Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

My vision for the end is trapping the Others and the Wights within the walls of King's Landing and burning it to the ground with Wildfire.

Destroying King's Landing and the Iron Throne along with it.

There is a ton of it still buried beneath KL, MKAs plan B. But are Others affected by fire?

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

I keep thinking about the geothermal activity below Winterfell and and the apparent volcanic activity and its devastation at Hardhome and am wondering if those are evidence of a northern fire element that must be kept in balance? Is it a Stark in Winterfell that keeps that fire element in check and prevents a Valyria-like devastation from occurring on Westeros?

I'm not sure that this is relevant but, IIRC, in AGoT Tyrion is reading ancient Valyrian scrolls in the sept of WF. They were supposed to be remarkably preserved (maybe the cold). Then he borrows books for his trip north to The Wall. about dragons. Did some ancient septon know about walk was lurking beneath and seek out books about the doom?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

There is a ton of it still buried beneath KL, MKAs plan B. But are Others affected by fire?

Arent we told they melt in the sunlight?

[Blazfemur]

Changing subjects for a second...

I find it ironic that a comet can represent both Ice and Fire, as comets are balls of Ice, but they appear to be fiery balls of light and fire.

Is there any possibility that the Doom was caused by a comet crashing into Valyria?

when characters describe the doom, they always say, "...when the doom came," implying arrival, which could mean somethign striking the earth. good observation.

[Blazfemur]

there was always soemthing in the back of my mind that made me think lightbringer wasn't meant to be a sword, but rather either the night's watch itself, or perhaps daenerys' dragons, and this could even be possible: the red comet itself, could be lightbringer.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

I like the idea but . . .

In a WoW Release date interview, GRRM said:

. . . a good shot. And you know, if I really get pressed, I've already established that red comet. I can just have it hit Westeros and wipe out all life."

Would he have even hinted at something like this if it were actually true?

[Grey Words]

I can see the logic of a fiery ice comet causing the doom, but there is already so much evidence of volcanic and geothermal activity coming up from within the earth.

Regarding the Doom,since Hardhome was becoming a solid human settlement north of the Wall, what if the CotF attempted some sort of "hammer of fire" to eradicate the humans in their realm?

[Frey family reunion]

there was always soemthing in the back of my mind that made me think lightbringer wasn't meant to be a sword, but rather either the night's watch itself, or perhaps daenerys' dragons, and this could even be possible: the red comet itself, could be lightbringer.

I've long been of the belief that all of the evidence points to Jon as being the fulfillment of lightbringer.

I think his story arc, if you squint hard enough, is following the arc of the famed Norse sword, Gram (I think Bran to a more literal sense does as well btw).

Gram was forged by Wayland the Smith, and then it was stuck by Odin in the tree Barnstokkr. None of the other lords present at the feast hall were able to pull the sword out of the tree except Sigmund. Sigmund breaks the sword into two against the spear of a black cloaked soldier (Odin in disguise). Sigmund gives the broken sword to his wife and tells her to keep it until it can be reforged and given to their unborn child. When the sword is reforged it becomes more powerful than ever and can split an anvil in two.

Likewise, Jon is taught to be a leader by another smith, Donal Noye. Playing the part of Odin is Lord Commander Mormont who makes Jon promise him that he will take no part in the wars of the other lords. Thus Jon becomes trapped in the Wall where he can not be used by the other lords. Until of course Stannis comes to the Wall and Jon gradually embroils the NightsWatch into Stannis' cause. Ultimately Jon is ready to march on Winterfell. Thus Stannis is Sigurd the lord who finally frees Jon/Gram from the Wall/tree. Instead of Gram breaking against the spear of the black cloaked soldier, Jon is stabbed to death by his black cloaked brothers who believe Jon has betrayed the Watch.

Jon's last two thoughts before he collapses is 1) Ghost and 2)Stick them with the pointy end.

Then much like the Stark's valyrian sword, Ice is reforged into two separate swords, I believe Jon will encompass two beings in the next book.

I think Jon warged into Ghost as he collapsed. Ghost/Jon is the end of the sword with the hilt. If you recall Jon's sword Longclaw's hilt is the white wolf. Likewise we've seen imagery associating Ghost with a sword. Ghost/Jon is the hilt or consciousness or animus if you will of the sword.

In the meantime we learn from the Horned Lord that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. Likewise Jon's last thought, stick them with the pointy will live on as his last emotion (much like Cat's last emotions upon her death).

Jon's body will be resurrected by Melisandre in the flames (perhaps with a sacrifice of King's blood or two). UnJon or Jon Stoneheart will be the blade of the sword (or the pointy end if you will).

My guess is this will end badly for many of Jon's brothers in the Night's Watch.

Ultimately, I think Jon/Ghost ends up in a dragon (my guess for a number of reasons is Viserion). I also think that Jon Stoneheart(Like Beric to Lady Cat) will also be responsible for resurrecting through the cost of his life, his Nightswatch brothers, where Jon fulfills his role as the Corn King.

Anyway that's my crackpot.

[Melifeather]

So they lie dead for a significant amount of time, and if not entombed by some point they rise from the dead?

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, it's just not one I agree with. There is something there, I'm just not sure what it is.

The clues are the various usages of iron. We've discussed the traditionally recognized warding properties of iron a couple threads ago. I presented the historical precedence of using iron fencing around cemeteries and prisons to keep spirits from escaping and pointed out the iron swords on Stark crypts and the use of iron on the King in the North crown which is a bronze circlet surrounded with iron swords. How far back in Westerosi history have the Stark dead been warded with iron? If Coldhands proves to be a Stark, I am concluding that he's an example of why these crypts are warded.

[Melifeather]

when characters describe the doom, they always say, "...when the doom came," implying arrival, which could mean somethign striking the earth. good observation.

I've always understood the Doom to be volcanic by nature.

[JNR]

Admittedly I'm new to Heresy, but I definitely think Jon's parentage on BOTH sides is important. One will help him fulfill his destiny in the North, and the other with get those in the South to acknowledge him.

Hmmm... this is actually quite true.

Arent we told they melt in the sunlight?

Not quite. However, we're told that

1. They come with the darkness, or else they bring the darkness

2. They come with the cold, or else they bring the cold

3. "Fire dismays them." -- Godslayer

4. "They don't like fire, and no mistake." -- Tormund

5. They first came in the Long Night -- the world's longest winter

6. They've come again in what looks very much like a second Long Night

7. They melt when stabbed with dragonglass

It's certainly a pattern as far as I'm concerned.

[char custom]

Hmmm... this is actually quite true.

Not quite. However, we're told that

1. They come with the darkness, or else they bring the darkness

2. They come with the cold, or else they bring the cold

3. "Fire dismays them." -- Sam

4. "They don't like fire, and no mistake." -- Tormund

5. They first came in the Long Night -- the world's longest winter

6. They've come again in what looks very much like a second Long Night

7. They melt when stabbed with dragonglass

It's certainly a pattern as far as I'm concerned.

Agree. Text doesn't explicitly say Others do a vampire melt in sunlight. Readers are led to believe Others have an aversion to sunlight... whether it's fatal or not, it's up in the air for now. Evidence: characters have only seen Others after nightfall, thus far(Waymar Royce, Fist of the First Men, iirc the HBO series depicts Jon witnessnesses an Other doing a bit of midnight babynapping, please correct me).

Could we infer that intense cloud cover/storming at Hardhome is a major contributor to the NW failure at Hardhome? (i.e. dark enough for Others to jaunt about in the open all day long)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Agree. Text doesn't explicitly say Others do a vampire melt in sunlight. Readers are led to believe Others have an aversion to sunlight... whether it's fatal or not, it's up in the air for now. Evidence: characters have only seen Others after nightfall, thus far(Waymar Royce, Fist of the First Men, iirc the HBO series depicts Jon witnessnesses an Other doing a bit of midnight babynapping, please correct me).

Could we infer that intense cloud cover/storming at Hardhome is a major contributor to the NW failure at Hardhome? (i.e. dark enough for Others to jaunt about in the open all day long)

I took the phrase as melt away in the woods or some such. Though it could be more literal. 'Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear.' The statement is ambiguous. It seems contridictory to 'they only come out at night. Sunblocked, yes but still daytime.

[Yield.]

I can see the logic of a fiery ice comet causing the doom, but there is already so much evidence of volcanic and geothermal activity coming up from within the earth.

Regarding the Doom,since Hardhome was becoming a solid human settlement north of the Wall, what if the CotF attempted some sort of "hammer of fire" to eradicate the humans in their realm?

Or the powers of fire decided that a human city that near the source of Ice's HQ or even in Ice's domain was too dangerous. Hardhome could have grown to be a formidable power given it's natural advantages and it's easy access to the rest of the world.

It almost seems like the fire below Winterfell than makes 'the difference between life and death come winter' is another was that Fire is keeping it's finger on th strongest players in the north -- the Kings of Winter.

[Yield.]

The clues are the various usages of iron. We've discussed the traditionally recognized warding properties of iron a couple threads ago. I presented the historical precedence of using iron fencing around cemeteries and prisons to keep spirits from escaping and pointed out the iron swords on Stark crypts and the use of iron on the King in the North crown which is a bronze circlet surrounded with iron swords. How far back in Westerosi history have the Stark dead been warded with iron? If Coldhands proves to be a Stark, I am concluding that he's an example of why these crypts are warded.

While I don't agree that dead Starks rise as wight type beings (if they do at all it would be similar to Beric and Cat I think.) I do agree the warding has significance. On the subject of the rest of the family, since only the heads of the line get iron swords, who's to say the other Starks aren't buried with iron daggers/knives. It is a common custom to inter the dead with things from their lives and with gifts (cf Hoster Tully being sent off in full accoutrements.) This too could act as a ward.

[WierWood Wolf]

I took the phrase as melt away in the woods or some such. Though it could be more literal. 'Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear.' The statement is ambiguous. It seems contridictory to 'they only come out at night. Sunblocked, yes but still daytime.

I always took melt away to mean the WW hid from the daylight not a literal melting. At the cave of Skulls entry, the wights are hiding under the snow til the sun set, then popped out and attacked.

ETA Ser Puddles melted away after Godslayer stuck him, but this I understood as a fatal melting.

[A Bastard Snow]

The show is taking a completely different route then the books.And its highly doubtful if George even knows how it will end.He only told the shows creators how he thinks it will end incase he dies before he finishes the books.Nothing is set in stone and seeing as the show doesn't really follow the books but uses them more as a template it hardly matters if the books end is different then the show.Fact is the end wont be happy for a lot of people (you cant make everyone happy) but that's why they invented fanfictions I am positive when the series ends there will be dozens of people re-writing it how they felt it should have ended and that's the beauty of a story..each person can make it there own

[char custom]

I took the phrase as melt away in the woods or sld be more literal. 'Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear.' The statement is ambiguous. It seems contridictory to 'they only come out at night. Sunblocked, yes but still daytime.

Ah... Interesting point.

Have people expressed opinion on whether sunlight is supressive, or simply repulsive to the Others, and by extension, the efficacy of their magic? Wights, being lazy and wighty, appear to do just dandy with laying about wherever. I assumed the wights near the CotF cave were buried under snowdrift simply because of lack of passersby to molest, or more likely, they wight at night, and were gradually covered in falling snow during the day.

I'm sure GRRM has some magical explanation as to how the Others shelter during the daylight hours. I'm a little hardpressed to imagine them bunkering down in shallow holes, snowdrift, or disemboweled tauntauns/giants.

[Eira Seren]

Or the powers of fire decided that a human city that near the source of Ice's HQ or even in Ice's domain was too dangerous. Hardhome could have grown to be a formidable power given it's natural advantages and it's easy access to the rest of the world.

It almost seems like the fire below Winterfell than makes 'the difference between life and death come winter' is another was that Fire is keeping it's finger on th strongest players in the north -- the Kings of Winter.

I'd like to know what the original ice and fire confrontation was, if there was one. The Long Night? I think that Hardhome is a clue, and that your guess about it is a pretty good one.

Also, next time I do a re-read, I'm going to watch out for icy mentions on Essos; if fire is in the North, surely ice is an element in the South?

[Eira Seren]

Ah... Interesting point.

Have people expressed opinion on whether sunlight is supressive, or simply repulsive to the Others, and by extension, the efficacy of their magic? Wights, being lazy and wighty, appear to do just dandy with laying about wherever. I assumed the wights near the CotF cave were buried under snowdrift simply because of lack of passersby to molest, or more likely, they wight at night, and were gradually covered in falling snow during the day.

We did a thread about the WW, Heresy 94 and further discussion in 98/99. We discussed that it seems they come out when it is dark, based on the scenes (at least 2 I recall) with Bran et al approaching the COTF cave, and Royce's encounter with the Icy Folk in the Prologue to AGOT.