Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[JNR]

Conversely, the problem with the Jon son of Rhaegar theory is that it conspicuously fails to address that. Jon is seen in terms of a Targaryen prince and rightful king of Westeros who will defeat the Others astride a Targaryen dragon donated one way or another by Danaerys. There is ringing talk of of him representing the balance as a son of both ice and fire but a curious lack of a workable theory as to how this will actually work out in practice in an outcome that envisages the defeat of Ice but says nothing of how such a victory will serve to balance the Fire

Yes, indeed.

There are many other problems with the theory. The R+L=J camp has persuaded itself that they're all taken care of, but really, they aren't. Not even close. You have to multiply one improbable idea by several others -- they must all be true, however unlikely that might seem -- to accept the theory.

I could write out a list, but once anybody gets into this subject it tends to derail a thread. Any thread.

However, I will say the best evidence that Jon is a legit Targaryen king is the presence of the Kingsguard at the ToJ. Recently I read analysis of this in the R+L=J thread and realized there is a serious problem that they've not accounted for yet.

I can get into this on request, but again, this is the sort of area that tends to be very divisive and to completely dominate discussion once it comes up.

[Black Crow]

Fire away, at least you'll get a hearing on this thread.

[wolfmaid7]

To echo BC "Fire away", let the rose glasses turn to mud.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've always understood the Doom to be volcanic by nature.

What if a comet slamming into the volcanoes caused a super eruption somehow?

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

That's some aim. Unless we are to understand that it is not a force of nature, and therefor random, but the force of some deliberate power.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

I've always had suspicions about the Stonemen, stone golems, and a literary link to the wrights.

I agree with you on this. I think the description of the "coldness" that seemed to be related with the Stone men in the Sorrows sounded like exactly what would happen if the "cold" typically associated with the White Walkers and/or Wights were to invade one of the warmer regions in Essos.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

in light of the way the discussion seems to be going I will add what I think the whole series is hitting at:

On this business of Ice and Fire I am not entirely sure that it is a question of Ice over Fire and vice versa. In fact I am not too sure it’s about the two finding a way to balance each other and (to borrow a phrase from Terry Pratchett) to have them exchange dominions annually so that one will be kept in check with the other.

Rather looking at the overall picture represented by the story. The political side, I feel shouldn’t be ignore. More than half the book is about the game of thrones. This to me points to the resolution has to include a form of peaceful resolution of this as well. I don’t think the Iron Throne will be smashed and that will be the end of all high kings/queens. Rather a ruler free of political influence or persuasion will sit it. Or if s/he is not free of such then it is based on doing the best for the people.

Much of this story echoes how atonement for past wrongs heals the human heart; both for the ruler and the small folk (hate that phase). Another hint is how Jaimie and Brienne’s whole arcs are about atonement. If we suppose Sandor survived so will his be, because the whole purpose and speech of the Elder Brother is about just that: atonement and redemption.

Anyway moving on to my point, Dany is definitely atoning for her ancestors’ wrongs by smashing the slave trade. As the last of a ruling line of Valaryans, a ruthlessly enslaving peolpe, she is the only one who can accomplish this.. Yes she is ruthless and Tywinesque at times but her heart is pure: She wants to end the abomination that is using human flesh as a commodity which is bought and sold without self-approval. She is in fact healing or rectifying the wrongs done by her people.

The Starks on the other hand are different. As a First Man he needed, rectify the harm done by (fill in the blank) by building the Wall and subjugating all those men and races behind it, because in a way they have condemned those peoples to a terrible way of life. The Singers are sequestered; the Giants are abhorred (cf Wun Wun;) their mammoths are nearly gone and the Free folk themselves are only free in so far as they remain in the Lands beyond the Wall, where there is little to sustain them. Great massacres have occurred whenever they have tried to better their lot.

Job by allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall has in effect healed minenia of wrongs. That he is feeding them too at the detriment of the Night’s Watch is a form of atonement. Just like Dany, he has taken into his fold the enemy/oppressed and in both cases that means increased political power. They are both just and worthy rulers of any kingdom.

I think this is a perfect big picture description of the series. The theme of opposing forces rectifying for past mistakes in order to restore optimal balance is the reason why that despite the differences between the TV show and books, the show will ultimately end up being satisfyingly faithful to the books.

[Eira Seren]

this could get a bit long, sorry!

I agree, and I also once again question this business of "a time of great darkness".

I think that the immediate association with the Long Night is far too hasty. We really don't get anything about the Long Night affecting Essos and with Winter coming to Westeros Jon is confident of keeping the Watch supplied from Essos - just so long as he can pay for those supplies. GRRM has confirmed there is a magical reason for the dodgy seasons and so the Long Night may be a euphimism for an exceptionally long Winter in Westeros alone.

The Azor Ahai propecy is sufficiently well known in Essos for Sallhador San to explain to Davos some of the bits left out by Melisandre, so I'm still very much inclined to read it as an Essosi thing rather than a retelling of the Last Hero. There's no hint when Westerosi characters are told the story or of the story that it is an eastern version of their own Last Hero.

Therefore I still argue that this is a deliberate trap; that the all too easy assumption that the "time of great darkness" was the Long Night is there to screen the fact that the darkness spoken of is metaphorical and that it was a time of great evil rather than when somebody switched the lights out. Hence the suggestion that Dany is indeed Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised, having ticked all the right boxes fair and square, but the kicker is that instead of sorting out the Others she must instead confront the evil in Valyria.

There are two other points to make in relation to this. Everything we've discussed on Heresy of late has revolved around the Wall and what lies beyond. We may not be in complete agreement on who built the Wall and when, who the Others are and what the connection might be to the Singers, although we do seem to be surprisingly in accord as to the Crows and that there is something far more important under Winterfell than a postcard from Rhaegar Targaryen. The point, however, is that its all related.

Azor Ahai isn't. Its a story and prophecy from out east, never told by Old Nan, and its taken up as the Prince that was Promised by the Family Targaryen who then very promptly get out of Dodge before it blows

I'm dismissive of all the gods in the story. No one seems to believe that the Seven are going to take an active role in the final confrontations in the novels, so why would the Red God, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, or any of the other permutations take a role. Characters are acting on belief systems, not being directed by those god heads.

If nothing else, Dany's trail through Essos is a story of politics, and her learning curve. The story spends to much time developing political angles, to much time with Tyrion and KL, to much time with Jon as a developing leader on the Wall.

When trying to shoehorn the conclusion of the tale into just the magical, mythical lines of the story, we end up ignoring probably 80% of the writing and character development.

To imagine this story ends in some mythical battle between Ice and Fire with magical swords, magical words, magic dragons, magic wolves, primal archetypes, is just missing the point.

This, to me, is a real tension in the story -- the reliance on magic to tie things up, versus the politics.

BC's idea that there's an 'evil time' as opposed to a long 'darkness' is a nice way of putting it (with the caveat that we don't phrase it as "evil" in the way that Mel might, but in terms of 'foul deeds'). But there we're getting into the realm of philosophy :) We could discuss the moralites of Westeros if we wish, but don't have to. I see the interventions happening at the level of individual characters, too, not at the level of gods reaching down.

Much of this story echoes how atonement for past wrongs heals the human heart; both for the ruler and the small folk (hate that phase). Another hint is how Jaimie and Brienne’s whole arcs are about atonement. If we suppose Sandor survived so will his be, because the whole purpose and speech of the Elder Brother is about just that: atonement and redemption.

Anyway moving on to my point, Dany is definitely atoning for her ancestors’ wrongs by smashing the slave trade. As the last of a ruling line of Valaryans, a ruthlessly enslaving peolpe, she is the only one who can accomplish this.. Yes she is ruthless and Tywinesque at times but her heart is pure: She wants to end the abomination that is using human flesh as a commodity which is bought and sold without self-approval. She is in fact healing or rectifying the wrongs done by her people.

The Starks on the other hand are different. As a First Man he needed, rectify the harm done by (fill in the blank) by building the Wall and subjugating all those men and races behind it, because in a way they have condemned those peoples to a terrible way of life. The Singers are sequestered; the Giants are abhorred (cf Wun Wun;) their mammoths are nearly gone and the Free folk themselves are only free in so far as they remain in the Lands beyond the Wall, where there is little to sustain them. Great massacres have occurred whenever they have tried to better their lot.

Job by allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall has in effect healed minenia of wrongs. That he is feeding them too at the detriment of the Night’s Watch is a form of atonement. Just like Dany, he has taken into his fold the enemy/oppressed and in both cases that means increased political power. They are both just and worthy rulers of any kingdom.

This is an interesting reading. It's complicated, though; Dany keeps finding that she has to make deals she'd rather not make in order to abolish slavery in Mereen. Not to mention she is providing no training for her dragons, who apparently have developed some rather bad habits (snacking on children). Then there's her encounter with MMD and Eroeh, both of which demonstrate the problematic situation she finds herself in as "savior."

If we look at Jon's arc, we see similar things happening: he accepts Stannis' help, but that means giving Mel certain concessions concerning the old gods. He allows 'Mance' to be burned alive. For a price, he'll accept the Wildlings into the Watch and allow them to settle the gift. In both instances, we also have to take into account that GRRM has deliberately chosen a 'historical' backdrop of decline and decay, and that that is a pattern, not a static state of being, and that any redemption or progress takes place within that formulation as well, and also possibly won't remain static once achieved.

In terms of the political aspect, I have another question. It seems as though the Targs were able to hold the 7K for so long because they had dragons. What ruler, and what circumstances, will it take for the next character to put a kingdom together and hold it? And is there a connection to ice/fire?

*shrug* I didn't say it was proof. Just thought I'd add this bit of info, since people don't seem to be aware of it: Tormund thinks they're still around during the day, somehow.

Good point, maybe the operative idea is that Tormund feels like something's always watching. Which makes me think of the ravens, though at this point I don't necessarily see both the COTF and the Icy Folk as representative of ice.

I agree with you on this. I think the description of the "coldness" that seemed to be related with the Stone men in the Sorrows sounded like exactly what would happen if the "cold" typically associated with the White Walkers and/or Wights were to invade one of the warmer regions in Essos.

I'm with you two on this one, I think it's a curious disease, and I'm more than inclined to pay attention to Val's misgivings.

[nanother]

Yes, indeed.

There are many other problems with the theory. The R+L=J camp has persuaded itself that they're all taken care of, but really, they aren't. Not even close. You have to multiply one improbable idea by several others -- they must all be true, however unlikely that might seem -- to accept the theory.

I could write out a list, but once anybody gets into this subject it tends to derail a thread. Any thread.

However, I will say the best evidence that Jon is a legit Targaryen king is the presence of the Kingsguard at the ToJ. Recently I read analysis of this in the R+L=J thread and realized there is a serious problem that they've not accounted for yet.

I can get into this on request, but again, this is the sort of area that tends to be very divisive and to completely dominate discussion once it comes up.

Maybe there should be a RLJ special edition to Heresies? I don't care much for the subject myself, but some of you guys seem to be holding a grudge against the 'Jon Targaryen, heir to the IT' crowd - you need to get it out of your system :p

[Eira Seren]

Maybe there should be a RLJ special edition to Heresies? I don't care much for the subject myself, but some of you guys seem to be holding a grudge against the 'Jon Targaryen, heir to the IT' crowd - you need to get it out of your system :P

I second this; it'd be nice to be able to have the conversation without derailing and in a more open conversation. We could even do a separate thread if our fellow heretics don't want to join in.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

I too would be interested in a discussion of this subject that didn't degenerate into drivel.

[JNR]

Should we wait for the proposed R+L=J edition? I can't be the only guy who has problems with the theory -- problems that go far beyond just the business of the Kingsguard at the ToJ.

[wolfmaid7]

Should we wait for the proposed R+L=J edition? I can't be the only guy who has problems with the theory -- problems that go far beyond just the business of the Kingsguard at the ToJ.

Sounds good to me,The heretics look at R+L=J and what that means uf anything.

[Eira Seren]

To what degree is there consensus that the Starks are the inheritors of ice, through the Kings of Winter or otherwise?

[FainRivers]

I just noticed something in feast I hadn't before. At Maester Aemon's funeral, Sam says Aemon has seen 12 lord commanders come and go. Which would make Jon the 13th lord commander Aemon served. The NK was the thirteenth, was he not? In general that number seems to be significant.

[King Benjen II]

BC, I think it would be the wrong approach to dismiss Dany, Targaryens and dragons when discussing Ice and Fire. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Arya and Dany comment. It is too easy to say they were just using those names as examples. IMO this is way to flimsy to build upon. I think the best approach would include each piece of the story.

[King Benjen II]

This is probably my greatest deviation from the Heresy thread. I think there is too much foreshadowing that Dany and Jon will encounter each other in Westeros (whether as humans or dragons, I'm not sure). And I think I'm falling a bit into Bran Vras' theory that Lyanna's contribution to Jon isn't so much as a daughter of Winterfell but as a daughter to her mother, and on down the line. There is an underlying theme throughout the books of a maternal line of succession as opposed to the traditional paternal line. We see it in Dorne, we see it in Aegon (presuming he is a Blackfyre on the maternal line), we even see it in a whorehouse in Braavos. We are fairly familiar with Jon's paternal line of inheritence but less so on his maternal line. I think therein lies the mystery.

Can you provide quotes that foreshadow Jon and Dany meeting? Do you feel they require fulfillment or are they adequate as misdirections? I currently haven't imagined a heretical scenario where they will. But if they do I don't think we yet have the evidence. I don't know if they'd meet as dragons. Maybe Jon in Ghost and Dany in Drogon.

I am way behind on my Bran Vras. I have to remedy that. Love his work.

[redriver]

Sounds good to me,The heretics look at R+L=J and what that means uf anything.

I second this.

[Black Crow]

BC, I think it would be the wrong approach to dismiss Dany, Targaryens and dragons when discussing Ice and Fire. I strongly disagree with your interpretation of the Arya and Dany comment. It is too easy to say they were just using those names as examples. IMO this is way to flimsy to build upon. I think the best approach would include each piece of the story.

I'm not dismissing Dany and her dragons at all, but rather the happy assumption that they will either win or at least provide the firepower for the great victory over the Others. My argument is that while Jon the son of Winterfell must deal with the Ice - and not necessarily in battle. Danaerys must deal with the Fire by going into Valyria.

[Black Crow]

Sounds good to me,The heretics look at R+L=J and what that means uf anything.

Given the apparent degree of concensus among we miserable heretics that Jon is not going to turn into Rhaegar Targraryen the Prince that was Promised, do we need a discrete thread on the subject? We still have 10 pages to go on this one and unlike the white walkers it wouldn't be straying off topic. Indeed the OP was set up to allow for discussion on this right here and now on this very thread.