ironic that a comet can represent both Ice and Fire, as comets are balls of Ice, but they appear to be fiery balls of light and fire.

Is there any possibility that the Doom was caused by a comet crashing into Valyria?