Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[Frey family reunion]

I think, taking Benioff and Weiss at their word, not knowing Dany's fate is incredibly revealing. This isn't a question of the show deviating from the story but about the ending of the story as GRRM envisages it. Benioff and Weiss apparently know what that vision is and if they didn't know what happens to Dany then it follows that she isn't part of that ending. Proceeding on that basis we can therefore rule out the following.

1. Jon and Dany will meet and marry. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

2. Dany will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

3. Jon will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, Benioff and Weiss would have to know how Jon comes to be on one of her dragons

4. Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros. Nope, Dany's arc thus far is all about how she is the last Targaryen and wants to reclaim the Iron Throne. For Jon to assume that role Benioff and Weiss would have to know why Dany is out of the picture.

To be honest, I think you're reading way too much into this little snippet that we got behidn the curtain of the HBO production. It was my understanding that when the producers started the show (and I believe at least through the first season) they did not know how the series was going to end. I think Martin was a little disatisfied with some of the plot elements that they left out of the first season and had a meeting with them to give them an idea as to how the series would turn out.

Now does this necessarily mean that Dany (or Jon for that matter) will be around for the end of the show? Who knows? I personally think both may be around but not in the forms that we are accustomed to seeing them.

But I think to ignore some of the literary foreshadowing (esp on Dany's end) that hints at some type of encounter between the two is a mistake.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Not to intrude, if you think about it, GRRM is setting up a perfect "outsider looking in" position in Bran. If inevitably the "balance" ends with both sides being destroyed, who's left to tell the tale to the reader?

A outsider looking in, Bran can see through all sorts of vessels, safely in bloodravens warded cave. Since day one GRRM has been setting up bran's character as a means to look into the devastation -- should some key pov's be destroyed (which they might).

The final chapter/epilogue in a dream of spring, could simply be told through the eyes of a raven or crow -- warged by bran, amidst the corpses of jon, dany, tyrion.

eta: "ALL men, must die."

Or, 'Snow? Snow? Say, got any corn?' The End

Bran might be the 'last man standing' as you say. I do not think he will stay inside the cave until the end, though. How he fits in with all the goings on is tough to see.

He might be the Corn King after all.

[Blazfemur]

Or, 'Snow? Snow? Say, got any corn?' The End

Bran might be the 'last man standing' as you say. I do not think he will stay inside the cave until the end, though. How he fits in with all the goings on is tough to see.

He might be the Corn King after all.

he seems the least corrupted despite everything that has, and will happen. he has the least amount of aggression in him, and even if he were to warg something else, i cant see him breaking bad, not even for a moment. he's too innocent, and i cant believe he'll take up arms, as one animal or another.

i can see him revealing plotlines, storylines and histories though. i can see him surveying damage, when others cannot.

eta: but his personality, and his nobility, his innocence, i cant see him lifting a finger to strike anyone.

[Frey family reunion]

he seems the least corrupted despite everything that has, and will happen. he has the least amount of aggression in him, and even if he were to warg something else, i cant see him breaking bad, not even for a moment. he's too innocent, and i cant believe he'll take up arms, as one animal or another.

i can see him revealing plotlines, storylines and histories though. i can see him surveying damage, when others cannot.

Is he really? He's eaten human flesh while sharing the skin of Summer, and he's forcibly taken control of Hodor's body. What's the saying, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?

[Blazfemur]

it may be out there, but i see him permanently in the cave. i always thought bloodraven meant for him to get there, so bran the broken would take his place, and bloodraven himself would stand up and walk out.

my apologies, this seems like it's headed off topic from the original post, continue.

[horizon]

In the end it will be about balance between ice and fire.

Their are numerous paths for George to arrive at that point.

[Blazfemur]

Is he really? He's eaten human flesh while sharing the skin of Summer, and he's forcibly taken control of Hodor's body. What's the saying, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?

valid points, though he hasnt eaten human flesh as bran, he's done it with the tendencies of summer. he's known hodor for a long time, and hodor being simple mnded, bran justifies hodor being his legs.

by the way, on a side note, there is something to hodor. there are hints, from bran, when he takes hodor, that hodor retreats deep down to places not even bran can see. im interested to know, and see, what hodor's memories may be hiding.

[Blazfemur]

In the end it will be about balance between ice and fire.

Their are numerous paths for George to arrive at that point.

death, is the ultimate equalizer. the ultimate balance.

[Urrax2]

To be honest, I think you're reading way too much into this little snippet that we got behidn the curtain of the HBO production. ...

:agree:

[Blazfemur]

im just saying, when it's all said and done, there are so many angles, so many opposing sides, a lot of people assume it's going to boil down to ice and fire = two sides. while the central story revolves around the two sides, the world itself has too many sides to focus on only the two. just because jon=ice and dany=fire, that doesnt mean this story wont end in it all being a memorial for the times and accomplishments theyve endured.

there's no way in hell this story can end happily, with someone sitting the iron throne, with their subjects' kneeling before them claiming fealty. does one think the entire realm will find solace in one person, with all those different sides in place?

im not saying the entire world of westeros will be laid to waste, mind you, we might as well just crash the red comet and call it a day then. im just saying a dystopian world overrun with others/white walkers is a severe possibility, and bran being the seer surveying the damage and witnessing it all because a good portion of everyone he knew died in the struggle.

[wolfmaid7]

These questions are quite compelling and I hope I get a chance to do more later, since I'm about to go to work. Dany, imo, is having an extremely difficult time extricating herself from Essos; even if she wins Mereen, I'm not sure how that will help her (is she planning to rule the entire world?) Whereas Jon appears to be centrally located if he is going to play a major part in the North, and in confronting or otherwise dealing with ice.

As far as family secrets go, we've certainly strayed into Victorian novel territory; I know GRRM likes to wrap up loose ends, but don't necessarily see this as having the sort of neat ending many 19th c. novels have on offer. Though I do think that this family secret is going to prove extremely useful by giving us ways to look at what's at stake for Jon and where that can take him-- I'm reminded of Snowfyre's post in H101 and might go back and read that again.

Or perhaps you'll bring it back in this discussion?

I agree, it seems as though Fire is already fairly prevalent in Westeros without it being populated by dragons (even down to the degree to which ice and fire are two sides of the same magic-- there's that quote from Jojen you've brought up before, where he essentially says they are both part of the same thing, the land is one.)

Seeing it on screen so to speak,you get an overall sense that while Dany has a role to play,it is not in Wetseros at lease imo her presence will be very antagonistic,though she may believe her presence will be for the best.

As far as the Ice piece of things go, wouldn't it be logical to think that perhaps Bran is going to be the bigger part of the story? The first chapter after is a Bran POV. Maybe that just means the story will end with a Bran POV but he didn't necessarily affect the outcome?

I get the sense that Bran's role in this is is going to change,something bothers me about Bran and it has to do with what else but the views of a child.Leaf is certain that the trees will "teach Bran" so i hope that's true. But when Leaf spoke about how their time and the Direwolves were going to come to an end. Bran was sad and said that...men wouldn't go quietly,men would fight.( Paraphrasing) he has it within in him to break a few rules and how that will affect the outcome :dunno:

Not to intrude, if you think about it, GRRM is setting up a perfect "outsider looking in" position in Bran. If inevitably the "balance" ends with both sides being destroyed, who's left to tell the tale to the reader?

A outsider looking in, Bran can see through all sorts of vessels, safely in bloodravens warded cave. Since day one GRRM has been setting up bran's character as a means to look into the devastation -- should some key pov's be destroyed (which they might).

The final chapter/epilogue in a dream of spring, could simply be told through the eyes of a raven or crow -- warged by bran, amidst the corpses of jon, dany, tyrion.

eta: "ALL men, must die."

Gives me the chills.

I think, taking Benioff and Weiss at their word, not knowing Dany's fate is incredibly revealing. This isn't a question of the show deviating from the story but about the ending of the story as GRRM envisages it. Benioff and Weiss apparently know what that vision is and if they didn't know what happens to Dany then it follows that she isn't part of that ending. Proceeding on that basis we can therefore rule out the following.

1. Jon and Dany will meet and marry. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

2. Dany will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

3. Jon will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, Benioff and Weiss would have to know how Jon comes to be on one of her dragons

4. Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros. Nope, Dany's arc thus far is all about how she is the last Targaryen and wants to reclaim the Iron Throne. For Jon to assume that role Benioff and Weiss would have to know why Dany is out of the picture.

:agree:

[Frey family reunion]

I think GRRM's possible title for his last book is Dream of Spring (or something to that effect), which makes me think the book ends in a background of bleakness but at least with the posibility of better days ahead?

[Blazfemur]

when daenerys comes to westeros, and everything comes to an end, unless victarians fleet carries her meereen family with her, i see her returning to claim them as her people. no one in westeros is her people -- she fought for the meereenese and the free cities. those are her people, they know her, they praise her.

if you think about it, a true balance of ice and fire, would be two rulers, ice ruling on one end of the world, and fire ruling the other (daenerys ruling the free cities/slavers bay indefinitely).

this would mean "ice" would need king's landing -- but who? cersei's indefinite doom prophecy would tell you a younger, more beautiful queen comes along, but i dont think it's margaery.

you heard it here first, in the balance of ice and fire, there will be two rulers: daenerys returns (or never leaves) slaver's bay/free cities, as the silver queen. on the other end of the world, "ice" will rule king's landing, in the form of king petyr baelish and queen sansa stark (the younger, more beautiful queen). whether or not petyr is king, doesn't matter, because whomever he weds sansa to can serve as king, with himself ruling through that person.

[Urrax2]

...you heard it here first, in the balance of ice and fire, there will be two rulers: daenerys returns (or never leaves) slaver's bay/free cities, as the silver queen. on the other end of the world, "ice" will rule king's landing, in the form of king petyr baelish and queen sansa stark (the younger, more beautiful queen). whether or not petyr is king, doesn't matter, because whomever he weds sansa to can serve as king, with himself ruling through that person.

Not bad at all.

But try this: No more Iron Throne. No more one big king. Seven kingdoms again, as in the good old days.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

he seems the least corrupted despite everything that has, and will happen. he has the least amount of aggression in him, and even if he were to warg something else, i cant see him breaking bad, not even for a moment. he's too innocent, and i cant believe he'll take up arms, as one animal or another.

i can see him revealing plotlines, storylines and histories though. i can see him surveying damage, when others cannot.

eta: but his personality, and his nobility, his innocence, i cant see him lifting a finger to strike anyone.

Well, what I meant is whatever path he takes, in the end he may end up a 'sacrifice' for the good of the land. I think he will leave the cave, but thats just my opinion. He may end up like BR in the end.

Through death or becoming the tree he will end up helping Westeros. Like the Corn King, put in the ground to bring on life come spring. I was joking with that line, snow? got any corn? But also, pointing to Bran being inside the raven.

[Blazfemur]

Not bad at all.

But try this: No more Iron Throne. No more one big king. Seven kingdoms again, as in the good old days.

i love it. i love it so much i want it to end that way. to do this, king's landing has to be destroyed indefinitely, and be completely obliterated. dragons can do that, along with the hidden caches of wildfyre throughout the city.

eta: perhaps thats why George included that little tidbit of knowledge, no?

[Blazfemur]

also: for that to happen, i think the faith militant would need to be destroyed as well. if actual history has proven anything, you know fully well the church will try to claim itself the highest power eventually. just look at how quickly the sparrows are rising, and rh'llor

[Urrax2]

...perhaps thats why George included that little tidbit of knowledge, no?

Sorry, which tidbit?

[Black Crow]

Well, what I meant is whatever path he takes, in the end he may end up a 'sacrifice' for the good of the land. I think he will leave the cave, but thats just my opinion. He may end up like BR in the end.

Through death or becoming the tree he will end up helping Westeros. Like the Corn King, put in the ground to bring on life come spring. I was joking with that line, snow? got any corn? But also, pointing to Bran being inside the raven.

Its not far off how I see it, with Wsteros restored through Jon taking on the role of King of Winter and Bran the King of Summer. Each has their part to play and that's why when Bran wakes from his coma he names his direwolf Summer.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Heresy 22 had this bit I think will fit nicely here. Original poster is Lord Pendragon reposted by Black Crow and rereposted by me.

"In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (one of GRRM's influences) you learn at the very end that the protagonist, Simon, is the descendant of the realm's beloved Fisher King, and therefore the rightful king of the realm. But upon learning this he rails against it, basically saying that it's meaningless. Who his father was didn't help him do the things he did, it didn't impact his life, and it certainly didn't make him fit to rule a kingdom. It was in all ways beside the point of what had, and was, happening in the world and his life."