Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[Black Crow]

As to Danaerys, as I've said in the past I don't see her as the saviour of Westeros but rather look to those clues we've been given of Valyria; all that stuff we've been told of it and the people exploring or disappearing there, not least Tyrion's favourite uncle. And that's another reason why I'm inclined to see her story arc mirroring Jon's and that just as he must venture into the Land of Always Winter so she (and Tyrion) must at some point go into Valyria. Whether she does so en route to Westeros, it being handy sityated by the wayside, or reaches Westeros before realising where her true destiny lies remains to be seen.

Given GRRM's preference for avoiding the obvious I'm inclined to wonder whether Danaerys is indeed Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised, having fulfilled all the markers, but that her role is to confront the darkness within Valyria rather than ride out against the blue eyed lot from up north.

[Black Crow]

Heresy 22 had this bit I think will fit nicely here. Original poster is Lord Pendragon reposted by Black Crow and rereposted by me.

"In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn (one of GRRM's influences) you learn at the very end that the protagonist, Simon, is the descendant of the realm's beloved Fisher King, and therefore the rightful king of the realm. But upon learning this he rails against it, basically saying that it's meaningless. Who his father was didn't help him do the things he did, it didn't impact his life, and it certainly didn't make him fit to rule a kingdom. It was in all ways beside the point of what had, and was, happening in the world and his life."

Indeed, in another place it is argued that Jon will try to reject the role of Targaryen heir before recognising it is his duty...

I would argue the other way and that if it does become an issue, Jon will turn his back on temptation and reassert his identity as a son of Winterfell.

[Blazfemur]

Sorry, which tidbit?

Oh sorry I over read this. When it's revealed in a Lannister chapter that Aerys hid caches of wildfyre all over kings landing

[nanother]

sorry, wrong button...

[nanother]

I have a a question based on the OP and a thought; the idea that maybe the Targs and the Dragons were not a part of the story has me thinking about the name;ASOFAI. Would it have been the aforementioned without the Targs and their Dragons,or could as we theorized with the Reeds Oath have sufficiency of that ( Fire) with Man seeing as it was they who brought "Fire" in its destructive sense to the land?Which is pretty shattering to what proponents of Dany's involvement would scoff at seeing as that alludes to her having no relevancy in Westeros.

I agree that the 'Ice and Fire' dichotomy would work with just men. However, I think Black Crow is reading way too much into that dedication. I tried to see if Martin was ever asked about it, and while I couldn't (easily) find anything in SSM, I found this explanation:

"GRRM has talked about this in interviews. It was very early in the process of creating the series, and actually, the choice was "magic or no magic" -- he wasn't sure whether to make the series fantasy or more like a historical fiction. And his friend Phyllis Eisenstein, another fantasy author, urged him to put the dragons in. The "no magic" option would've meant "no Others" also, so it would obviously be a very different series." (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1zco1c/for_phyllisspoilers_all/)

So, once dragons are in the story, they're going to be an integral part of the Song of Ice and Fire IMO.

An interesting passage from Moqorro, on the Fourteen Flames of Valyria, as He and Tyrion look on the red sky above.

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

The warning of looking too deeply at the Valyrian fires reminds of this passage from Bran.

""North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, then he cried out, afraid..."

These passages are both about looking beyond and seeing the power of ice and fire. Moqorro says is not wise. Bran did it though, and it made him afraid, yet resolute.

And following from that...

Moqorro thinks the Valyrian fires are 'gods own wrath'. He is on his way to meet Dany, and in Volantis there is Benero and then other people who believe she is AAR and coming to free them from slavery. The Red Priest sees her as a part of their faith, but will Dany see it that way? If Dany somehow gets a glimpse into the 'Heart of Fire', what will she do? I can see her pushing away from R'hllor fanaticism. The bringing of never ending Summer and death bending its knee i, in a way opposite, yet similar and just as bad as never ending Winter. So Dany may need to stamp out the fire before it spreads too far.

Very interesting potential parallel between two characters that already have lots. I'm not sure what Dany might do, but this is something to keep in mind.

To be honest, I think you're reading way too much into this little snippet that we got behidn the curtain of the HBO production.

...

But I think to ignore some of the literary foreshadowing (esp on Dany's end) that hints at some type of encounter between the two is a mistake.

:agree:

I think GRRM's possible title for his last book is Dream of Spring (or something to that effect), which makes me think the book ends in a background of bleakness but at least with the posibility of better days ahead?

Yeah, that's kind of the picture it invokes in my head...

Not bad at all.

But try this: No more Iron Throne. No more one big king. Seven kingdoms again, as in the good old days.

Yes. I'd like to see a scene where one of Dany's dragons descends on the Iron Throne and melts it down.

[Melifeather]

Not to intrude, if you think about it, GRRM is setting up a perfect "outsider looking in" position in Bran. If inevitably the "balance" ends with both sides being destroyed, who's left to tell the tale to the reader?

A outsider looking in, Bran can see through all sorts of vessels, safely in bloodravens warded cave. Since day one GRRM has been setting up bran's character as a means to look into the devastation -- should some key pov's be destroyed (which they might).

The final chapter/epilogue in a dream of spring, could simply be told through the eyes of a raven or crow -- warged by bran, amidst the corpses of jon, dany, tyrion.

eta: "ALL men, must die."

There are two cover illustrations for a Dream of Spring, but the image is just the opposite. One cover is a necklace with a wolf pendant, the other is a tombstone, so I think that particular book will be about devastation with maybe an inkling of hope at the very end.

I think, taking Benioff and Weiss at their word, not knowing Dany's fate is incredibly revealing. This isn't a question of the show deviating from the story but about the ending of the story as GRRM envisages it. Benioff and Weiss apparently know what that vision is and if they didn't know what happens to Dany then it follows that she isn't part of that ending. Proceeding on that basis we can therefore rule out the following.

1. Jon and Dany will meet and marry. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

2. Dany will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

3. Jon will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, Benioff and Weiss would have to know how Jon comes to be on one of her dragons

4. Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros. Nope, Dany's arc thus far is all about how she is the last Targaryen and wants to reclaim the Iron Throne. For Jon to assume that role Benioff and Weiss would have to know why Dany is out of the picture.

What of Daenery's "dragon dream" (for lack of a better word) where she dreamt of melting Others with dragon fire at the Trident with the water causing the river to overflow? Unless that was a scene from the past? Is it possible that there used to be another ice wall at Moat Cailin and the Hammer all those years ago were dragons?

valid points, though he hasnt eaten human flesh as bran, he's done it with the tendencies of summer. he's known hodor for a long time, and hodor being simple mnded, bran justifies hodor being his legs.

by the way, on a side note, there is something to hodor. there are hints, from bran, when he takes hodor, that hodor retreats deep down to places not even bran can see. im interested to know, and see, what hodor's memories may be hiding.

Ah, but Bran does eat human flesh when Coldhands killed those rangers and brought it into the cave as "pig". Jojen and Meera say something about squirrel meat, which I believe is a euphemism for human flesh, and Bran thinks to himself that he doesn't care what kind of meat it is because it's tastes good. Jojen on the other hand, take tiny bites as if disgusted with the knowledge of what it is, but too hungry to not eat it.

im just saying, when it's all said and done, there are so many angles, so many opposing sides, a lot of people assume it's going to boil down to ice and fire = two sides. while the central story revolves around the two sides, the world itself has too many sides to focus on only the two. just because jon=ice and dany=fire, that doesnt mean this story wont end in it all being a memorial for the times and accomplishments theyve endured.

there's no way in hell this story can end happily, with someone sitting the iron throne, with their subjects' kneeling before them claiming fealty. does one think the entire realm will find solace in one person, with all those different sides in place?

im not saying the entire world of westeros will be laid to waste, mind you, we might as well just crash the red comet and call it a day then. im just saying a dystopian world overrun with others/white walkers is a severe possibility, and bran being the seer surveying the damage and witnessing it all because a good portion of everyone he knew died in the struggle.

New to Heresy? You'll be hard pressed to find any of the regulars here that think Jon will assume the Iron Throne, or even the possibility that him being Targaryen holds any promise. It's his mother, Lyanna that makes him a son of Winterfell and his purpose will be to fulfill some Stark role. Being that wolves and ravens are allies in real life, I expect that whatever he does it will be an assist to the crows and ravens. The wolves kill the game and share the feast with the crows.

[King Benjen II]

/thought i was editing the same post repeatedly...

[Melifeather]

I'm thinking Coldhands is an example of what happens when Starks die and no one wards the crypt.

[King Benjen II]

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[Frey family reunion]

As to Danaerys, as I've said in the past I don't see her as the saviour of Westeros but rather look to those clues we've been given of Valyria; all that stuff we've been told of it and the people exploring or disappearing there, not least Tyrion's favourite uncle. And that's another reason why I'm inclined to see her story arc mirroring Jon's and that just as he must venture into the Land of Always Winter so she (and Tyrion) must at some point go into Valyria. Whether she does so en route to Westeros, it being handy sityated by the wayside, or reaches Westeros before realising where her true destiny lies remains to be seen.

Given GRRM's preference for avoiding the obvious I'm inclined to wonder whether Danaerys is indeed Azor Ahai/the Prince that was Promised, having fulfilled all the markers, but that her role is to confront the darkness within Valyria rather than ride out against the blue eyed lot from up north.

I'll agree that I don't see her as the savior either. I think she may however, end up representing the destructive side of fire, which will beset Westeros. Now whether she battles the creeping ice to the north (and heaven help those caught in the middle) or is simply a parallel destructive force, I'm not sure. I think a lot of this depends on whether we're seeing a Ragnorak climax (multiple grudges coming to the fore at once) or we are seeing a cyvasse ending, two players positioning their pieces on the Westeros game board.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

GRRM may well have a definite end in mind; but they evidently didn't figure in the ending sketched out to Benioff and Weiss when this all kicked off.

http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-breaking-bad

Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with him and just talk through where things are going, because we don't know if we are going to catch up, and where exactly that would be. As you were saying before, if you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we sat just down with him and literally went through every character and said, "So what's the destination for Daenarys? And Arya?"

I don't agree with your interpretation of that article. I take it to mean that the only thing they'd discussed was the very end, up until recently, and while I agree that the very end doesn't necessarily include Arya and Daenerys, I don't think that means they aren't involved in the lead up right at the end. Perhaps George told them something like Arya and Daenerys would die, but he didn't tell them how. Perhaps he told them that Jon Snow would actually be the last remaining one to take power after defeating the Others, but he takes the throne (or what's left) out of a sense of duty, not because he sought it.

We can't pretend that just because they didn't know the destination for Dany or Arya that they aren't in Westeros or that they aren't involved in the final action. I don't think those necessarily are exclusive.

I also reject the concept that because GRRM said that he'd added Dragons for his fellow author meant that he added an entire story of "fire" just specifically for them, and that he'd never intended to include the Targaryens.

As for balance, that is a point we agree upon, however, I believe that the "fire" side was already balanced with the Doom of Valyria, and what we'll see with the Others and Westeros is a similar cataclysmic event of Ice.

[King Benjen II]

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[King Benjen II]

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[King Benjen II]

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[Blazfemur]

There are two cover illustrations for a Dream of Spring, but the image is just the opposite. One cover is a necklace with a wolf pendant, the other is a tombstone, so I think that particular book will be about devastation with maybe an inkling of hope at the very end.

What of Daenery's "dragon dream" (for lack of a better word) where she dreamt of melting Others with dragon fire at the Trident with the water causing the river to overflow? Unless that was a scene from the past? Is it possible that there used to be another ice wall at Moat Cailin and the Hammer all those years ago were dragons?

Ah, but Bran does eat human flesh when Coldhands killed those rangers and brought it into the cave as "pig". Jojen and Meera say something about squirrel meat, which I believe is a euphemism for human flesh, and Bran thinks to himself that he doesn't care what kind of meat it is because it's tastes good. Jojen on the other hand, take tiny bites as if disgusted with the knowledge of what it is, but too hungry to not eat it.

New to Heresy? You'll be hard pressed to find any of the regulars here that think Jon will assume the Iron Throne, or even the possibility that him being Targaryen holds any promise. It's his mother, Lyanna that makes him a son of Winterfell and his purpose will be to fulfill some Stark role. Being that wolves and ravens are allies in real life, I expect that whatever he does it will be an assist to the crows and ravens. The wolves kill the game and share the feast with the crows.

believe it or not, yeah i am new to heresy, trying ot jump in and squeeze my way into the philosophies of these posts, but yeah this is the first one ive put insight in.

[Blazfemur]

im personally in the camp that jon targaryen made a promise and oath to the nights watch, and even finding out his lineage, he wouldnt use it "by rights" as stannis would to ascend the throne. no, he thinks and has a mind for the realm, and if he could find out way out of his little dilemma at the moment, i think he'd be a brother of the watch, through and through

[JNR]

The Targaryens, whether dead Rhaegar or any number of pretenders to the Iron Throne are in the end irrelevant.

Well, they're certainly annoying, at minimum.

Just a note of caution: This may have been a random choice of names by Benioff. It might be a mistake to draw too many conclusions from it.

Yes. I think it's fairly plain they do know what happens to Dany, at least; that's the whole point of the completely rewritten HotU visions, which were dramatically superior in the book. They were reimagined from scratch, to be about Dany and nobody but Dany, because the producers obviously had far more specific fish to fry (via dracarys) with those visions than GRRM did.

The other thing that's awkward is the assumption that GRRM controls what happens on the show. He doesn't. Those rights were sold, and HBO can bring Klingons into the story if they want.

They'll talk to GRRM; they care what he thinks and wants and means to do; but if he said "rocks fall, everyone dies" I think HBO would part ways with him on that point. There's a limit to his influence.

[King Benjen II]

Playing catch up. I'm just going to post this and see what you guys think.

In this post I will attempt to work out the idea that Others=Fire (Ice being Old Gods/COTF) and see if some connections can be drawn.

Interesting idea.I think there's a strong case for the NK being buried in the crypts,mainly through Jon's crypt dreams.The reason is to ward him strongly so that he can never rise again.

As to the rest,I'm not so sure.I don't think Winterfell controls Winter as such,but when the Starks were ousted the old gods unleashed Winter.Since both the Wall and the Watch predate the NK,then it must have had a different original purpose as in protecting the south from the Others.

And yes I think Jon might go down the NK route,but that's assuming the original NK wasn't as bad as he was made out to be.He was taken by the Others,as I think Jon will be.

edit Welcome to Heresy.

I like the idea of the NK being buried under Winterfell with a strong warding against him rising again. I also like the idea of Jon's WF crypt dreams being evidence for it. What if the NK is an Other and the Old Gods/COTF locked him up under Winterfell. History is written by the victors. They could have made up a story to make him look like a detestable savage (something history has seen many times in real life). Perhaps NK lost to and was imprisoned by the King of Winter. I'm thinking Stannis is the new NK, thus putting him on the side Others/Fire, he is a Targaryen, vs the new KoW Jon Snow, with the heretical idea his Targ blood has no real significance.

I've had some thoughts along a similar line, although with regards the Night Fort rather than Winterfell.

We know the Night's King was sacrificing to the Others and was overthrown by a combined force led by Joramun and the Stark of Winterfell.

But there is also the story of how the how the men of the Night Fort and the Snowgate thought each other. What was that over, I wonder?

And then, it was whilst staying at the Snowgate that Queen Alysanne had the Night Fort abandoned and a replacement fort built at Deep Lake.

Coincidence?

I'm wondering if these stories are either all one and the same (in which case the timeline is really screwed up!) or mean that history has been repeating itself - the Night's King having returned at least twice to continue whatever it was he did at the Night Fort, and the abandonment of the Night Fort being the most recent occasion in which this happened. I forget who it is (Benjen? Mormont?) but there's a scene where someone from the NW is asked about the Night Fort and curtly replies that "we abandoned it 200 years ago" in a manner that suggests he doesn't wish to talk about it.

Now Stannis has taken up residence at the Night Fort, I'm wondering how long before he begins sacrificing to the Others?

And does this mean that the Night Watch has failed for the 4th time (or 3rd if it was set up only after the first Night's King).

But that said, I'm not convinced the Night's King was the villain of the piece .....

With Stannis as NK and Jon as KoW it would follow that Stannis will end up at NF and Jon at WF. Or maybe the intent of settling the NF is enough to satisfy Stannis as NK and they end up fighting at WF when Jon arrives. I like the idea that your examples represent history repeating itself. Snowgate vs NF being a micro version of the Battle For the Dawn (Old gods/COTF vs Others) for example. I do not believe your examples are coincidences, simply history repeating itself in different scale battles in the war of Ice vs Fire.

This also makes sense out of Stannis and Melisandre being aligned. Perhaps Asha or Theon will be Stannis's first sacrifice to the Others. I'm going with the idea that NK is lighter grey/more "hero". So Jon Snow as KoW would be darker grey/more "villain".

btw on the subject of winter starting at Winterfell, I don't know if this has ever been brought up either here or elsewhere, but is the 'pink letter' a desperate ploy to persuade the only known Stark in the north - a man who would not willingly abandon his 'duty' - to go to Winterfell before it's too late? Because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and now it's known that 'Arya' is a fake it means there are none there .....

Following my line of thought in this post it could also be Stannis's attempt to lure Jon into a trap.

A very interesting post with a couple of attracive ideas, but alas if true the timelines would indeed be far more screwed than we've ever dared to suggest because the fight between the commanders of the Nightfort and the Snowgate took place just 600 years ago, or to be more precise 300 years before Aegon's landing.

What is interesting of course, going off on a tangent, is the total collapse of the Watch after the arrival of the Targaryens. That business of abandoning the Night Fort in favour a of new fort at Deep Lake and the grant of the New Gift was all about shoring up an organisation in decline, but notwithstanding the decline must have increased rather than been arrested since within a couple of hundred years tops the Watch has retreated to just the three castles atv Eastwatch, Castle Black and the Shadow Tower.

Now granted that after the initial unpleasantness there was a Pax Targaryena, but the wars of the old kingdoms surely couldn't produce the continuous columns of prisoners to sustain all the castles of the Watch?

I agree with Essan that they are examples of history repeating itself. They are seperate events. No timeline issues (that I'm aware of).

Perhaps the Targs, being on the side of Fire/Others/NK crippled the NW as it was originally an instituation of Ice/Old Gods/COTF/KoW.

As to your last point, Stannis may have announced his intention of taking up residence at the Night Fort, presumably because it is big enough to serve as a royal seat, but he aint got there yet, currently being stuck in the snow outside Winterfell. Even if he did move in as we've seen his taste, very properly as a Targaryen, rests with Fire rather than Ice so no, I don't reckonon him sacrificing to the Others any time soon.

I speculate that Stannis being very properly Targaryen/on the side of fire actually makes sense out of the NF as his seat since it was the seat of the NK, an Other, Others being on the side of Fire, thus Others are on the Targaryen side. So it would make perfect sense for him to sacrifice to the Others. It also may be that Stannis's intention to take up residence in the NF is enough to satisfy his link as the new NK, or that not taking up residence does not exclude him from being NK.

The line of thought in this post would put characters such as Dany, Melisandre, red priests, etc on the side of the Others.

I will also speculate that The Last Hero and Azor Ahai are not the same person,but counterparts in the Battle For The Dawn. LH= Ice, AA= Fire.

I will end this post here and see what thoughts you guys have before I try to flesh this out further.

[JNR]

I agree that the 'Ice and Fire' dichotomy would work with just men. However, I think Black Crow is reading way too much into that dedication. I tried to see if Martin was ever asked about it, and while I couldn't (easily) find anything in SSM, I found this explanation:

"GRRM has talked about this in interviews. It was very early in the process of creating the series, and actually, the choice was "magic or no magic" -- he wasn't sure whether to make the series fantasy or more like a historical fiction. And his friend Phyllis Eisenstein, another fantasy author, urged him to put the dragons in. The "no magic" option would've meant "no Others" also, so it would obviously be a very different series." (http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1zco1c/for_phyllisspoilers_all/)

So, once dragons are in the story, they're going to be an integral part of the Song of Ice and Fire IMO.

Just so. They were baked in at a very, very early point in the creative process.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think, taking Benioff and Weiss at their word, not knowing Dany's fate is incredibly revealing. This isn't a question of the show deviating from the story but about the ending of the story as GRRM envisages it. Benioff and Weiss apparently know what that vision is and if they didn't know what happens to Dany then it follows that she isn't part of that ending. Proceeding on that basis we can therefore rule out the following.

1. Jon and Dany will meet and marry. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

2. Dany will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, she doesn't figure in the ending.

3. Jon will destroy the Others with dragonfire. Nope, Benioff and Weiss would have to know how Jon comes to be on one of her dragons

4. Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros. Nope, Dany's arc thus far is all about how she is the last Targaryen and wants to reclaim the Iron Throne. For Jon to assume that role Benioff and Weiss would have to know why Dany is out of the picture.

Definitely think you're taking one quote which may not mean what you think it means way too far.