R+L =J, v. 77

[Ser Creighton]

So

a mention of Rhaegar, a blue rose and... a wolf pelt giving way to, well, fire.

yeah but the fire had nothing to do with the wolf dying, that was all Tywin. It's hard to be symbolic of fire killing a wolf that was already killed. Besides the foreshadowing would not indicate conflict but rather victory. Now if the wolf pelt liked really hot baths and only the hair burned off but the skin was ok, then you would have something.

[Ygrain]

Just came across this:

Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

I'd say it is a safe bet that Jon will be snowed with a couple more fabulous ancestral blades but never the one he really wants :P

[Ser Creighton]

That's interesting, but if that's the case it wasn't clear to me. Though it could well be that they were reinforcing the red and orange theme with it. However,

did anyone else notice the name of the blue rose was a

dusk rose? Dawn & dusk. Ice & fire, etc.

Yes and hell yes, and what do people call Westeros in Essos?

the sunset kingdom. The red orange flower called harpy gold could also symbolize a future assassination attempt or just point to the Harpy being bad. Like I said it's probably just me. You know I get a little goofy when I see three. 3 heads of the flower, come on your the color guy. But the way 3 separate flowers :). I am writing something associated with that symbolism funny enough, not from the show. Not exactly the same but that was a pretty interesting use of those flowers in more ways than one. Not even associated with the usual dragon stuff either.

[FittleLinger]

Just came across this:

Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

I'd say it is a safe bet that Jon will be snowed with a couple more fabulous ancestral blades but never the one he really wants :P

Or, you know, swords as in swordsmen, an army :P

[J. Stargaryen]

Just came across this:

Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

I'd say it is a safe bet that Jon will be snowed with a couple more fabulous ancestral blades but never the one he really wants :P

For a while I've taken that as a hint about the Iron Throne, which means that Jon will ascend it as a Stark (or Snow, per butterbumps!) rather than Targaryen. That is, if he does ascend it at all. It could also mean that he'll refuse the IT because of his vow, since it would be the honorable thing to do, and Lord Eddard Stark was honorable, if nothing else.

[Ygrain]

Or, you know, swords as in swordsmen, an army :P

For a while I've taken that as a hint about the Iron Throne, which means that Jon will ascend it as a Stark (or Snow, per butterbumps!) rather than Targaryen. That is, if he does ascend it at all. It could also mean that he'll refuse the IT because of his vow, since it would be the honorable thing to do, and Lord Eddard Stark was honorable, if nothing else.

I was thinking in terms of Darksister etc :-)

"Jon... you are the son of Rhaegar's Targaryen and this is your heritage..."

/shucks, not again an ancestral sword from a guy I'm totally not interested in/

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes and hell yes, and what do people call Westeros in Essos?

the sunset kingdom. The red orange flower called harpy gold could also symbolize a future assassination attempt or just point to the Harpy being bad. Like I said it's probably just me. You know I get a little goofy when I see three. 3 heads of the flower, come on your the color guy. But the way 3 separate flowers :). I am writing something associated with that symbolism funny enough, not from the show. Not exactly the same but that was a pretty interesting use of those flowers in more ways than one. Not even associated with the usual dragon stuff either.

Wrt to the Sunset Kingdom, exactly. :)

[FittleLinger]

I was thinking in terms of Darksister etc :-)

"Jon... you are the son of Rhaegar's Targaryen and this is your heritage..."

/shucks, not again an ancestral sword from a guy I'm totally not interested in/

I know what you meant. But, if this foreshadows anything, I find it more likely to be a situation like:

Aegon being exposed as fake or dying, Jon being exposed as who he really is, some Targ loyalists (swords) try to back Jon up but he refuses, because he is still Ned's son. Or this among other reasons he might have, of course.

[Independent George]

We're approaching 400, but I had a question: should metatextual evidence (like Jon's mother being a shibboleth for D&D when they pitched the series) be included in the FAQ?

[Ygrain]

We're approaching 400, but I had a question: should metatextual evidence (like Jon's mother being a shibboleth for D&D when they pitched the series) be included in the FAQ?

You mean, together with the pearls of wisdom like "Jon doesn't know who his parents are, er, who his mother is"? :-)

[FittleLinger]

You mean, together with the pearls of wisdom like "Jon doesn't know who his parents are, er, who his mother is"? :-)

Yeah, and the fact that it can be figured out from book 1 alone, as stated by Martin and his editor :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yes and hell yes, and what do people call Westeros in Essos?

the sunset kingdom. The red orange flower called harpy gold could also symbolize a future assassination attempt or just point to the Harpy being bad. Like I said it's probably just me. You know I get a little goofy when I see three. 3 heads of the flower, come on your the color guy. But the way 3 separate flowers :). I am writing something associated with that symbolism funny enough, not from the show. Not exactly the same but that was a pretty interesting use of those flowers in more ways than one. Not even associated with the usual dragon stuff either.

If I had to guess I would say the poison flower will be what hizdar/shavepate tries to poison Dany with at the pit. It is just a hint to show viewers that poison happens in Slaver's BAy so watch out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah, and the fact that it can be figured out from book 1 alone, as stated by Martin and his editor :)

It's like the 1st or 2nd Ned chapter, he is thinking about LYanna and thinks (paraphrasing) "I've been keeping this terrible secret for 14 years". Then like 2 pages later it's a Jon chapter and he thinks about being 14 years old. It's right there at the beginning of GOT, as far as literature goes it's a pretty big hint.

[Han Snow]

So, if Ned is a great swordsman and Jon isn't, it's undoubtedly a hint that he is not Ned's son :P

Strangely enough, that thought actually crossed my mind.

Any time! :cheers:

Also,

I agree about saying Robb was better than him was an odd change, though as Sam points out, Jon is good at everything. In the books it's never spelled out that Jon was jealous, but we do get him being told he'll never be the Lord of Winterfell by Robb (not unkindly, but still), and the implication was that it stung. I think it's okay, and plays up Jon's melancholy nature (like father, like son!).

I guess it's okay. Yes. I enjoyed the episode much better after the second viewing.

Also:

If you pause the screen when Joff opens the White Book, you can read the complete page of Ser Gerold Hightower and bits about Ser Arthur Dayne. Though, there is nothing concrete that could shed some new light on R+L=J

[Ygrain]

It's like the 1st or 2nd Ned chapter, he is thinking about LYanna and thinks (paraphrasing) "I've been keeping this terrible secret for 14 years". Then like 2 pages later it's a Jon chapter and he thinks about being 14 years old. It's right there at the beginning of GOT, as far as literature goes it's a pretty big hint.

And in his very first chapter, he says outright that he is not the type to sleep around. I can sooo see GRRM cackling evilly while writing these!

[Ser Creighton]

Something just hit me, and since we are talking about the show a bit, everyone remember last seasons ending? Remember that little thing I did on inverse symbolism and obvious and obscure parallels? Dany is getting carried off by the crowd. Well didn't Jon also get carried off though his symbolism is inverted? Just a thought.

[J. Stargaryen]

Strangely enough, that thought actually crossed my mind.

I guess it's okay. Yes. I enjoyed the episode much better after the second viewing.

Also:

If you pause the screen when Joff opens the White Book, you can read the complete page of Ser Gerold Hightower and bits about Ser Arthur Dayne. Though, there is nothing concrete that could shed some new light on R+L=J

I caught that second spoiler bit too. I was pleasantly surprised. But yeah, nothing new.

Though it does state that Aerys dispatched Hightower to retrieve Rhaegar, though those aren't the exact words. I imagine there is a screen cap floating around somewhere by now.

[Alia of the knife]

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

Regarding the matter of Jons vow, I think Martin has given him the necessary "out" through his "death" to become what he needs to become and to do what he needs to do. Like the KG, the NW has fallen into corruption, with only a few who truly believe in their mission.

As with all things started with the best of intentions, over time they becomec corrupt, and the Wall is now associated with punishment rather than a thing of honor, so IMHO, I think the Wall will crumble under the weight of that corrosion, and in parallel to Danys Kalisar, the NW as well as some of the Wildings will have to make a decision to leave, or stay and follow Jon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Also:

If you pause the screen when Joff opens the White Book, you can read the complete page of Ser Gerold Hightower and bits about Ser Arthur Dayne. Though, there is nothing concrete that could shed some new light on R+L=J

Really? I'm totally going to try that :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

Regarding the matter of Jons vow, I think Martin has given him the necessary "out" through his "death" to become what he needs to become and to do what he needs to do. Like the KG, the NW has fallen into corruption, with only a few who truly believe in their mission.

As with all things started with the best of intentions, over time the Wall is now associated with punishment rather than a thing of honor, so IMHO, I think the Wall will crumble under the weight of that corrosion, and in parallel to Danys Kalisar, the NW as well as some of the Wildings will have to make a decision to leave, or stay and follow Jon.

Even on the show last night Cersei was talking about releasing Jaime from his Kings Guard vows, due to his broken arm, and the fact that Joffrrey (the king) would allow it.

Joffrey released Barristan from his vows, for no real reason.

From the WOIAF app we know that the Great Council was considering releasing Maester Aemon from his vows as a Maester so that he could be king instead of Egg.

Kings Guard, Maester of the Citadel and Nights Watch are all entered into with vows. there are precendences (?) to release people. Jon will be the same way. Either from him being mutinied and dying or from people finding out he is the son of the king.