Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

So can we assume that there "strength" isn't strength.

[JNR]

In the sense of bench-pressing, you mean? Sure.

Their strength is their deadly speed, their invulnerability except to dragonglass (that we know of...) and their apparent ability to summon and command wight armies from their slain enemies.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

There is that mention of dragon steel, plus, according to legend, they have been defeated before. Which isn't to say they aren't formidable.

[Urrax2]

...There are also no references in the annals of the Night's Watch describing the Others as having the power to shift between phases of matter. It seems quite a stretch.

It's a rusty recollection, but don't one or more of the wildings Jon chats with during his espionage period talk about them becoming mist?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I agree it's not really very godly at all... which is why, encumbered by Small Paul, it was unable to cope with an exceptionally slow, exceptionally fat Night's Watchman who was described as "falling" directly at it, with his outstretched hand full of an obsidian dagger.

There are also no references in the annals of the Night's Watch describing the Others as having the power to shift between phases of matter. It seems quite a stretch.

True. Except in death, at least by obsidian. A good question is what happens to the Others during the day. Do they stick to a tree like a chameleon until the sun goes away. Maybe. Could they dissipate until night falls. We have not been shown yet. There is the statement of appearing in a snow storm then melting away when the sky clears.

Eta they could be just a cold spirit dring the day. Blowing around on th wind, powerless. Then when darkness falls they can take the deadly solid humanoid form. Its not that big a stretch.

[JNR]

There is that mention of dragon steel, plus, according to legend, they have been defeated before. Which isn't to say they aren't formidable.

True, but the dragonsteel mention comes from a myth written by the Andals. Since the Andals brought steel to Westeros, and the Long Night happened long before that point, the true nature of "dragonsteel" has yet to be determined.

Valyrian steel is not a likely candidate; it's a little surprising Jon doesn't realize that instantly, when he hears the reference. (I think someone once pointed out that he knows nothing.)

It's a rusty recollection, but don't one or more of the wildings Jon chats with during his espionage period talk about them becoming mist?

I think you mean Tormund, in DwD? It's not clear exactly what he's saying:

A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest …

My own inclination is to assume he means the extreme supernatural cold the Others are constantly associated with.

Generally speaking: If the Others could assume a mist form and still command the wights, why wouldn't they do it and stay that way?

There seems to be no advantage in solidifying, which only makes them vulnerable to a dragonglass-head arrow not even they are fast enough to dodge.

[JNR]

True. Except in death, at least by obsidian. A good question is what happens to the Others during the day.

Uh huh. A puzzler. I can only guess that if the winter conditions are extreme enough, the sun still can't warm them enough to hurt them.

In other words, the threat of the daytime is not a UV light issue (like vampires) but a heat issue.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Exactly, when it is not cold enough to walk around during the day, then they are dormant in some fashion. I do not see them lying around like old Jafer and Othor, where someone could stumble upon them. So dissipation is a good bet, I would say. But I will not bet the bank though.

[nanother]

Tormund also says:

“They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”

ETA: Will also feels as if something had been watching them all day

[Urrax2]

"The Others never come when the sun is up," said Mance in Storm chapter 73.

[wolfmaid7]

Good point JNR, so just that got some thinking down. They raise the dead, can shift between states of matter, kill people with a mist, all without being seen.And when they are they are lightning fast in camo.So fast and so stealthily a fat dude shanked you. MMA never give up your back

But I got to say it and not laugh, how did these guys loose? That's like the worse special Ops team in magical history.

Eta:Mance nor Tourmond actually saw WWs.They saw Wights for sure and "thought".Others.

If there is to be a fight between the red lot and the White lot even with Dragons it will be like watching someone skate for the first time.

[wolfmaid7]

Tormund also says:

Theyre never far, you know. They wont come out by day, not when that old suns shining, but dont think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you dont see them, but theyre always clinging to your heels.

ETA: Will also feels as if something had been watching them all day

I don't see how that is proof , "might be you don't see them".is the proof that they didn't see them.The ambiguity keeps comming.

[nanother]

*shrug* I didn't say it was proof. Just thought I'd add this bit of info, since people don't seem to be aware of it: Tormund thinks they're still around during the day, somehow.

[JNR]

Exactly, when it is not cold enough to walk around during the day, then they are dormant in some fashion. I do not see them lying around like old Jafer and Othor, where someone could stumble upon them. So dissipation is a good bet, I would say. But I will not bet the bank though.

Maybe. It's hard to say based on the two scenes we've been fed that they even sleep.

And suppose they don't transform, but are constantly solid. If a wildling encountered an Other, I doubt that wildling would have reported back.

"It were nappin' on its side and snoring, like... so I crept backwards and it never knew."

Just can't picture that. I think Mr. Wildling would have been in deep trouble.

The ambiguity keeps coming.

Like Mance's endless train of free folk. Or a porn star.

[Black Crow]

Tormund also says:

“They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”

ETA: Will also feels as if something had been watching them all day

Perhaps its as simple as that. Perhaps they are indeed shadows; like those birthed by Mel. We saw how Varamyr "flew" after being expelled from Thistle's body and how Mel's shadow babies were similarly a part of Stannis, drawn from his spirit. He, as it happens is the one who refers to them as demons made of snow and ice and cold; so perhaps they are wargs who can create new bodies for themselves which are stable but only for so long as it is cold enough.

[wolfmaid7]

OOOOOO JNR with a groaner.

I harp on this a lot i know, in honesty what i want to be going on is what most here think,the problem though is that it doesn't match what is happening. To many in inaccuracies and assumption based on preconceived beliefs and long standing notions about who the enemy is and what they can and can't do.

Can we say for 100% certainty that when the horn blew thrice for Others that who blew the horn saw dead people walking and assumed oh shit "WWs are coming" that he actually saw WWs.

From Tourmond's statement can it be 100% definite proof that he saw WWs and isn't making the same association based on stories that have been told for thousands of years.A lot of Old Nan's tales have been proven to have a bit of untruth to it.When we have observed objectively the events that have happened that we have been privy to,there is some serious flaws in reasoning displayed by the characters.

It reminds me of a joke,of a man who came home nightly to find strange hairs that wasn't his on his bed.Proceeded to beat his wife.She got the message,the next night he came home and there were no hairs and he beat her again. he said honey why did you beat me. He screamed you cheated on me with a bald dude.

Now was he right,was the wife innocent or did she remove the hair?

Did it matter? The end result she still got beat,and he still believed she cheated.

My point is its good and well to consider both alternatives,if it makes a difference in the end,only time will tell.Are WWs at the scene hiding in the bushes? Or are they not there at all?

What i do see is that both elements of cold and fire can inhabit.

Mel is a perfect example and what she did to V6 is even a better one.Fire inhabited burnt him,drove him from the Eagle much like how he drove out Haggon from his wolf.

Same with the Dead,they are being inhabited by something like a skinchanger. Is both expressions of fire and ice any different from each other...No.

I don't think the WWs are raising the dead,what ever is doing that is like a Skinchanger. Can WWs mass skinchange Thousands of Creatures dying all over the North. I don't think so.

[JNR]

It reminds me of a joke,of a man who came home nightly to find strange hairs that wasn't his on his bed.Proceeded to beat his wife.She got the message,the next night he came home and there were no hairs and he beat her again. She said honey why did you beat me. He screamed you cheated on me with a bald dude.

Oh, such an assumption.

How did he know it wasn't a bald woman?

[Black Crow]

I think I mentioned this before. My first read thru I thought Lyanna is the mother of Jon. I did not pick up anything about his father. I did not think it important. That Jon is actualy Ned's nephew was The twist. Then I came to the forums and saw all the hype of R., but didnt buy the marriage angle. I still do not believe his parentage to be important. Except for closure on the mystery mother, if he ever learns of it. I could be wrong though.

Unless it's Qhorin.

Eta I do want to know the truth of the matter.

Anyway, back to the point...

As you say it really isn't difficult to pick up the hints that Jon's mother was Lya Stark. That being so the most likely and arguably only candidate for his father is Rhaegar Targaryen. The problem which then arises the question of whether that is important in itself, or the reason why there is a secret. If, just for the sake of argument, Lya had been knocked up by Howland Reed would there be such a need for secrecy? As it is there is a terrible irony that Jon's father is the man who kicked all of this off, sparking the rebellion and the overthrow of the Targaryens, the rise and fall of Robert Baratheon and the exultation of the Lannisters and ultimately the death of Ned Stark and the effective destruction of House Stark. All that alone is a pretty powerful twist in the story and gives so much more point to Maester Aemon's declaration that Jon is a son of Winterfell, for it will fall to him, the bastard son of Lya Stark, to restore the Starks just as the son of that unnamed Stark girl and Bael the Bard did.

As I've said before that ultimately is the point of the Bael the Bard story; its the bastard who becomes Lord of Winterfell and as such is the one to descend those stairs to Hell.

Conversely, the problem with the Jon son of Rhaegar theory is that it conspicuously fails to address that. Jon is seen in terms of a Targaryen prince and rightful king of Westeros who will defeat the Others astride a Targaryen dragon donated one way or another by Danaerys. There is ringing talk of of him representing the balance as a son of both ice and fire but a curious lack of a workable theory as to how this will actually work out in practice in an outcome that envisages the defeat of Ice but says nothing of how such a victory will serve to balance the Fire

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Tormund also says:

Theyre never far, you know. They wont come out by day, not when that old suns shining, but dont think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you dont see them, but theyre always clinging to your heels.

ETA: Will also feels as if something had been watching them all day

Good catch. I am looking at what happens to Others in the daytime. I know it is not stated what they do or where they go. Yet there are clues in the texts. The Others and wights are weak and powerless in the sunshine. There is a feeling of being watched, this statement of the shadows never go away and lingering in the day. We see Ser Puddles dissipate into water and mist from being stabbed with frozen fire. And a couple more clues to go with it. I can gather these and see the possibility of the Others are only solid when it is cold enough. This is when they are formidable. I do not believe every character that has something to say about Others is unreliable.

Anyway, I will leave at that until next time.

[King of Winters]

Good catch. I am looking at what happens to Others in the daytime. I know it is not stated what they do or where they go. Yet there are clues in the texts. The Others and wights are weak and powerless in the sunshine. There is a feeling of being watched, this statement of the shadows never go away and lingering in the day. We see Ser Puddles dissipate into water and mist from being stabbed with frozen fire. And a couple more clues to go with it. I can gather these and see the possibility of the Others are only solid when it is cold enough. This is when they are formidable. I do not believe every character that has something to say about Others is unreliable.

Anyway, I will leave at that until next time.

Isn't it day time in the show when the WW attack the Fist? It might nit matter but I noticed it and though it was strange since they're said not to appear in the day.

I don't think they are turned to slush when the sun's out, but they're may just be weakened and more venerable than in the night.