Daenerys as a "Villain" Appreciation 2.0, with new take

[Lord Reaver]

This is a whole new level of messy, c'mon guys.

About the same level of messy as the post which my original statement was made, I'd say. My post was made to show how outrageous that claim was.

[Dany Girl]

There is nothing in the text that Stormborn or any of her minions did anything to find out who was guilty in the first place. She tells to pick 163 victims and they do. The end.

There is nothing to even suggest any investigation or that she cared about guilt or innocence, nothing, not one line.

If she cared about who was guilty in the first place she would not have simply told the GM to give her 163 people to string up. The very fact of what she did from the outset shows she doens't care about factual guilt.

She never asks for the guilty. She asks for the leaders. And she likely does so since she knows Meereen is ruled by a council, and members make decisions together. There's nothing suggesting that any member of the Great Masters was not involved. That is strictly fanfic Dany haters making shit up to villainize Dany further.

[Cas Stark]

Well, in a thread where Jon Snow is accused of torturing Gilly and conducting a genocidal war against the others.....I'm not sure anyone has a right to be too critical.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nope, because Jon didn't give her a choice. He forcibly took her new born baby from her. That's horrific.

Jon gave her the choice to either obey or not. It was her choice.

Mel didn't know Gilly's son wasn't Mance's until much later, so Gilly's son was in the same danger Mance's would have been.

She does know it. Val, who btw takes care of the Monster, told Jon that.

And send her back beyond the wall? So her choice is:

-we both die

- give up your son to fairly certain death, even if he lives the likelihood you'll ever see him is pretty much zero.

Wrong. That was Jon's chioce, he could left her to die but he didn't.

Ask any mother with a brand new baby how they'd feel if it was ripped out of their hands to face a probable death only to have a strangers baby forced on you? To a mom, that's basically worse than death. At least to every mom I know.

I am sure that those 12yo and beyond and the winesellers daughters didn't had parents who cared about them.

Absolutely. This is torture. You do not have to pull put someones fingernails to torture him. You only have to look around your school or university or pretty much any place today, where people get bullied. You think this is no torture? Then you have seriously no clue at all how that feels. These people go to such extremes as killing themselves. So there must be something to it.

So Jon was tortured?

[Wmarshal]

Why are guys talking about Jon snow? This is about Dany, if Jon does something bad it does not make her actions okay.

[Skagosi High Chef]

It's easy to make the moral decision in easy situation though. Jon has not faced 1/10th the injustice that Dany has faced (making of the Unsullied). There's nothing that Jon has faced that he's really been forced to choose between right/wrong/shades of grey. Dany has had injustice and horrible living conditions in front of her since day 1. She's had to make decisions that are mortally grey in order to do what's morally right- killing potential "innocent" slavers in order to free the slaves. Jon has never had a decision to make that was nearly as hard as decisions Dany has made her entire story line. No wonder he seems so much better! His hardest decision was to betray Ygrette.

I agree there is disparity between the moral choices the two characters have had to make and one can only guess how the other would have behaved had situations been reversed. However, I do think, IMO, that many of the mistakes or questionable decisions Jon makes are due to naivety or lack of options where many of Dany's are dictated by her temper, impulsiveness, and a skewed sense of self-righteousness due to her family legend.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why are guys talking about Jon snow? This is about Dany, if Jon does something bad it does not make her actions okay.

Obviously Jon has to be there because Dany is a saint and martyr when she is compared to that devil in disguise.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

context ;)

I got the context, thank you . YAY NERO???? Too bad for that kid who got castrated and made into a replica of that wife he murdered?

[Dany Girl]

I agree there is disparity between the moral choices the two characters have had to make and one can only guess how the other would have behaved had situations been reversed. However, I do think, IMO, that many of the mistakes or questionable decisions Jon makes are due to naivety or lack of options where many of Dany's are dictated by her temper, impulsiveness, and a skewed sense of self-righteousness due to her family legend.

I can mostly agree. It comes down to their upbringing though. Jon was raised as a loved bastard child of an idealistic high lord, he's very idealistic and naive. And given his education it's kinda confusing. Dany on the other hand was raised by an egomaniac brother, indoctrinated to believe her blood makes her special, victimized daily, sold to a warlords like a cow to slaughter. She's felt the knives of assassin on her heels every day of her life*. She's had next to no formal education. She leads entirely with her heart, for good or bad. That's why she acts impulsively, and vengefully. She's also naive to the way governments actually work. Hence her failure with the idealistic council she left in charge of Astapor. That wasn't malicious, it was naive.

[Cas Stark]

I agree there is disparity between the moral choices the two characters have had to make and one can only guess how the other would have behaved had situations been reversed. However, I do think, IMO, that many of the mistakes or questionable decisions Jon makes are due to naivety or lack of options where many of Dany's are dictated by her temper, impulsiveness, and a skewed sense of self-righteousness due to her family legend.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a higher expectation for someone who starts a war of choice, no matter how pure their motives are, than I do of someone who is dropped into the middle of a situation beyond his or her control.

She starts the war in slaver's bay and she has no plan, no strategy, no vision for what she's going to do after she gets past the exhilarton and self righteousness she feels in Astapor when she first commands the unsullied to free the slaves. The half assed plan she does put in place is just that, half assed, and so falls apart. She tries a wholly different strategy in Yunkai, also fails. And then, her 3rd try out, turns out to be the worst of all because she lets the sellswords sack the city and then allows herself again, a fit of emotional rage. And still, she can't come up with anything even half way successful. It's pathetic.

[El Guapo]

Maybe it's just me, but I have a higher expectation for someone who starts a war of choice, no matter how pure their motives are, than I do of someone who is dropped into the middle of a situation beyond his or her control.

She starts the war in slaver's bay and she has no plan, no strategy, no vision for what she's going to do after she gets past the exhilarton and self righteousness she feels in Astapor when she first commands the unsullied to free the slaves. The half assed plan she does put in place is just that, half assed, and so falls apart. She tries a wholly different strategy in Yunkai, also fails. And then, her 3rd try out, turns out to be the worst of all because she lets the sellswords sack the city and then allows herself again, a fit of emotional rage. And still, she can't come up with anything even half way successful. It's pathetic.

Mereen is the worst of all? Like seriously?

[Skagosi High Chef]

I can mostly agree. It comes down to their upbringing though. Jon was raised as a loved bastard child of an idealistic high lord, he's very idealistic and naive. And given his education it's kinda confusing. Dany on the other hand was raised by an egomaniac brother, indoctrinated to believe her blood makes her special, victimized daily, sold to a warlords like a cow to slaughter. She's felt the knives of assassin on her heels every day of her life*. She's had next to no formal education. She leads entirely with her heart, for good or bad. That's why she acts impulsively, and vengefully. She's also naive to the way governments actually work. Hence her failure with the idealistic council she left in charge of Astapor. That wasn't malicious, it was naive.

I think that is a fair and balanced analysis.

[Wmarshal]

I can mostly agree. It comes down to their upbringing though. Jon was raised as a loved bastard child of an idealistic high lord, he's very idealistic and naive. And given his education it's kinda confusing. Dany on the other hand was raised by an egomaniac brother, indoctrinated to believe her blood makes her special, victimized daily, sold to a warlords like a cow to slaughter. She's felt the knives of assassin on her heels every day of her life*. She's had next to no formal education. She leads entirely with her heart, for good or bad. That's why she acts impulsively, and vengefully. She's also naive to the way governments actually work. Hence her failure with the idealistic council she left in charge of Astapor. That wasn't malicious, it was naive.

As was the mass butcher, and denying the ghiscari children she orphaned aid? When do we blame her for this evil stuff. Old enough to sentence someone to death is old enough to be judged.

[El Guapo]

As was the mass butcher, and denying the ghiscari children she orphaned aid? When do we blame her for this evil stuff. Old enough to sentence someone to death is old enough to be judged.

I didn't realize anyone was stopping you from blaming her?

[Cas Stark]

Mereen is the worst of all? Like seriously?

Yes, this is where she lets the sellswords sack the city, with bodies piled high in the streets, where she allows the winesellar's daughters to be tortured, crucifies the random people....slavery is back, re-opens the pits. It is yes by far her worst outing as a "leader" where she devolves even further.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

~Hoping lots of posters jury duty forms are lost in the mail, on both sides, LOL~

[El Guapo]

Yes, this is where she lets the sellswords sack the city, with bodies piled high in the streets, where she allows the winesellar's daughters to be tortured, crucifies the random people....slavery is back, re-opens the pits. It is yes by far her worst outing as a "leader" where she devolves even further.

Yes when you sack a city lots of people die. Did you expect that they would just open the gates for her and hand over power? As far as torture goes it has been well established in these books that torture is commonplace throughout the world. Yes it is bad but it is certainly not unique to Dany. Slavery is not back in Mereen. It is back outside the walls of Mereen which is a shame but Dany decided to allow it as a compromise in order to try to achieve peace which I guess is bad now? It is the same thing with the fighting pits. A compromise made to achieve peace which apparently is bad, very bad. She should never compromise on anything And you know what it might have worked as many believe she was on the verge of attaining that peace right up to the point where Drogon appeared and whisked her away,

[Wmarshal]

So we cannot wash out the fact that Daenerys may have continued to own slaves, but she never mistreated them unlike their previous masters. She gave them food and shelter and protection and considered the real humans, not goods. She risked her life to safe them when the pale mare came. She treated them better than smallfolk is treated in Westeros.

Um, Xaro's friend worked like a dog to dig Dany's ditches. This what a slaver gives a slave. As for the humans not goods part is only works if she is not slaving them she is. This is the astapor refugees, not the people she has working the ditches. Those guys are working like, well, slaves.

Mass extermination.

Never good. Never right. But I see no other way in such a case. We saw what it did when Daenerys did not get rid of all. I am always for the non violent way. But this time there was no option for it. She couldn't go there and hold a hungerstrike for 90 days or have a sit in. The slavers would have loved that. She would have died and they would have continued their lives.

This strategy does not work. She kill them all and the other 20 slavery super powers in Essos takes over.

[Cas Stark]

Yes when you sack a city lots of people die. Did you expect that they would just open the gates for her and hand over power? As far as torture goes it has been well established in these books that torture is commonplace throughout the world. Yes it is bad but it is certainly not unique to Dany. Slavery is not back in Mereen. It is back outside the walls of Mereen which is a shame but Dany decided to allow it as a compromise in order to try to achieve peace which I guess is bad now? It is the same thing with the fighting pits. A compromise made to achieve peace which apparently is bad, very bad. She should never compromise on anything And you know what it might have worked as many believe she was on the verge of attaining that peace right up to the point where Drogon appeared and whisked her away,

It shows that her rule is a failure and her judgment all along the way is poor. The proof is in the pudding. She has brought death, disease and destruction to Slaver's Bay. Even the former slaves are dying and starving...those who haven't either gone into the slave trade themselves or aren't selling themselves back into slavery to stay alive. So, you are going to call an abolitionist crusade that has only succeeded at preventing slavery inside the gates of one of 3 cities on the days when there are no fights in the pits as a success? Come on.

How can this possibly be heralded as any kind of benefit? And the freak still plans to leave for Westeros!

Look, I supported her for almost 3 books. I supported her even after Astapor but I was taken aback that she killed all the men and teens in a tokar, but after she got to Meereen and basically destroyed it, and didn't lift a finger to fix Astapor, I can't do it. She is unfit for ruling.

ETA/And since she's taking a cut of the new slave market outside of the walls...doesn't that make her a slaver?

[Metopheles]

So Jon was tortured?

Can't believe that I would agree to something you say.

Of course he fucking was.