Dating 9: resolving the cliffhangers of the last thread

[kungtotte]

Heh, I'd describe myself as a serial monogamist. I don't know what it is, but I guess it's just that if I like someone enough that I want to have a relationship with I like them enough that I want to be exclusive. That probably precludes me from any sort of open relationship situation too, since it would perforce be a pretty unbalanced situation with me not seeing anybody else. I haven't tried it but I'm thinking that's a recipe for disaster.

[Prince Alexander]

Personally, I am cynical about monogamy agreements.

People can lie. People can promise truthfully first, then cheat. People can promise truthfully, and not cheat, but then suffer in silence because it's not working out for them. People can promise, but mistrust you, get jealous and invade space ("you looked at that other girl!"). Yes, I suppose sometimes it works out and people end up in loving mono relationships for a long time. Not in my reality, though.

If 2 people want to be monogomous, they will be - no agreements required.

I never ask anyone for monogamy. If someone asks me to be mono, I tell them that they will never know who else I'm sleeping with, if I am mono or not, and that they should never ask me this again, or I will be gone from their life. This leads to women dropping me (good riddance), or never asking me for/about monogamy again.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Do I like any of them specially? Well I'll have to be pretty honest here: there are only two of them I'm interested in dating. We'll call them A and J. I've known both of them for a few years but for obvious reasons, I never pursued a romantic relationship. The other ladies I either knew from my high school years/freshman year of college or they just expressed interest in me via mutual friends while I was tied down and I'm backtracking to at least entertain them.

They've all been lovely but only A and J really have my eye. Well, there is a third lady I would love to get to know but I just don't know if that can happen. We will call her C. C's best friend was my very first valentine four years ago. We never got into a relationship and it never got beyond casually talking but the friend, D, is still a good friend of mines as well.

I've only ever had one conversation with C but she completely took my breath away (not that she knows that, you know me Lily, I'm always calm and collected). I've thought about her since then. Ironically, that conversation was when I was trying to get in touch with D via FaceTime to wish her a happy birthday but C picked up and we hit it off for about 30 minutes.

Actually, I could really use some advice on to handle this situation because I really want C. Lol

[deleted01]

Personally, I am cynical about monogamy agreements.

People can lie. People can promise truthfully first, then cheat. People can promise truthfully, and not cheat, but then suffer in silence because it's not working out for them. People can promise, but mistrust you, get jealous and invade space ("you looked at that other girl!"). Yes, I suppose sometimes it works out and people end up in loving mono relationships for a long time. Not in my reality, though.

If 2 people want to be monogomous, they will be - no agreements required.

I never ask anyone for monogamy. If someone asks me to be mono, I tell them that they will never know who else I'm sleeping with, if I am mono or not, and that they should never ask me this again, or I will be gone from their life. This leads to women dropping me (good riddance), or never asking me for/about monogamy again.

Waitwut. PA, I respect you and your opinion, but are you saying that monogamous relationships rarely work out? I'm interested in hearing why, because the impression I'm getting is that you think that everyone is a cheater and a liar, and will eventually hurt their partner in such a way. Which I really hope isn't the case.

[Kalbear]

Well, all relationships rarely work out. That's not a particularly interesting statement. Monogamous or no, most people have significantly more relationships that they end than just end due to natural causes.

Prince Alexander, have you ever been in love? If you have, it would be really educational to hear about it.

[Prince Alexander]

Well, all relationships rarely work out. That's not a particularly interesting statement. Monogamous or no, most people have significantly more relationships that they end than just end due to natural causes.

Drac, as Kal points out, all relationships universally rarely work out. Monogamy is not necessarily the cause, but I don't think it's helping, either.

Of course, we should also agree on how to define a relationship "working out" in the context of this conversation.

In the context of traditional monogamous relationship, I would say that "working out" means the relationship continues until death of one partner, or separation on the grounds not related to monogamy setup (for example, "they loved each other but decided to split because he wanted kids, and she didn't").

In this context, I'm not talking about those other reasons for splitting up, though.

In my experience most couples that declare monogamy, do split up due to reasons associated with this agreement. So: jealousy, mistrust, actual cheating, invasion of space.

Some couples do not split up, but live a continuously "settled" lifestyle, where one or both partners do not love the other, but choose to remain in a relationship due to various circumstances (kids, no better alternative, laziness and dependency).

I can't think of a single couple of my generation (1980-1990 dob) living in a continuous(3+ years of mono) happy monogomous relationship. I lie about it when someone needs cheering up, but hey, let's be honest.

Prince Alexander, have you ever been in love? If you have, it would be really educational to hear about it.

Absolutely, I'd say 3 times, 2 of those in my adulthood, the first one doesn't really count I guess. I am currently in love with 2 women.

One of them has been in relationship with another guy for a few months, we have not slept together/dated since they went mono. The other I've dated for a year and we are about to end our relationship. I do not see myself falling out of love with either of these women despite not dating them anymore.

Once I can honestly say that I am in love, I love unconditionally. I suppose that the subject of my love can do something terrifying to cause me to fall out of love, but I don't see in the realm of possibility outside of them going crazy. I also do not need to stay in the relationship to stay in love. In both cases I broke/will break off the relationship and stay in love. Relationship and love are entirely separate meanings for me. One needs to be in love to have a meaningful relationship, but one does not need to be in a relationship in order to continue being in love.

Not sure if this is educational. I think the whole debate quickly becomes meaningless because different people define love and relationships differently. This is simply how I define those things.

[Kalbear]

Interesting. So you view love as monodirectional - you can love someone, but it is immaterial to you whether they love you back. '

it's also interesting that you equate monogamy with an invasion of space; the two aren't normally correlative. Unless you're talking about the 'I need more space' meaning "I need to fuck other people" definition.

[Prince Alexander]

Interesting. So you view love as monodirectional - you can love someone, but it is immaterial to you whether they love you back. '

it's also interesting that you equate monogamy with an invasion of space; the two aren't normally correlative. Unless you're talking about the 'I need more space' meaning "I need to fuck other people" definition.

Yes. I could narrow the definition down to mutual love only if I could read others' thoughts, but I can't (alas).

Mutual love is possible in theory, but to me, it doesn't exist, because it cannot be proven. The only thing I know for certain is my own mind. On that note I also call b/s on anyone who claims to be in a mutually loving relationship. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But noone can be certain. At best you can say: "I love her, and I think she loves me." or "I love her and she told me she loves me".

I think you're misreading me on the invasion of space part. Invasion of space happens when one mono partner becomes invasive because they want to make sure the other isn't cheating. Examples: checking partner's phone, going through fb or private belongings for evidence, checking up on partner when they are away, trying to spend as much time with the partner as possible.

[Maithanet]

Mutual love is possible in theory, but to me, it doesn't exist, because it cannot be proven. The only thing I know for certain is my own mind. On that note I also call b/s on anyone who claims to be in a mutually loving relationship. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But noone can be certain. At best you can say: "I love her, and I think she loves me." or "I love her and she told me she loves me".

Personally, I find that ridiculous. I think "I love her, and everything she says and does for the past five years indicates she loves me" is pretty damn strong. You prove love every single day, by the way that you act and the things you do.

I feel like if love cannot be proven, then what in life can? I can't prove that I'm not adopted, but my parents have acted like my parents for my entire life, so why would I assume otherwise? I can't prove that my dog won't maul me death when I get home, but she always seems happy whenever she sees me, so I assume that she'll continue to do so tonight.

It is possible that in the future my fiancee and I may not love each other, and if that begins to happen, I'm sure that the signs will be obvious (to each of us anyway). But just because that possibility exists changes nothing about the past that we have had, our present feelings for one another, and our potential future together.

[deleted01]

Bit of a bleak outlook, isn't it? While I like to think I'm a practical person, I don't get into a relationship with the view that it won't work out. Seems kinda defeatist to me.

Happiness is also subjective. Despite the issues I've faced in my relationship, I would say that I'm happy. And I'd like to respectfully disagree - mutual love can be shown, through actions on both sides.

Edit: Maithanet said it better than I could.

[Prince Alexander]

It is possible that in the future my fiancee and I may not love each other, and if that begins to happen, I'm sure that the signs will be obvious (to each of us anyway). But just because that possibility exists changes nothing about the past that we have had, our present feelings for one another, and our potential future together.

Absolutely, and I'm totally arguing semantics there. Whether mutual love can be proven or not is actually absolutely irrelevant.

And for the record, I can totally act like I love someone. They will never know the difference. It's not difficult - people believe what they want to believe. This is my retirement plan.

I feel like if love cannot be proven, then what in life can? I can't prove that I'm not adopted, but my parents have acted like my parents for my entire life, so why would I assume otherwise? I can't prove that my dog won't maul me death when I get home, but she always seems happy whenever she sees me, so I assume that she'll continue to do so tonight.

Absolutely. This is why I don't trust pre 1900 history. I choose to believe depending on source, but I can't be certain. In the modern times we have much photo and video recording that makes proving and trusting easier, though, but still many things are open to interpretation.

Look, it's not black and white. Yes, there is 0.01% chance that your parents conspired to make it seem like you're their child and even had the doctors/nurses/hospital to all agree to act as if that's true. But there is 99.99% chance that's probably crazy and you're their child after all. Same with figuring out if someone loves you. Sometimes you can tell they don't. Or it's 50/50. Or it's 99.99%.

By the way, you know dogs and other affectionate animals have gone crazy and mauled their owners/kids, right? The odds of this happening are tiny, but it's not out of the realm of possibilty.

I'm not arguing that there is an elephant in the dark room just because you can't prove there isn't. I am arguing that there may be an elephant in the dark room, and you can't prove otherwise.

Bit of a bleak outlook, isn't it? While I like to think I'm a practical person, I don't get into a relationship with the view that it won't work out. Seems kinda defeatist to me.

Happiness is also subjective. Despite the issues I've faced in my relationship, I would say that I'm happy. And I'd like to respectfully disagree - mutual love can be shown, through actions on both sides.

Edit: Maithanet said it better than I could.

It is bleak if your happiness depends on other people. My happiness depends only on myself (I'm really hoping that I'm not delusional when I say this. But I honestly believe it).

When I get into a relationship, I'm happy about the experience, and I am not attached to the result of it working out or not. I've mentioned before that I believe that almost any continuous relationship is settling by one of the partners, and therefore every continuous relationship is loveless (or has at most 1 partner who is in love). There are exceptions (especially in the older generations), but I can't think of many in my life (Brad Pitt and Angeline Jolie, I guess? I don't know them personally. Brad is probably settling for some reason outside of my realm of undestanding, but he's a much better man than me and I won't pretend to have a better knowledge of his own life. Kanye and Kim, for the reason that Kanye is chaotic and possibly crazy? I can't imagine KK being a person capable of love, though, at least not my kind of love. Obama couple, maybe, but they both have too much incentive to settle ).

I keep relationships short and tend to break them off when feelings are strongest. All that is mundane, I think is the killer of love, and love is best preserved before relationship becomes mundane (happened with my last love, although we've since reignited it, and then re-broke up again, weird scenario). I don't get off on heartbreaking and breakups while in love - if that's what it seems like. In my 12 years of adulthood I loved twice, that's not alot, I think. I get off much more on short romances and casual dating.

I am ok with the idea of a loving mono relationship for myself at some point, but I think odds are I'll win the lottery before that happens... and I never bought a ticket in my life.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Personally, I find that ridiculous. I think "I love her, and everything she says and does for the past five years indicates she loves me" is pretty damn strong. You prove love every single day, by the way that you act and the things you do.

I feel like if love cannot be proven, then what in life can? I can't prove that I'm not adopted, but my parents have acted like my parents for my entire life, so why would I assume otherwise? I can't prove that my dog won't maul me death when I get home, but she always seems happy whenever she sees me, so I assume that she'll continue to do so tonight.

It is possible that in the future my fiancee and I may not love each other, and if that begins to happen, I'm sure that the signs will be obvious (to each of us anyway). But just because that possibility exists changes nothing about the past that we have had, our present feelings for one another, and our potential future together.

I tend to stay out of these threads because I'm not actively dating right now, but I just wanted to point out the objective awesomeness of this post. Well done.

[Yagathai]

V has become aware that in order to keep me there would have to be major life changes for him with regards to living in my state and giving up polyamory. He says that he wants to do that. Right now, I skirted major discussion of it because I want him to do those things out of his own desires rather than mine. I also think he needs to sit down and think about how this could work in reality before I believe in it. But, he's here until the end of May and we have some time we can still spend together.

The problem isn't how he feels now. The problem is how he's going to feel after the honeymoon period wears off (see my quote in Mandy's sig) and now it's your fault that he isn't where he wants to be.

[deleted01]

The problem isn't how he feels now. The problem is how he's going to feel after the honeymoon period wears off (see my quote in Mandy's sig) and now it's your fault that he isn't where he wants to be.

That's a good point. A frank discussion might be in order. I'm in a similar position in that I'm moving away from somewhere I love, but it's not only to be closer to my boyfriend, so I can't really turn around and blame him if things go tits up.

(On my phone so can't multi-quote.) PA, I always appreciate your honesty in these matters. But once again I'm a little confused at your approach to life. It seems like you break things off with people when things are going well because you're afraid to base your happiness on someone else, even a little bit. I don't rely on my boyfriend - or anyone else for that matter - to make me happy, and while I won't dispute that someone could be happy while completely on their own, does having good people in your life that do generally make you happy really do much harm?

Eta: the idea of settling confuses me. At times I've felt like I deserve to be treated better, but with open discussion and through working together I believe that most things can get better. Finding someone to share a portion of my life with - whether that's a year or 25 years or forever - is what's most important to me, I think. A partnership is very important.

[Maithanet]

I'm not arguing that there is an elephant in the dark room just because you can't prove there isn't. I am arguing that there may be an elephant in the dark room, and you can't prove otherwise.

I can't prove there's no elephant, but when I haven't heard any elephants tromping around, stepped in any elephant poop, etc, it seems very strange to assume that there would be one, just because I can't prove otherwise. And when you say things like:

Mutual love is possible in theory, but to me, it doesn't exist, because it cannot be proven.

It says that "I'm assuming that they do not love me, because I do not know for certain that they do". Which seems hopelessly pessimistic to me. Trust is an essential part of love. I don't "verify" that my fiancee is not cheating by checking her phone. I trust that she is not cheating because she has never lied to me about anything. In my experience, assuming the worst about your partner wrt trust is usually either the cry of a guilty soul, or a defense mechanism that some people use to protect themselves from being hurt. Either way it serves to keep a distance between yourself and potential partners that, while understandable, is limiting in a long term relationship.

But obviously what you want and what I want in an LTR are very different.

[Yagathai]

That's a good point. A frank discussion might be in order. I'm in a similar position in that I'm moving away from somewhere I love, but it's not only to be closer to my boyfriend, so I can't really turn around and blame him if things go tits up.

Well, not with that kind of defeatist attitude you can't!

[deleted01]

Well, not with that kind of defeatist attitude you can't!

:laugh: I said can't. Doesn't mean I won't.

[Inigima]

I think you'll find that "can't" does, in fact, mean that.

[karaddin]

I think Drac meant she can't legitimately or reasonably pin the move on him, but that doesn't mean irrational thoughts of resentment won't creep in anyway.

ETA: I also don't think it was meant seriously.

[Inigima]

Yes, karaddin, I know. :rolleyes: