Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I always took melt away to mean the WW hid from the daylight not a literal melting. At the cave of Skulls entry, the wights are hiding under the snow til the sun set, then popped out and attacked.

ETA Ser Puddles melted away after Godslayer stuck him, but this I understood as a fatal melting.

Yeah thats how I took it too. Like run to the woods for cover. Although, if caught in the sun, I wonder if it would be fatal. The wights hiding under the snow is funny. Bran says the snow had stopped three days previous and the ground was undisturbed. So it seems like it is a trap. Also CH knows there is 'something'(his word) there. And, he warns Bran that white walkers leave no footprints or disturb the snow. So he was expecting either wights or WWs, I believe.

[Eira Seren]

Yeah thats how I took it too. Like run to the woods for cover. Although, if caught in the sun, I wonder if it would be fatal. The wights hiding under the snow is funny. Bran says the snow had stopped three days previous and the ground was undisturbed. So it seems like it is a trap. Also CH knows there is 'something'(his word) there. And, he warns Bran that white walkers leave no footprints or disturb the snow. So he was expecting either wights or WWs, I believe.

There's a detail I missed! Surely wights would leave footprints?. It must have been Icy Folk he was expecting.

[WierWood Wolf]

Ah... Interesting point.

Have people expressed opinion on whether sunlight is supressive, or simply repulsive to the Others, and by extension, the efficacy of their magic? Wights, being lazy and wighty, appear to do just dandy with laying about wherever. I assumed the wights near the CotF cave were buried under snowdrift simply because of lack of passersby to molest, or more likely, they wight at night, and were gradually covered in falling snow during the day.

I'm sure GRRM has some magical explanation as to how the Others shelter during the daylight hours. I'm a little hardpressed to imagine them bunkering down in shallow holes, snowdrift, or disemboweled tauntauns/giants.

IIRC WW also have a mist that is related to their presence. Perhaps they melt into a mist and head away from the light?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'd like to know what the original ice and fire confrontation was, if there was one. The Long Night? I think that Hardhome is a clue, and that your guess about it is a pretty good one.

Also, next time I do a re-read, I'm going to watch out for icy mentions on Essos; if fire is in the North, surely ice is an element in the South?

You know, the AAR prophecy is said to been written 5000 years ago. But we are not told the time difference between the reborn prophecy and the original Azor Ahai. I have some thoughts about that, but it is conjecture. In short did the Original Azor live in the time of the Long Night or well before then.

[WierWood Wolf]

There's a detail I missed! Surely wights would leave footprints?. It must have been Icy Folk he was expecting.

I believe they move uncannily atop the snow as is noticed by Bran or his companions. IIRC. However I won't bet on that until a reread.:blink:

[A Bastard Snow]

Seeing as they can make weapons out of pure ice its not hard to imagine they can manipulate ice/snow to hide.Its not like there is any shortage of it past the wall.Also on a related note seeing as it says they cant pass through the wall what about around the wall?Is there any mention of the effects of the wall extending past its actual physical boundries?

[Eira Seren]

You know, the AAR prophecy is said to been written 5000 years ago. But we are not told the time difference between the reborn prophecy and the original Azor Ahai. I have some thoughts about that, but it is conjecture. In short did the Original Azor live in the time of the Long Night or well before then.

Someone else might be able to answer this one, I always thought AA lived before the Long Night, but now I wonder.

I believe they move uncannily atop the snow as is noticed by Bran or his companions. IIRC. However I won't bet on that until a reread. :blink:

Terrific, Legolas wights. :eek: Kidding! Does the mist make them able to glide over the snow?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I thought Azor lived before the Long Night. If his story is connected to fire, and before the LN, this could be a stagger of Ice and Fire.

Azor Ahai (Fire), then Long Night (Ice), then Valyria (Fire), then present day - Ice and Fire at the same time. Uh-oh! But this ideal comes from conjecture on AA.

[Toccs]

There's no way to know. The Azor Ahai story/prophecy in Asshai is around 5000 years old but that doesn't necessarily equate to when Azor Ahai lived if he indeed did and the date of the Long Night is far from certain.

I've always seen Azor Ahai the original as a religious dogmatic construct. The prophecy is essentially that "a great hero will come in a time of great crisis", the story of the ancient past hero and the title of "Reborn" is just a way of claiming the great hero as yours. The Prince that was Promised is basically the same prophecy without the dogma.

[WierWood Wolf]

Someone else might be able to answer this one, I always thought AA lived before the Long Night, but now I wonder.

Terrific, Legolas wights. :eek: Kidding! Does the mist make them able to glide over the snow?

Not the mist, Legolas' snowboard.B)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah thats how I took it too. Like run to the woods for cover. Although, if caught in the sun, I wonder if it would be fatal. The wights hiding under the snow is funny. Bran says the snow had stopped three days previous and the ground was undisturbed. So it seems like it is a trap. Also CH knows there is 'something'(his word) there. And, he warns Bran that white walkers leave no footprints or disturb the snow. So he was expecting either wights or WWs, I believe.

I looked back to that Bran chapter. After Coldhands speaks of the white walkers, his next words are (after unrelated talk between Meera and Bran) "The light is fading. If they're not here now, they will be soon. Come."

So, I think CH was expecting white walkers to be popping in. Anyway, I dont want to push this to much to the ww/ice side.

There is a something else I noticed there that is not relevant to this thread. I will bring it up later.

[Black Crow]

IIRC WW also have a mist that is related to their presence. Perhaps they melt into a mist and head away from the light?

That, I think is a distinct possibility which would explain the treading lightly on the snow.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating."

As to sunlight its once again worth recalling how the Ice Dragon started melting...

[Black Crow]

There's no way to know. The Azor Ahai story/prophecy in Asshai is around 5000 years old but that doesn't necessarily equate to when Azor Ahai lived if he indeed did and the date of the Long Night is far from certain.

I've always seen Azor Ahai the original as a religious dogmatic construct. The prophecy is essentially that "a great hero will come in a time of great crisis", the story of the ancient past hero and the title of "Reborn" is just a way of claiming the great hero as yours. The Prince that was Promised is basically the same prophecy without the dogma.

I agree, and I also once again question this business of "a time of great darkness".

I think that the immediate association with the Long Night is far too hasty. We really don't get anything about the Long Night affecting Essos and with Winter coming to Westeros Jon is confident of keeping the Watch supplied from Essos - just so long as he can pay for those supplies. GRRM has confirmed there is a magical reason for the dodgy seasons and so the Long Night may be a euphimism for an exceptionally long Winter in Westeros alone.

The Azor Ahai propecy is sufficiently well known in Essos for Sallhador San to explain to Davos some of the bits left out by Melisandre, so I'm still very much inclined to read it as an Essosi thing rather than a retelling of the Last Hero. There's no hint when Westerosi characters are told the story or of the story that it is an eastern version of their own Last Hero.

Therefore I still argue that this is a deliberate trap; that the all too easy assumption that the "time of great darkness" was the Long Night is there to screen the fact that the darkness spoken of is metaphorical and that it was a time of great evil rather than when somebody switched the lights out. Hence the suggestion that Dany is indeed Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised, having ticked all the right boxes fair and square, but the kicker is that instead of sorting out the Others she must instead confront the evil in Valyria.

There are two other points to make in relation to this. Everything we've discussed on Heresy of late has revolved around the Wall and what lies beyond. We may not be in complete agreement on who built the Wall and when, who the Others are and what the connection might be to the Singers, although we do seem to be surprisingly in accord as to the Crows and that there is something far more important under Winterfell than a postcard from Rhaegar Targaryen. The point, however, is that its all related.

Azor Ahai isn't. Its a story and prophecy from out east, never told by Old Nan, and its taken up as the Prince that was Promised by the Family Targaryen who then very promptly get out of Dodge before it blows

[Toccs]

Therefore I still argue that this is a deliberate trap; that the all too easy assumption that the "time of great darkness" was the Long Night is there to screen the fact that the darkness spoken of is metaphorical and that it was a time of great evil rather than when somebody switched the lights out. Hence the suggestion that Dany is indeed Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised, having ticked all the right boxes fair and square, but the kicker is that instead of sorting out the Others she must instead confront the evil in Valyria.

A trap further enforced by the terms "the Others" and "the Great Other" which due to the word other seem intimately connected but which on further inspection don't seem to be at all.

[Black Crow]

A trap further enforced by the terms "the Others" and "the Great Other" which due to the word other seem intimately connected but which on further inspection don't seem to be at all.

Further reinforced I would suggest by the way that the blue-eyed lot are also known as the white walkers. The latter term isn't just confined to those on or beyond the Wall, because Sam recalls how as a child he used to squeak with terror at tales of the "white walkers of the woods". Also referring to the white walkers as the Others may therefore be a deliberate means of setting up a connection to the Great Other which doesn't actually exist. And of course in considering an alternative destiny for Dany we also have to note that not only did Mel herself not make that connection at first, but Master Benero, in identifying Dany as Azor Ahai sees her task as the destruction of the Old Blood of Valyria.

[King of Winters]

A trap further enforced by the terms "the Others" and "the Great Other" which due to the word other seem intimately connected but which on further inspection don't seem to be at all.

I've never thought the Great Other and the WW are connected in any way but they have "Other" as their name, or one of them.

It's gets kind of annoying when I see threads where people think that the Great Other is sitting in the Lands of Always Winter, in the Heart of Winter, and sending his evil servants to destroy everything and he will bring the Long Night 2.0 and R'hllor's champion will have to duel and defeat him.

[Dagda]

I'd like to know what the original ice and fire confrontation was, if there was one. The Long Night? I think that Hardhome is a clue, and that your guess about it is a pretty good one.

Also, next time I do a re-read, I'm going to watch out for icy mentions on Essos; if fire is in the North, surely ice is an element in the South?

I've always had suspicions about the Stonemen, stone golems, and a literary link to the wrights.

[Dagda]

I'm dismissive of all the gods in the story. No one seems to believe that the Seven are going to take an active role in the final confrontations in the novels, so why would the Red God, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, or any of the other permutations take a role. Characters are acting on belief systems, not being directed by those god heads.

If nothing else, Dany's trail through Essos is a story of politics, and her learning curve. The story spends to much time developing political angles, to much time with Tyrion and KL, to much time with Jon as a developing leader on the Wall.

When trying to shoehorn the conclusion of the tale into just the magical, mythical lines of the story, we end up ignoring probably 80% of the writing and character development.

To imagine this story ends in some mythical battle between Ice and Fire with magical swords, magical words, magic dragons, magic wolves, primal archetypes, is just missing the point.

[Dagda]

Wow ... Just reading George's blog and he makes a comment about the Flashman series of books. Ice and Fire now makes allot more sense that it did being related to just fantasy books, and " the unreliable narrator" takes on a whole clearer meaning. Now I know where Tyrion comes from! :)

Going to have to watch the original "Four Feathers" again just to see the inside joke of Flashman sitting at the head of the table for the storytelling. I think I like George allot more now.

[Black Crow]

Indeed so far as story development goes there really isn't much practical difference between a great battle between Ice and Fire on the Trident and the red ball of fire in the sky smashing down and killing everything - dead.