[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Arya, at least in part represents children who have to fare outside the conventional portection of society that would normally afford them. Even in Braavos she is not given protection but the means and the knowledge to protect herself. I suspect that for children who live on the firnges, one soes not need to go to an emulation of the middleages to find examples like that and frankly given the course Martin has taken wiht Arya it would have been inconsistent for Martin, not to have her have to deal with that sort of thing sooner or later and while disturbing the content of this chapter was hardly surprising, for me at least.

As for gratuitous, well no part of this has been presented in any form of positive manner. I can discern distaste on Arya's behalf and the fellow guard's response is appropriately, uneqivocally and condemningly abrupt. It is disgusting and there is no further discussion of it is required. I can think of several in story reasons for it. Interestingly enough I don't see either of the men as a habitual or preferrential pedophile. Raff simply has no semblance of conscience when it comes to satisfying his urges and would be fine with anything breathing and a chance to vicitmize someone. As for Bobono, he would appear to have adopted the world's view of dwarves as a subhuman from whom these sorts of things are expected. In sort he has been treated like a freak, makes his living like one and acts like one. The development of Tyrion's character is a study on how that works. No further analysis is possible as this Interestingly enough, this reflects perceptions associated with Tyrion putting a foreshadowing spin on the whole exchange.

So, not unwarranted and not done for its own sake. The only gratification that might come from this is that the recipient of those attentions is not the victim, but puts one aggressor in his place and kills the other using his own urges against him. There is a shock value, but that is true for the entire series. Why do we need to read a series that events like this have their place? Well, we don't. Personally I enjoy being disturbed, horrified, prodded, shocked, stunned, bewildered, etc. ... by fiction.

Very well put. All this -and worse- is what happens today, in our modern and oh so moral western societies, to kids living in the streets.

The saddest thing about all that is the realisation of the fate of all the Mercys of the world. It's grow up quickly and protect yourself by any means you might have, or you'll always be the victim.

Arya since AGOT is thrown, without a safety net, into a world that goes round by Sandor's law - If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. And this world is honestly described as awful. No child should be made to suffer that, that's true, but unfortunatelly that's only wishful thinking both in series as well as in real world (most people would say that, but how many are doing anything to change it?). Arya's options have been either to live by it, or to lay down and die.

Just read the chapter and I couldn't believe it! What is GRRM getting at?

The FM are supposed to be these super smart, super stealthy, super professional killers, and Arya in ADWD went to real length to execute a perfect murder.

What does she do here?

1. She expresses interest in the victim towards her co-worker at the mummers

2. She chats up the victim in front of a witness

3. She speaks in a language she is not supposed to know (at least she was aware of that)

4. She publicliy leaves with the victim

5. She takes him to her own house !!!!!!

6. She kills him at her own house in bloodiest possible way, by cutting two main blood vessels. Imagine what her flat now looks like - like a slaughter house!

7. She pulls the body down the stairs to the canal - imagine the trail of blood she is leaving.

8. She gave the victim a chance to scream or to attack her - she was real lucky he didn't.

Why did she carry out the worst assassination since four knights went to Canterbury Cathedral in 1170? Why ?

Why not just kill him somewhere in the streets near water, it was very foggy after all? Why not lure him somewhere else? Why not follow him after the show of find out otherwise where he is lodging and kill him later where no connection to her could be made? Has she lost all her wits?

Sorry for the rant, but I am just so shocked by this chapter.

We should keep in mind that this was not an FM kill. She could have killed him neatly and quietly if she wanted to, but the important thing for her was to replay Lommy's murder, to make Raff die knowing why she killed him. She chose to do it that way, knowing very well that she would compromise Mercy's persona to the extent that she needed to "kill her off" too.

I'm not certain if Mercy was to "die" anyway or it was only that the character that she was playing would die on stage. I tend towards the later, that Arya Stark chose to kill Raff this way, so Mercy had to die too.

This will complicate her relationship with the HoBaW, but I believe that she made a conscious choice knowing the consequences.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It could be to get some sort of foreshadowing in for a meeting between Arya and Tyrion, but there are so many foreshadowing examples discussed on this board that will come to nothing, and I am sure GRRM could have found a better way to have bonobo offend Arya than his groping her

If there is any sort of forshadowing in that scene of how a future Arya-Tyrion interaction would play out, I 'd expect that Tyrion will learn -after she teaches him a harsh lesson- to guard this tongue in her vicinity. Tyrion will finally get an appropriate response to his anoying "witty" comments (don't get me wrong, I love Tyrion as a character but his "witticisms" are long due to be paid in kind.)

[Facelesss Fan]

I like this. Arya wold make a good counterpoint to Tyrion.

[Elaena Targaryen]

The whole issue over just how much of Mercy's personality and memories could be seeping in, so to speak, and what Arya may be juggling or dealing with and how difficult all this could be is really intriguing. There are times where you can wonder if it's really happening - fuss and feathers or the wolf dream being referred to as a nightmare, just as other times we know Arya is in the driver's seat and even times when Arya seems to be pushing herself into the Mercy persona. But it may not even be an issue and it's something we will have to wait and see more on.

It rehashes an older curiosity of mine that has not been fully appeased - Jaqen being named. "Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now." It's been dissected and discussed several times already but I always wanted more specifics - was Jaqen his 'true' identity and if not why would he have to actually kill himself when he could merely change identities like Arya seems to plan on "killing" Mercy, and so on. If Mercy swore to take a life for someone, like Jaqen did for her, would she have to really kill herself if they 'named' Mercy? And so on.

Just more questions but I do wonder if there really is some type of possible 'melding' going on, just how far are the repercussions, and if it is it does sound like a stronger magic and bond similar to warging? Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill, I just get curious over the details like I would really love to know who the guard on duty with Raff was even though it's of no consequence.

All of this also reminds me of this interview with Martin (particularly the parts in red)

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

[Rhaegars Heir]

in curious what people think is going to happen to harys swift I see the iron back either executing him quietly or imprisoning him

[Cas Stark]

in curious what people think is going to happen to harys swift I see the iron back either executing him quietly or imprisoning him

I don't think they'll do anything, they'll tell him to fuck off, go tell the queen she's not getting any Braavosi money until she pays her debts, bitchez. Why execute him or put him in prison? How would this further any agenda of the IB?

[conon394]

This will complicate her relationship with the HoBaW, but I believe that she made a conscious choice knowing the consequences.

Arya's kill all the way and we know she is willing to do that. The question left hanging is what to make of the final 2 paragraphs?

On the one hand she intends to finish her act, but after she seems feel there will be a decision (for Arya) and no more Mercy.

[Stormourne]

I really, really do believe Jon Snow (Should he live) will be the one character that can stop the darkness from consuming her. As far as she knows, Jon is the only one left alive in her family. If she hears he has died (even if it is false info) I wonder what that will do for her "Arya" personality, and judging by her reaction, we will see how far she is truly gone (Since they were also so close). This is assuming it happens before she finds out that Bran, Sansa and Rickon are alive.

The envoy Stannis sent will know if Jon is dead or alive. Though there is a small possibility that they could have left before witnessing a miracle (like a resurrection or something) so maybe Arya will run into them and overhear something? If she hears Jon's men attempted to kill him but he survived, do you think that will be a reason for her to seek him out? Mid FM training or not? I'm hopeful.

She could also have a dream where the tree "Bran" tells her to go to him. Damn... I need to read WoW as soon as possible to find out =)

[conon394]

I really, really do believe Jon Snow (Should he live) will be the one character that can stop the darkness from consuming her. As far as she knows, Jon is the only one left alive in her family. If she hears he has died (even if it is false info) I wonder what that will do for her "Arya" personality, and judging by her reaction, we will see how far she is truly gone (Since they were also so close). This is assuming it happens before she finds out that Bran, Sansa and Rickon are alive.

The envoy Stannis sent will know if Jon is dead or alive. Though there is a small possibility that they could have left before witnessing a miracle (like a resurrection or something) so maybe Arya will run into them and overhear something? If she hears Jon's men attempted to kill him but he survived, do you think that will be a reason for her to seek him out? Mid FM training or not? I'm hopeful.

She could also have a dream where the tree "Bran" tells her to go to him. Damn... I need to read WoW as soon as possible to find out =)

True there is nothing I can think of that would drive Arya to abandon the FM faster than the rummer of Jon's death.

[kephv]

It rehashes an older curiosity of mine that has not been fully appeased - Jaqen being named. "Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now." It's been dissected and discussed several times already but I always wanted more specifics - was Jaqen his 'true' identity and if not why would he have to actually kill himself when he could merely change identities like Arya seems to plan on "killing" Mercy, and so on. If Mercy swore to take a life for someone, like Jaqen did for her, would she have to really kill herself if they 'named' Mercy? And so on.

A simple explanation might be that the FM behind Jaqen became attached to the personality and so was distraught at having to "kill" him, as Arya was distraught over ending Mercy. It could also be that he was distraught only at having to "kill" Jaqen before he planned to, or because he knew he'd have to do what Arya wanted to get out of the deal.

Just more questions but I do wonder if there really is some type of possible 'melding' going on, just how far are the repercussions, and if it is it does sound like a stronger magic and bond similar to warging? Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill, I just get curious over the details like I would really love to know who the guard on duty with Raff was even though it's of no consequence.

All of this also reminds me of this interview with Martin (particularly the parts in red)

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

It's very a interesting possibility, and it certainly seems like he introduced the memory aspect for this reason. I also wonder if it goes even further with women, and if that's one of the reasons there haven't been too many as FM -- the Kindly Man says women bring the gift of life, but could this hold more than the literal meaning? That is, could the dead persons personality come back completely if Arya wears the face long enough, so much that she would essentially have multiple personalities that she could call on at will?

True there is nothing I can think of that would drive Arya to abandon the FM faster than the rummer of Jon's death.

I see the opposite: There's really nothing more that would make her want to stay and finish. If she wasn't running to him while he was alive, she's not going to be running to a corpse, at least not immediately -- though it certainly might make her want to kill Cersei even more, if rumor has it that she played a part in his "death."

[boojam]

This will complicate her relationship with the HoBaW, but I believe that she made a conscious choice knowing the consequences.

People seem to think she will be in hot water with the House of Black and White because of her actions.

But, and I may be misremembering and not recalling, we have been given very few of the HOUSE RULES, so to speak.

There is a rule, odd to me, that a FM cannot kill anyone that FM 'knows', exactly what 'knows' means I am not sure , if one is on more than passing acquaintance?

Second there is a , by inference, that if someone saves you from one of the gods, you own a dept of 'gift' to that person since that god will be one of the gods of the Many Faced God.

Hence Jaquen's interaction with Arya.

I guess if someone saves an FM from drowning then the FM owes that person the 'gift' for The Drowned God.

No where have I seen any instruction to Arya about this point.

It does seem if you a given a 'hit' job by the FM 'council' you better complete it.

I you are an acolyte in training, or even a full blown FM, there has been no restriction put on your doing your own extracurricular whack jobs. Not that I remember GRRM writing on the page.

So Arya may not be violating an FM rule.

She does seem at the end of her first phase of FM training.

[Stormourne]

I see the opposite: There's really nothing more that would make her want to stay and finish. If she wasn't running to him while he was alive, she's not going to be running to a corpse, at least not immediately -- though it certainly might make her want to kill Cersei even more, if rumor has it that she played a part in his "death."

Though, if she hears that they tried to kill him but failed, would she seek him out? I'm hopeful.

[conon394]

I see the opposite: There's really nothing more that would make her want to stay and finish. If she wasn't running to him while he was alive,

She was actually - but she lacked the money for passage. She rejected other distant relatives. The thing about actively running is she well knows she is just pry being schooled to know time and time again - the FM our the first Refuge she has had. Plus she is no fool she knows she cannot really stay with Jon on the BW he would have to send her somewhere. In addition her experience of life has shown her only two people the Hound and JH who can move through 'her' world as not sheep. She is not going to be a knight err equivalent+ so she has found her best bet until something makes her change her mind or feel a need. At this point I can think of only a Bran message via wolf dream or Jon's apparent death. But I don't see her giving up Aryra to be no-one

[Stormourne]

She was actually - but she lacked the money for passage. She rejected other distant relatives. The thing about actively running is she well knows she is just pry being schooled to know time and time again - the FM our the first Refuge she has had. Plus she is no fool she knows she cannot really stay with Jon on the BW he would have to send her somewhere. In addition her experience of life has shown her only two people the Hound and JH who can move through 'her' world as not sheep. She is not going to be a knight err equivalent+ so she has found her best bet until something makes her change her mind or feel a need. At this point I can think of only a Bran message via wolf dream or Jon's apparent death. But I don't see her giving up Aryra to be no-one

I'm hopeful that Jon dies but comes back alive so his vows will be void in away, then he could focus on reclaiming Winterfell, because their best bet in defeating the others is uniting the north. So Arya could go to him and he wouldn't send her away, I don't think Jon would have it in him to send her away, not after everything that's happened. Or maybe that's wishful thinking...

[kephv]

She was actually - but she lacked the money for passage. She rejected other distant relatives. The thing about actively running is she well knows she is just pry being schooled to know time and time again - the FM our the first Refuge she has had. Plus she is no fool she knows she cannot really stay with Jon on the BW he would have to send her somewhere. In addition her experience of life has shown her only two people the Hound and JH who can move through 'her' world as not sheep. She is not going to be a knight err equivalent+ so she has found her best bet until something makes her change her mind or feel a need. At this point I can think of only a Bran message via wolf dream or Jon's apparent death. But I don't see her giving up Aryra to be no-one

I mean her time with the FM, when she presumably could have left whenever she wanted. Of course, she's certainly been of two minds about it though. She even mentions she doesn't know what she wants, but it's clear power is the higher priority at the moment.

That's not to say she doesn't care about Jon, or won't care about his death. She'll probably be pretty furious over losing that last link to her former life, but I see her departure from Braavos being carefully planned, not a rash flight to vengeance. Basically, she'll continue walking the line as she been has, gaining ever more power along the way.

[Words of Winter]

Izembaro is acting as a mummer, but he's a FM. I assume setting up this playhouse was all part of the FM carrying out their next contract.

Arya pretty much ruined that plan because an envoy lost a man there to one of the mummers.

I apologize if this was already commented on. Izembaro may be a faceless man, but I don't think so. I think he is in the service of the FM as an adjunct or an asset, much like Brusco in AFFC. The adjuncts are normal people who facilitate the clandestine service of the FM. They allow the FM to train and assist when necessary, much like you would see in spy novels of the cia, kgb (fsb) and mossad. The are not a part of the FM organization but continue to facilitate it an in return get paid in some sort of compensation (not necessarily money.)

Based on this hypothesis, I believe Izembaro is the go-to asset to teach FM alcolytes how to act or become their new character. It is one thing to change a face, but changing ones gait, cadence, speech, accent, even expressions support or hinders the total transformation of the FM from one person to another. The FM must be able to melt, not just in appearance, but in style, subtance and cultural idiosyncracies and who better to train a FM than a master thespian.

Just a theory, but it fits what we know so far of the super secret and very small FM order.

Edit: Quote button didn't seem to work.

[Rhaegars Heir]

I don't think they'll do anything, they'll tell him to fuck off, go tell the queen she's not getting any Braavosi money until she pays her debts, bitchez. Why execute him or put him in prison? How would this further any agenda of the IB?

but what if bumps into Justin Massey? which might happen

[Tormund's]

A lot of people are speculating that there was some type of hit or contract that Arya was sent to carry out on behest of the KM. I never got the impression that anything that happened was sanctioned by the him or the order. As I see it, she has been sent to the mummers as a part of her training. Where better to learn how to inhabit the role of a new face? She is simply in another part of her training and she crosses paths with Raff. I don't think the KM has much, if any, interest in the envoy. Arya saw her chance and took it, despite knowing that it will likely land her in deep sh...

[Sand Snake No. 9]

but what if bumps into Justin Massey? which might happen

I'm hoping that Swyft and Massey cross paths, but who knows if Massey will even be able to leave the North, between the weather and the chaos on the Wall.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

The whole issue over just how much of Mercy's personality and memories could be seeping in, so to speak, and what Arya may be juggling or dealing with and how difficult all this could be is really intriguing. There are times where you can wonder if it's really happening - fuss and feathers or the wolf dream being referred to as a nightmare, just as other times we know Arya is in the driver's seat and even times when Arya seems to be pushing herself into the Mercy persona. But it may not even be an issue and it's something we will have to wait and see more on.

It rehashes an older curiosity of mine that has not been fully appeased - Jaqen being named. "Even in the burning barn, with walls of flame towering all around and him in chains, he had not seemed so distraught as he did now." It's been dissected and discussed several times already but I always wanted more specifics - was Jaqen his 'true' identity and if not why would he have to actually kill himself when he could merely change identities like Arya seems to plan on "killing" Mercy, and so on. If Mercy swore to take a life for someone, like Jaqen did for her, would she have to really kill herself if they 'named' Mercy? And so on.

Just more questions but I do wonder if there really is some type of possible 'melding' going on, just how far are the repercussions, and if it is it does sound like a stronger magic and bond similar to warging? Not to make a mountain out of a mole hill, I just get curious over the details like I would really love to know who the guard on duty with Raff was even though it's of no consequence.

All of this also reminds me of this interview with Martin (particularly the parts in red)

It's been pointed out that a lot of characters in A Dance With Dragons are losing their names, and their very identities, as a result of intense circumstances. What's that about?

Arya has been doing it for some time, actually. Arya has gone through a dozen different identities, even getting to Braavos — where the ultimate goal of the Faceless Men is to become no-one, and to be able to assume identities as one assumes a suit of clothes. But yes, identity is one of the things that I'm playing with in this series as a whole, and in this particular book — what is it that makes us who we are? Is it our birth, our blood, our position in the world? Or something more integral to us? Our values our memories, et cetera.

Usually in a heroic fantasy series when someone loses their identity, you expect that to be followed by them regaining their selfhood in some dramatic way, or taking some heroic action that reasserts who they really are. Do you feel a responsibility to subvert that? Or play with that trope?

I'm certainly playing with it. There are different ways of assuming identities. Some of them I try to get at in books, and it's a little bit reflected in the chapter titles. In some cases, it's just someone putting on a mask. I mean Qwentyn Martell and his companions assume false names at several points during their journey from Dorne to Meereen. They assume different roles and different identities, but it never really affects who they are. When they're in private, they're still the people that they have always been. When you're dealing with Arya and what she's going through, or you're dealing with Theon... you're dealing with something much, much deeper there, where the original identity is being threatened or kind of broken down by one means or another, and maybe is in danger of being lost entirely.

I believe that the real threat to the identity, that GRRM is speaking of in the interview, does not come from meddling with the "faces" identities, but from letting go of her own and becoming a servant of the many faced god and nothing more. It's not about forgetting or getting confused IMO.

The thing with Jaqen is, I believe, a case where self preservation trumps religious convictions. It is one thing to face death as an inevitable fate in an accident and quite another to have to kill yourself without wanting to.

I mean her time with the FM, when she presumably could have left whenever she wanted. Of course, she's certainly been of two minds about it though. She even mentions she doesn't know what she wants, but it's clear power is the higher priority at the moment.

She was proposed with a few alternatives but non of them included safe conduct to where ever she wanted. They never offered to take her to the Wall and leave her there, she was only offered free passage on a ship to Westeros (Gulltown and Kings Landing, iirc) and then to be left on her own. After her time in the Riverlands she had realized thet she couldn't be safe on her own.

Her home was gone, her parents dead, and all her brothers slain but Jon Snow on the Wall. That was where she had wanted to go. She told the captain as much, but even the iron coin did not sway him. Arya never seemed to find the places she set out to reach.