Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[Black Crow]

Wow ... Just reading George's blog and he makes a comment about the Flashman series of books. Ice and Fire now makes allot more sense that it did being related to just fantasy books, and " the unreliable narrator" takes on a whole clearer meaning. Now I know where Tyrion comes from! :)

Going to have to watch the original "Four Feathers" again just to see the inside joke of Flashman sitting at the head of the table for the storytelling. I think I like George allot more now.

Har!

Not read that one. Tyrion certainly fits Flashman pretty well and so too does the whole theme of heroic deeds turning out to be something quite different entirely.

[Dagda]

Har!

Not read that one. Tyrion certainly fits Flashman pretty well and so too does the whole theme of heroic deeds turning out to be something quite different entirely.

Combine Jamie and Tyrion and you get Flashman. Tyrion at the Charge, Jamie in the Old West. It really is close. Man, one little comment can peal layers and mystery off a book it can make your head swim.

Can you imagine what the Church would do if I suggested putting the ToJ and Rhaeger through the Flashman filter.

:commie:

[JNR]

I'm dismissive of all the gods in the story. No one seems to believe that the Seven are going to take an active role in the final confrontations in the novels, so why would the Red God, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, or any of the other permutations take a role. Characters are acting on belief systems, not being directed by those god heads.

Largely agree.

The exception is the old gods, whom we now understand via Bran and Bloodraven actually to exist, albeit in a way that Ned Stark never conceived. But even they are not exactly going to pop up out of the stage and solve all the problems.

To imagine this story ends in some mythical battle between Ice and Fire with magical swords, magical words, magic dragons, magic wolves, primal archetypes, is just missing the point.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything like a team of Ice and a team of Fire that will collide at some point and then boom, the story's over. That's a little too tidy and simplistic for these books.

But I do think we're going to see battles that involve most the elements you list above.

Actually, we've already seen battles that involve such a list. Previous battle elements include magical zombies, magic Walls, magic direwolves, spell-forged swords, giants, people who can move their consciousnesses into animals, and other people who can magically set those animals on fire from a distance.

[JNR]

Can you imagine what the Church would do if I suggested putting the ToJ and Rhaegar through the Flashman filter.

I think the Church might object that Rhaegar -- a virgin when he married, as far as we've ever been told -- doesn't fit at all in certain key respects.

Then the Church might say "Oh, no, actually... best not to point that out..."

[Black Crow]

I think it would be more a matter of Tyrion/Flashman finding out about Rhaegar, but quietly riding off and deliberately not telling his friend Jon.

[Black Crow]

Largely agree.

The exception is the old gods, whom we now understand via Bran and Bloodraven actually to exist, albeit in a way that Ned Stark never conceived. But even they are not exactly going to pop up out of the stage and solve all the problems.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything like a team of Ice and a team of Fire that will collide at some point and then boom, the story's over. That's a little too tidy and simplistic for these books.

But I do think we're going to see battles that involve most the elements you list above.

Actually, we've already seen battles that involve such a list. Previous battle elements include magical zombies, magic Walls, magic direwolves, spell-forged swords, giants, people who can move their consciousnesses into animals, and other people who can magically set those animals on fire from a distance.

Indeed, this war is being fought by proxies, drawing upon those powers but in the end its going to be resolved by those proxies and by the neutralisation of those powers, say at the expence of the old races, rather than by some epic battle in the last chapter.

[Dagda]

Largely agree.

The exception is the old gods, whom we now understand via Bran and Bloodraven actually to exist, albeit in a way that Ned Stark never conceived. But even they are not exactly going to pop up out of the stage and solve all the problems.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything like a team of Ice and a team of Fire that will collide at some point and then boom, the story's over. That's a little too tidy and simplistic for these books.

But I do think we're going to see battles that involve most the elements you list above.

Actually, we've already seen battles that involve such a list. Previous battle elements include magical zombies, magic Walls, magic direwolves, spell-forged swords, giants, people who can move their consciousnesses into animals, and other people who can magically set those animals on fire from a distance.

Agree, but with the caveat that magic isn't the ending. Politics and a return to a human based structure will be. ( ok ladies, take me apart! ;) )

[Yield.]

I think it would be more a matter of Tyrion/Flashman finding out about Rhaegar, but quietly riding off and deliberately not telling his friend Jon.

Forgive me because this is not directed at you specifically.

I really don't like how everyone (well the posters any way) refer to Jon's parentage being a given. I for one (and I know there are more) do not belief R+L-J. So please all of you remember that even thought it is a good one, it is still a theory. And as such should be treated as one.

[Dagda]

Look at the L+R situation with the Harry filter. Rhaegar wins tourney because someone else knocks off completion, runs off with someone's girlfriend, "rogers" her, gets her pregnant, marries her even though he's already married, hides cowering far away from battle, finally takes the field hiding behind his best men because someone forces him, by mistake ends up fighting one on one, but as always well dressed.

[Dagda]

Forgive me because this is not directed at you specifically.

I really don't like how everyone (well the posters any way) refer to Jon's parentage being a given. I for one (and I know there are more) do not belief R+L-J. So please all of you remember that even thought it is a good one, it is still a theory. And as such should be treated as one.

You are absolutely correct that it's a theory, but as much as I would love a different resolution, the weight of the evidence does fall on the side of it being true. I think the way it is used here is more of a position of "don't want to get into that again."

[redriver]

redriver has now loaded the first Flashman book on to his Kindle.Will his life ever be the same again?

[Dagda]

redriver has now loaded the first Flashman book on to his Kindle.Will his life ever be the same again?

No, but you are in for a great ride!

[Melifeather]

I've always had suspicions about the Stonemen, stone golems, and a literary link to the wrights.

I suspect the Stone Men are the Fire equivalent of Ice's Wights. They're dormant (sort of) in darkness and get excited by various forms of light, such as torches.

Wow ... Just reading George's blog and he makes a comment about the Flashman series of books. Ice and Fire now makes allot more sense that it did being related to just fantasy books, and " the unreliable narrator" takes on a whole clearer meaning. Now I know where Tyrion comes from! :)

Going to have to watch the original "Four Feathers" again just to see the inside joke of Flashman sitting at the head of the table for the storytelling. I think I like George allot more now.

Please elaborate. I am not familiar with Flashman.

Forgive me because this is not directed at you specifically.

I really don't like how everyone (well the posters any way) refer to Jon's parentage being a given. I for one (and I know there are more) do not belief R+L-J. So please all of you remember that even thought it is a good one, it is still a theory. And as such should be treated as one.

I am with you here, Yield, because I don't think Jon's father is dead.

[Yield.]

in light of the way the discussion seems to be going I will add what I think the whole series is hitting at:

On this business of Ice and Fire I am not entirely sure that it is a question of Ice over Fire and vice versa. In fact I am not too sure it’s about the two finding a way to balance each other and (to borrow a phrase from Terry Pratchett) to have them exchange dominions annually so that one will be kept in check with the other.

Rather looking at the overall picture represented by the story. The political side, I feel shouldn’t be ignore. More than half the book is about the game of thrones. This to me points to the resolution has to include a form of peaceful resolution of this as well. I don’t think the Iron Throne will be smashed and that will be the end of all high kings/queens. Rather a ruler free of political influence or persuasion will sit it. Or if s/he is not free of such then it is based on doing the best for the people.

Much of this story echoes how atonement for past wrongs heals the human heart; both for the ruler and the small folk (hate that phase). Another hint is how Jaimie and Brienne’s whole arcs are about atonement. If we suppose Sandor survived so will his be, because the whole purpose and speech of the Elder Brother is about just that: atonement and redemption.

Anyway moving on to my point, Dany is definitely atoning for her ancestors’ wrongs by smashing the slave trade. As the last of a ruling line of Valaryans, a ruthlessly enslaving peolpe, she is the only one who can accomplish this.. Yes she is ruthless and Tywinesque at times but her heart is pure: She wants to end the abomination that is using human flesh as a commodity which is bought and sold without self-approval. She is in fact healing or rectifying the wrongs done by her people.

The Starks on the other hand are different. As a First Man he needed, rectify the harm done by (fill in the blank) by building the Wall and subjugating all those men and races behind it, because in a way they have condemned those peoples to a terrible way of life. The Singers are sequestered; the Giants are abhorred (cf Wun Wun;) their mammoths are nearly gone and the Free folk themselves are only free in so far as they remain in the Lands beyond the Wall, where there is little to sustain them. Great massacres have occurred whenever they have tried to better their lot.

Job by allowing the Free Folk south of the Wall has in effect healed minenia of wrongs. That he is feeding them too at the detriment of the Night’s Watch is a form of atonement. Just like Dany, he has taken into his fold the enemy/oppressed and in both cases that means increased political power. They are both just and worthy rulers of any kingdom.

[Yield.]

You are absolutely correct that it's a theory, but as much as I would love a different resolution, the weight of the evidence does fall on the side of it being true. I think the way it is used here is more of a position of "don't want to get into that again."

Yeah I see what you mean, its better to go with the tide than swim against it.

However ( not tp turn this into and R and L thread) I don't see that weight of evidence as anything more than 'that's what they want to think'. I am a true heretic in that sense, lol!

[FainRivers]

I've always had suspicions about the Stonemen, stone golems, and a literary link to the wrights.

And we've got Shireen at the wall in the NF. Who Val seems to think is a ticking, grayscale time bomb.

[Yield.]

I suspect the Stone Men are the Fire equivalent of Ice's Wights. They're dormant (sort of) in darkness and get excited by various forms of light, such as torches.

1. Please elaborate. I am not familiar with Flashman.

2. I am with you here, Yield, because I don't think Jon's father is dead.

1. Ditto and hope it proves enlightening Red :)

2.That's v interesting cause I don't believe Jon's real mother is dead!

[Dagda]

Please elaborate. I am not familiar with Flashman.

JNR put the wiki link above.

I'm not surprised you haven't heard of him. I'd be surprised if more than a hand full of women have ever read the books, they are so male centric. If you like pure fun with no moral center, these are the books for you. ( when ever I read them I have the Benny Hill theme running in the back of my head. )

[FainRivers]

I suspect the Stone Men are the Fire equivalent of Ice's Wights. They're dormant (sort of) in darkness and get excited by various forms of light, such as torches.

Please elaborate. I am not familiar with Flashman.

I am with you here, Yield, because I don't think Jon's father is dead.

I'm intrigued...

[Urrax2]

...

2.That's v interesting cause I don't believe Jon's real mother is dead!

More, please?